WEBVTT kind: captions lang: en 1 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:41.730 Hi. 2 00:00:44.310 --> 00:00:44.850 Hello. 3 00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:46.740 Can you hear me or not. 4 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:47.370 I can hear you. 5 00:00:48.690 --> 00:00:50.070 OK, I can hear you two. 6 00:00:51.930 --> 00:00:52.770 Are you doing 7 00:00:53.250 --> 00:00:54.990 Fabulous. It's wonderful to meet you. 8 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:59.340 Nice meeting you too. I want to project you what a project, you've got going. 9 00:00:59.790 --> 00:01:12.360 Thank you very kindly I think yours is great as well. Definitely something that I've been thinking about myself as as I as I, you know, get into the end of the age of seeing older trans people, which is not something I had the pleasure of when I was younger, so 10 00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:19.890 Yeah, it's forgotten it really is, as many other people probably will tell you a pretty forgotten group not only our own 11 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:34.740 Community but old people at large. Really, would you be if there's a time when you become invisible and just because you all, let alone invisible. If you are successful in 12 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:51.600 So called passing. So with that, I've been to, I go to conferences, a lot when I can. And usually, I'm the oldest one there, or at least amongst the oldest but usually the oldest and 13 00:01:53.700 --> 00:02:01.920 And the things I was had done that I had some little bit of credit for before what I was younger or long forgotten. 14 00:02:03.090 --> 00:02:12.000 And and I'll give you one, for instance, before we start your is this been about 10 years ago maybe when share son. 15 00:02:12.870 --> 00:02:26.670 Came out and wrote his book. Yes, he was at gender Odyssey in Seattle sitting in the authors table. Jamie green was next to him and I approached the table known James a long time, of course, but I'd never met. 16 00:02:27.870 --> 00:02:33.420 Chaz before and I was going to buy his book, and I asked him to autograph it for me and 17 00:02:33.990 --> 00:02:47.610 He still. What's your name, and I said you'd patents. So he wrote it, you know, and he wrote a little something and and I thanked him and paid for it and left and James told me later, he said, you know what happened after you left the table. And I said, no, what he says. 18 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.510 Cast says, Who is that old guy anyway. 19 00:02:54.150 --> 00:02:59.190 And James said something like, if it wasn't for that old guy and people like him. You wouldn't be here. 20 00:02:59.670 --> 00:03:09.870 Absolutely, yeah. So we, I suppose, as you talk to other people. You may or may die here. Those same sort of reflections depending on 21 00:03:10.410 --> 00:03:13.380 Exactly what this project is trying to do. I mean, there's, there's 22 00:03:13.770 --> 00:03:23.040 It's one thing to to start, you know, looking at historical documents and so forth. It's a completely other thing to remember, the people who did though the activism that allowed 23 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:28.980 History to change and allow that the the certainly the changes that have happened for trans folks to take place. So 24 00:03:29.220 --> 00:03:36.570 I think it's really important that we get these stories just exactly like yours that we need to get these stories preserved for future generations to know where that came from. 25 00:03:37.950 --> 00:03:46.350 Okay, my partner is just telling me. Goodbye, she's leaving to run some errands. So we'll, we'll be here with my little dog all the two of us heard 26 00:03:47.040 --> 00:03:58.470 It will be a. Yeah. And there's a lot. I know my stuff and I have about 60 of sorry 60 office boxes full of materials. I've collected over the years. Okay. 27 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:05.640 I mean for almost 50 years now it'll be 50 years next year that I started transitions. So 28 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:06.210 Wow. 29 00:04:07.650 --> 00:04:17.130 And those are going to Aarons collection you Vic, but he keeps every time he sees me, he says, June when we're going through stuff. I said Aaron. I'm not dead yet and 30 00:04:19.650 --> 00:04:28.950 I'm doing some research on my own trying to do a little writing, although I'm not an author or writer, I can write a little bit, but I'm not good at it. 31 00:04:32.130 --> 00:04:36.510 I tell them I don't want to have to travel 1200 miles to visit my own stuff. 32 00:04:38.190 --> 00:04:47.520 So there you go. You can have it where you know later on when I'm at least when I'm finished doing what I want to do with it. And then it may still happen before I'm gone, but I'm not so sure. 33 00:04:48.090 --> 00:04:59.910 Piece tickets. So I do have your list of questions and thank you for preparing that and I'll look I of course what you do take the lead and guide me through what you do want to ask and what what can be left 34 00:05:00.630 --> 00:05:08.430 I do have more time it's then the two hours use said, but I know I'm also conscious of your time as well. 35 00:05:09.210 --> 00:05:16.290 Well thank you kindly for that. So the first thing I didn't, I didn't receive the consent form back for me. And we can do the signing of that and so forth later. 36 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:17.490 Okay. 37 00:05:18.030 --> 00:05:20.160 Very important. That's the one thing I need to make sure that you 38 00:05:20.340 --> 00:05:21.000 sent it to them. 39 00:05:21.870 --> 00:05:25.530 And that's fine. And I expected that the 40 00:05:27.450 --> 00:05:34.740 I'm not computer savvy. I didn't know how to turn a PDF form that I can't sign electronically into something that I can 41 00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:37.830 Okay, why because it was a Word document to make it easier than 42 00:05:38.280 --> 00:05:51.270 Okay, that would be great because then I can do because I can't hear. I don't know how to do convert a PDF into something I can assign electronically. If you know if you know how you can teach me but that's out here, they're here for this time. 43 00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:52.620 So, 44 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:53.790 No problem. 45 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:55.200 Yeah, I can take care of that. 46 00:05:55.290 --> 00:06:13.590 So, you have my verbal consent and ON TAPE SAYING THAT yes you can take me and you can use it for the purposes that you have listed and I really don't care if you use it for other purposes at all. I have nothing to hide. I've been out and open all my life. I'm not 47 00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:26.370 And I appreciate the chance that you said that once you have things transcribed or however you have a way to get it back to me before it goes into the records, just for errors that might be there. 48 00:06:26.850 --> 00:06:35.700 Exactly, exactly. That's nice. You got no chance to review it. So you need it for your own records as well as you know if you got a second thought about something, he said, oh, and at that piece out that weekend. 49 00:06:36.840 --> 00:06:39.030 Yeah. Okay, great. 50 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:50.130 So let's start. And as I talked to you a little bit about me the letter and so forth, you probably know, but we're looking less of a sort of a life history and what we really want to get to know is how people activism. 51 00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:50.970 And so 52 00:06:51.120 --> 00:07:03.090 I'll start off with some, just a quick demographic questions like, you know, just fill in the blank sort of ones and then we'll move into some of the good, the meteor bets where we're going to talk about, you know, the change processes and things like that. 53 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:04.380 Okay, great. 54 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:09.720 So your name and pronouns, I noticed you patent and I know you go by. He is this correct 55 00:07:10.140 --> 00:07:11.460 Yes. Okay. 56 00:07:11.580 --> 00:07:11.910 Yeah. 57 00:07:12.090 --> 00:07:13.110 How old are you right now to 58 00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:15.030 79 59 00:07:15.150 --> 00:07:17.040 I mean I'm encountering 60 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:21.210 A long way to go. And when were you born 61 00:07:22.500 --> 00:07:26.760 July 8 1940 in St. Louis, Missouri. 62 00:07:28.350 --> 00:07:29.310 And where do you live now. 63 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:39.060 I live in a little town called Yuba City. Why you be a City, California, which is about 50 miles north of Sacramento. 64 00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:48.870 Small town. Yeah. Especially, I suppose it's about six, I call it small got 60,000 people were right on the edge. 65 00:07:50.130 --> 00:08:03.090 This is an area in the in the valley area of California that has we grow fruit and nuts locally. So we have and rice. So we're right on the edge of quarters, literally, where we live, and 66 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:14.010 All along the route that we go into work to Sacramento, the whole highways lined with Tom and prune and walnuts and 67 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:32.490 All kinds of fruit and then rice fields. This time of year, we have the flocks of ducks and geese coming down from the north that settle in the rice fields are flooded for the winter on purpose, and the ducks and geese move in for the whole winter and settling 68 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:35.490 Also really nice isn't beautiful area. 69 00:08:37.050 --> 00:08:38.520 That's where all our Canadian Geese are going 70 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:49.710 That's exactly it. Plus, even we even have the honkers from can chop island and Russia that come here of the snow geese and 71 00:08:50.580 --> 00:09:07.680 Just to a wide variety of waterbirds of all kinds. I mean literally all kinds. He we have snow eager its own all year long that run in the canals along the you know they they sort of live along the canals and the waterways, but they say over winter and all the rest of the move in. 72 00:09:08.790 --> 00:09:17.010 And it's mild enough here that we have hummingbirds over winter and some other birds that around your around there. So, 73 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:25.110 I'm a, I'm an animal nut is, you know, one of your questions was, what else do you do besides trans 74 00:09:27.210 --> 00:09:30.000 I'm starting to gather that from my my online research, have you that you're 75 00:09:30.150 --> 00:09:31.410 You're quite invested in the 76 00:09:31.410 --> 00:09:32.460 Animal relationships. 77 00:09:33.030 --> 00:09:39.060 I am, I am. Yeah, I'll tell you more about that when you ask more about what I did for a living. Okay. 78 00:09:39.090 --> 00:09:42.210 Well, I'll ask you right now. Are you employed or retired and what was your line of work. 79 00:09:42.270 --> 00:09:51.840 I'm semi retired. I work one day a week at a community mental health center as a physician assistant in psychiatry, so I prescribed medications. 80 00:09:52.410 --> 00:10:02.340 I can do all the duties, a doctor does the differences in California. We have to have a sort of, you know, an agreement with a doctor as a supervisor, but I never see a really 81 00:10:03.630 --> 00:10:10.440 It communicates with me by electronic means. If he has to. But that's rare so community mental health waster homeless. 82 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:18.000 chronically mentally ill, the highest tier of mental health issues. So they're schizophrenia psychosis. 83 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:31.500 Long term bipolar disorders and all things with most of them are very unstable. Unfortunately, even with meds because they don't follow through the other part of that is about 85% of my clients are 84 00:10:32.670 --> 00:10:36.900 Drug and Alcohol dependent long with their mental illness. So 85 00:10:37.410 --> 00:10:38.280 We start by getting 86 00:10:38.310 --> 00:10:39.900 It, you need to do to do that job. 87 00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:51.900 Well, I, I've been doing psychiatry. I graduated from USC school of medicine physician assistant program in 1982 and I've been doing psychiatry ever sets. 88 00:10:52.590 --> 00:11:00.450 And all kinds of settings. Usually, for the most part I did 10 years of drug research, believe it or not, psychic research. 89 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:08.160 I've done everything from Adolescent Medicine to adult medicine to geriatric medicine I've worked in hospitals and clinics. 90 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:20.910 Community Health clinics, you name it, because it's been a long career again almost 40 years and I have more I'm older and have more experience than all the doctors. I work with so 91 00:11:21.930 --> 00:11:29.370 You know, we, you just learn. It's kind of like when they say practice medicine. That's what you're doing. You learn what to do when you're in school or 92 00:11:29.910 --> 00:11:36.420 Most let's say a good Park, but then you have to practice. They keep learning and learning and you know we're required to have 93 00:11:36.990 --> 00:11:52.740 continuing medical education. I go beyond that. And since I especially. The other thing is people don't know. But just because I specialize in psychiatry doesn't save me from every six years, I have to take a national exam all over again. 94 00:11:54.180 --> 00:12:00.510 To keep my certification and it's not in psychiatry. It's in family practice stuff. 95 00:12:01.530 --> 00:12:08.430 Though I have to make sure that I'm keeping up by education there to even though I'm not writing prescriptions for that. 96 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:09.960 And 97 00:12:11.040 --> 00:12:11.550 It's okay. 98 00:12:12.540 --> 00:12:18.900 And moving along into the next couple of questions here. What's, how do you identify your race, ethnicity, your cultural heritage. 99 00:12:19.470 --> 00:12:27.480 Well, unfortunately, I say, unfortunately, I would. I was hoping I would find even some alien DNA in there of some sort. 100 00:12:29.010 --> 00:12:36.780 I am 99.4% white, white, white, white Scottish Irish English and Western European 101 00:12:38.250 --> 00:12:42.480 Per my PR my ancestry com DNA test. 102 00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:48.270 And you have any visible or invisible disabilities. 103 00:12:48.660 --> 00:13:01.140 I do I'm basically totally mine in the left I I look healthy because I'm always I always been heavy. I look as if I'm healthy. I am very hampered by movement of my shoulders. 104 00:13:01.710 --> 00:13:10.320 I have had hip replacement and both my shoulders need to be replaced. That was five years ago when they told me that I haven't done it. I can 105 00:13:12.810 --> 00:13:21.540 With pain there. So it's, it does hamper me and then about a year about almost three years ago now, I had a 106 00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:30.150 What can only be termed a mini stroke, although they didn't find any lesion on my brain that showed that there was a stroke. I had had to be 107 00:13:30.510 --> 00:13:39.780 Like a TI because for about 36 hours I lost the ability to express myself. I could speak, but it was not what I wanted to come out. I knew it, I knew it wasn't 108 00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:59.160 And I had some confusion that went away within 36 hours. No, no residuals of any of that no physical thing from this that event, but it keeps me I have chose voluntarily giving up driving, which I hate 109 00:14:00.180 --> 00:14:08.430 Because I thought if it happens, it can happen at any time and repeat itself. And I don't want to kill myself or somebody else my partner is 110 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:21.720 Basically has to help me with some dressing. So you know I can't reach my shoes and socks. Besides, I don't, as she says you never tie your shoes right your places are always crooked. 111 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:35.490 And helps me with putting putting my shirts on. And I can still button them and it takes me forever. So she helps with that. And sometimes if my pants are too tight. I have to suck it up and let her 112 00:14:36.870 --> 00:14:38.130 Get the button to reach to play. 113 00:14:40.290 --> 00:14:56.430 So, but other than otherwise. I'm pretty independent I'm no good at anything that requires lifting carrying long distances walking long distances. I have always been very heat and tolerant and I don't think anybody understands that unless you are yourself. 114 00:14:58.590 --> 00:15:06.300 With we have here in the valley in the summer, up to 110 temperatures for three or four more days in a row. 115 00:15:06.810 --> 00:15:17.730 The humidity is not so bad here. But if I went a couple years ago to Philadelphia was 99% humidity and 97 degrees. I thought I was going to die walking a block. 116 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:29.790 Wow, that's just a really, it's a, it's a, kind of, if you want to call it a handicap. It certainly is a hindrance that not a lot of people talk about, but that has been lifelong not something new. 117 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.540 As a red hat I sympathize quite a lot. 118 00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:45.090 Oh yeah, you do. You know your bare skin look a little like my grandson, who's has red hair and and he he had a lot of freckles. He didn't have the fair he had the Ferris good, but he had 119 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:51.660 He was had some his records were so big, when he was a kid. They were almost like blotches. The almost over. So 120 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.710 What's your, your family status. So I hear about a partner is there. And then there's grandchildren. 121 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:00.030 What's the answer so 122 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:16.680 Technically I'm a widower, I was married for 26 and a half years. My wife died almost six years ago from complications of kidney failure, congestive heart failure and a whole bunch of other illnesses. She was 123 00:16:17.730 --> 00:16:35.760 Basically incapacitated for 10 years before she died on dialysis for 10 years, line five years into that bedridden for most of that time and she died at home, which is what she wanted to do. The interesting thing though we don't, I don't want my partner is there's a reason for 124 00:16:37.170 --> 00:16:44.100 My partner does not want her name first or last name using anything I do. There's a reason that I won't go into that for a reason. 125 00:16:44.520 --> 00:16:54.930 But it's not because she's. I mean, we go everywhere together our close friends know about our relationship, but it's got to do with an old an old ex partner of hers, who 126 00:16:55.950 --> 00:17:07.020 Is still around the area and probably would create a see if he ever saw her name connected with mine. So your story with that goes my wife was dying. About six 127 00:17:09.120 --> 00:17:13.560 Or seven weeks, six or seven months before she passed away knew she was close to the end. 128 00:17:15.090 --> 00:17:24.750 She was talking with me say, you know, I don't want you to be alone when I die. And don't be afraid to go out and be with somebody else. I don't want you to be alone. I want you to be 129 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.080 feel loved and taken care of. And she said, and I know just the first and for you. 130 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:39.030 And so she chose my present partner in a way we had her my partner's ex husband. 131 00:17:40.350 --> 00:17:56.010 And my partner and my wife and I have been good friends for years. We rarely saw each other because of the distance we live from each other, but we kept in contact, all those years, and my partner then divorced about 15 years ago and 132 00:17:58.530 --> 00:17:59.100 And then 133 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:03.750 So she still kept in contact. He didn't 134 00:18:05.970 --> 00:18:09.180 About a year after my wife passed away. My partner and I 135 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:24.000 We realized that we really didn't care for each other, you know, and we need to be lot. We've we term ourselves life partners, we're not going anywhere. We don't want anybody else you're very compatible. She's a retired. 136 00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:38.310 School she retired from over 35 years almost 40 years of being everything within a school practice as a teacher first summer superintendent principal 137 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:57.150 Head of migrant education program in California. So that piece matches really well. And in fact, I'm set up at a computer that faces out of our kitchen. She set up one just back to back. Computers facing me so we're just over the table apart. 138 00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:13.350 Part of the time during the day and we're saying, oh, did you see that, oh, let me show you this. Oh, let me read this to you kind of stuff. And we really, really do have similar interests, I am very happy. She, she says she is too, and it is I'd never thought, I thought I'd be living in a 139 00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:21.090 500 square foot senior low cost income apartment by myself for the rest of my life. 140 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:30.240 She's done financially better than I ever did. I am us been thrift, if I if I got it. I spend it still 141 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:46.050 She, she's more practical and has really had a good investment counselor. Nobody's rich, but she's comfortable and what we do to make that fair is financially as we each pitch in 1500 dollars a month. 142 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:59.280 For possible cost mortgage expenses food dog food and all that and what's leftover goes into a slush fund for trips are our fun stuff. 143 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:07.050 And then we're pretty fair. Otherwise when we like it. I might buy tickets to a concert and next time, she'll buy the tickets, that sort of thing. 144 00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:18.120 So we didn't. I didn't myself. She said, you don't have to do that. I've got plenty, it's not gonna hurt me. I give you everything you need or what I can't do it. I've never done it start now. 145 00:20:19.830 --> 00:20:22.590 That's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. 146 00:20:23.100 --> 00:20:24.210 It's a long one. I'm sorry. 147 00:20:24.600 --> 00:20:27.000 Oh no that's that's that's the purpose. That's why we're here. 148 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:34.470 And the other thing is that she supports me in this, so did my wife, when she was alive and my wife. 149 00:20:35.520 --> 00:20:44.130 Had been married before for 22 years was unhappy. She told me all of that marriage and said three months be after she got married to realize you've made a mistake. 150 00:20:44.610 --> 00:20:59.580 She came from a Catholic Hispanic family went to her mom mom's oh no you can't divorce. It's never happened in our family went to a priest. Oh no, you can't divorce you are his subject you are to listen to your husband. 151 00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:13.620 They had three kids, so I have had three stepkids they were 16 1718 when I met my wife. Don't ever marry somebody who's got kids that age. 152 00:21:15.570 --> 00:21:25.590 We all survived it took about five years of survival tactics. By the way, to get them into enough of it adulthood, where they were better people than they were when I met them. 153 00:21:27.690 --> 00:21:38.670 Two out of three aren't bad this the middle one was drugs, alcohol by the age of 16 was already gone and stayed gone. He died three months or after his mother did 154 00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:46.350 Have a heart attack, of all things, and we were all guilty of thinking died of an overdose. So 155 00:21:47.550 --> 00:22:00.780 And I have nine grandchildren eight girls and one boy two great grandchildren one girl and one boy who are just over a year old now. Oh. 156 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:13.020 cabling distance relationship, a good relationship long distance with all of them that I we do rarely see each other. My daughter lives in Washington State, my son lives in Southern California. 157 00:22:14.910 --> 00:22:16.290 Yeah, bit of a bit of a track but 158 00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:30.840 Yeah, and what they told me was your dad was kind of a flight. He was a bad guy who just a flaky just flaky guy cut room. I don't know how I could describe this too much to describe and they they never respected him. 159 00:22:32.100 --> 00:22:37.230 And they told me, said you know we love our dad because we have to meet our dad. 160 00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:41.940 But we love you and we respect you. 161 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:45.060 Which is a very big difference to their 162 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:45.570 Different 163 00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:49.410 Things so that that and the fact that they knew their mother was happy with me. 164 00:22:50.610 --> 00:22:53.940 And so they've already offered that if something happens. 165 00:22:55.530 --> 00:23:08.100 To Chuck and she can't help me in my old age that they will let us and really want. So we're, we're at an impasse there. Oh, that's six years younger than me, my partner's 166 00:23:08.820 --> 00:23:22.950 name is Charles so so our nickname is Chuck, but she's six years younger and much better health than I am now and I unless there's an accident or something unforeseen. I'm sure I'm gonna be the first one out the door. 167 00:23:24.120 --> 00:23:25.980 So sounds like that's your plan anyway. 168 00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:34.860 Yeah, I don't wanna I'm not ready yet. I stay as long as I can. But it sounds like it was more like more likely than not. 169 00:23:35.370 --> 00:23:39.720 Now, I don't think you're done your work yet. I think there's, I think we still need more from June, so 170 00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:41.160 Well, I hope so. 171 00:23:43.050 --> 00:23:56.100 I and that part I'm enjoying to I never had that my marriage, especially that last 10 years when I had to continue to work, try to take care of my wife at home and then her mother moved in on us. My stepmother. I had 172 00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:06.060 A barn full animals and chickens and ducks and turkeys and all that and to work, continue to work full time. I don't know how I did it. 173 00:24:07.020 --> 00:24:15.450 But that also kept me from doing many of the things that I'm doing now that I wanted to do, then, or for most of my life. It was always having to work full time. 174 00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:33.000 And my partner and I are these people who are driven about taking care of ourselves and other people and so both of us put ourselves through college. Nobody helped us both of us believe it or not, I work five part time jobs to go through college. 175 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:45.240 And she did, too. We didn't know each other. Then, but she was doing the same thing in her life as a younger person because there was no help available because we were so driven to get to get something done. 176 00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:58.950 And and so there was a while during my marriage. I was only able to go to conferences, maybe two or three times a year, my wife would go with me. She was very supportive of what I did. 177 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:19.980 And very out of that. But, and she and all that and her brothers knew her parents never knew about me at all, most of her cousins and the extended family did not know about my past, but we weren't being we're simply not asked if anyone had asked us would be very open about right. 178 00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:26.790 And they just never get my only question I got from her Mexican family was 179 00:25:28.050 --> 00:25:32.250 uncle who said, Hey Jude. How do you like being around all those green goes 180 00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:36.210 I love it so so 181 00:25:37.770 --> 00:25:48.030 You know that that's another it's almost like another life when I look back when people talk living you know into your 80s or 90s, or so even late 70s. 182 00:25:48.810 --> 00:26:02.760 You have it seems like there's, there can be almost definitive periods. So I had a period from maybe my birth to 16 or so and other period from 16 to 30 other period from 30 to 183 00:26:07.020 --> 00:26:07.590 You know, 184 00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:26.640 Seven, eight, and then now and each one is almost like a marker or a benchmark of what was happening at the time, and how my life might have dramatically changed because of certain events. And then there's the continuity of always having the gender issues. 185 00:26:27.810 --> 00:26:28.530 And I will say, 186 00:26:29.550 --> 00:26:30.090 Go ahead. 187 00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:33.000 When you were when you were born. You were assigned female at birth. 188 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:34.680 Is that correct, yes. Yes. 189 00:26:35.340 --> 00:26:39.330 And then what have been the gender identities that you have inhabited and 190 00:26:39.570 --> 00:26:40.350 Up till now. 191 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.630 Well, gender identities always been the same male that has never changed. 192 00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:46.200 Okay. 193 00:26:46.380 --> 00:27:00.840 It will even as a small child I can recognize, you know, the psychologists do this test about draw a person. And so most males will draw a male most females withdraw female and so on. And I was always my characters. When I do 194 00:27:01.860 --> 00:27:18.330 Were male characters. I always thought of myself as male i didn't know i mean i had long hair until I was 10 I looked like a feminine little girl. Very, very thin. My mom was a girly and but I dress and boys clothes. 195 00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:30.030 Except at school and church where I was forced to wear girls clothes, but I never knew. I looked like I did in beside my head, my image of myself was as a boy. 196 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:37.860 Right, well, and actually not even as a boy, but as a young man. It was almost as if I had another lifetime before or something. 197 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:49.770 I never thought of myself as a child, and I don't know where that comes from. I'm not going to go to blue stuff, but I didn't ever think of myself as a child. Then, from the time I was eight years old. 198 00:27:50.610 --> 00:27:58.110 People adults would come to me to ask my opinion about things and even my advice, sometimes and I and so 199 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:05.700 My early dreams. My I never thought of. I want to be a veterinarian. I never thought I'd be doing what I'm doing now. 200 00:28:06.570 --> 00:28:12.540 But it was always about rescue and keeping people and animals for from harm. 201 00:28:13.050 --> 00:28:22.560 I would dream about it at night in my dreams I would daydream about it during the day and I would act on it when I was called to do so, or even if I wasn't called to do so. 202 00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:32.910 And and most of those early years, of course it was around rescuing wild animals or having a puppy or kitten and carrying around for hours at a time. 203 00:28:34.620 --> 00:28:35.040 And 204 00:28:37.830 --> 00:28:56.160 I will say one thing about that years later at a conference, I met a two spirit person who was people. The subject was about people feeling lost it while they were in their middle aged like they had no direction now. And the person said, go back to when you were a child. 205 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:01.230 You knew who you were then because you were closer to the spirit. 206 00:29:02.340 --> 00:29:07.950 And so I then began to interpret my childhood feelings which continue to today. 207 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:09.660 As 208 00:29:12.090 --> 00:29:23.880 Perhaps a little insight and some source of sword, and I do believe, at least I hope that I like this. I come closer to believe in reincarnation than I do any other aspect. 209 00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:40.320 About heaven or hell or any other thing after this life. I'm not saying I believe anything fully I will leave my options open. I come closer to that because it sounds and can also explain a little bit of what I think maybe a former life was about and I have been to 210 00:29:44.310 --> 00:29:55.950 With guidance counselor is guiding for past life regression kinds of experiences to delve into possible for more lines. And so I don't know. 211 00:29:57.060 --> 00:29:57.630 And how was 212 00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:03.360 How was that sexuality as a general identity. How is that played into the evolutions. 213 00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:12.090 Well, I always all yeah I was always attracted to women and so early on my sexual orientation. And that's not ever changed, and I'm not an 214 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:21.810 I'm trained as a sex therapist and sex educator. So, believe me. I'm I've been exposed to a lot of ideas that my clients and other people have 215 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:32.880 But I've never wavered and I, and if I don't, and I'm not even can put that curious about what would it be like to buy 216 00:30:33.450 --> 00:30:44.880 Good care for both sexes are the options open for me and it's just the matrix for me is female. I love women. I love being around women. I love their bodies. 217 00:30:45.330 --> 00:30:57.840 I didn't want you know but I love their bodies that has not changed. I know many, many of my clients have and and i'm i can say, truthfully I had never had even a romantic or 218 00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:10.410 Relationship with a male, let alone the sexual relationship with a male I had Roddick feelings about a meal. I have had good close male friends, many of whom are gay men. 219 00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:22.200 And again, it's the feminine it, the ones who expressed more feminine entity that I was friendly with than the ones who are, you know, tried to appear more masculine being 220 00:31:23.550 --> 00:31:36.810 The, the realization of what the orientation, was it was just always there, but I never acted on it. I knew for sure, but the time I was I was 14 before I had any 221 00:31:38.370 --> 00:31:47.070 And then it was a dream that I had a relationship with one of my schoolmates. And this wasn't even somebody that was interested in was just a dream, but it almost confirmed 222 00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:58.350 That yeah I do like girls. And then I had 16 I had my first real love sexual relationship with a girl my age who attended a different high school 223 00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:05.730 That lasted about a year I was heartbroken is the time in those years 56 224 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:18.600 You couldn't go with your partner and hold their hand or hug them in public or gaze into their eyes do all these loving things you couldn't brag about having a girl. I couldn't brag about having a girlfriend. 225 00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:28.290 Or a love interest. It's all hidden and, well, you know, all those things that we take for granted that we are able to do with someone we care about. 226 00:32:28.950 --> 00:32:47.370 And that continued through the time until I transitioned in 1970 I was always a he. You know, I go out in public by 14 I had my hair literally in a crew cut about a short I had all my hair than that it was shorter as it is now, didn't have a beer. And of course, 227 00:32:48.750 --> 00:32:59.400 Voice is high, so I if I didn't know if my mouth. People would. Is that a boy or girl or isn't it if I open my mouth. My voice will give me away. 228 00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:10.680 Right. And it still is, it, it, or he, she, and the name calling. And all of the things you can possibly think of about someone assuming that I was lesbian and I assume that to 229 00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:24.300 There was no label. Then I knew I was 12 when Christine Jorgensen story hit the headlines. I read it, I remember reading it in a in a Sunday paper or something. 230 00:33:24.840 --> 00:33:33.390 And my only wonder, was G. There are people who feel that way we'll need their the opposite. I wonder if they do these kind of surgeries for people like me. 231 00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:45.450 Right. But then I thought, oh, I'd have to go to Denmark. And I thought, oh, it must cost at least $200,000 it didn't then but any amount would have been too much for a 12 year old child. 232 00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:55.230 Home, the good thing and this is something about it. People don't have the good thing is, my mom and dad, my mom mother and dad, by the way, adopted me 233 00:33:56.130 --> 00:34:03.480 And I have one brother born about 15 months after me to them is their natural job. 234 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:17.820 They treat. They never let me know that I was adopted, they treated us both as kindly is they could, you know, we're trying to keep this equal balance of who got, what are the effects that they were very affectionate again. 235 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:28.170 With kiss. Our both our parents goodbye before bedtime until the time we were in their late teens was that kind of an affectionate family and 236 00:34:29.100 --> 00:34:35.970 And no matter what I did or how I looked, and when the words came to them and the tots, and the 237 00:34:36.630 --> 00:34:47.940 Their own friends that they've had for a lifetime started calling started blaming them for, you know, why don't you make her, let her hair girl. Why don't you make her wear dresses. Why don't you make 238 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:53.730 And their response was, she's our daughter. We love her. And if this makes her happy. That's all we want 239 00:34:54.180 --> 00:35:09.360 Why they didn't. They're not. Neither of them finish high school leave ever had an education that would have. I didn't have the education report to and they wouldn't have. They didn't read books they my dad. Read the sports page. And if he called it the funny papers, the cartoons in the 240 00:35:10.560 --> 00:35:13.200 I never saw my mom read a book till I was 25 241 00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:24.960 So their intellectual understanding of it. It was purely from the heart of right that my kids a good kid. And I love this kid, no matter what they are. 242 00:35:26.040 --> 00:35:37.620 So I had that when others didn't. What I didn't have. By the time I got into high school. It was, I had the vengeance, or the, I don't want to say vengeance couldn't pin that because intuitively, the 243 00:35:41.910 --> 00:35:47.340 I had to work two years in a row, I had two different PE teachers. 244 00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:48.960 Who 245 00:35:50.250 --> 00:36:02.910 Were trying to force me to take a shower and a public, you know, shared shower huge power that they have the gyms. Yeah. And I used to do it. And they were going to give me x. And I was a high honor roll student with straight A's. 246 00:36:04.140 --> 00:36:07.020 So I wrote to the state city schools. 247 00:36:08.490 --> 00:36:11.550 I couldn't tell them about myself of what the real reason was 248 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:24.120 But I did they aren't enough about my academic stuff and I was getting A's and the health classes that were attached to that and everything else. And that was good in sports, they actually came in investigating the school and and 249 00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:32.280 Made them stop doing what they were doing. I also had a school counselor who called me in the same kind of questions. Why do you dress the way you do. 250 00:36:32.730 --> 00:36:42.480 Of course I was still in women, girls, clothes, but they were rather like a jacket and actually boys jacket were what were called fruit boots at the time, those little 251 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:54.780 Ankle high boots that were boys would wear skirts at the if you put it seemed like the middle would look like pants. Instead of, you know, and on and on and on and 252 00:36:55.530 --> 00:37:07.380 And so they would just constantly needle me or call me in or trying to find something that they could do shamed me with I guess they would never come out with a word precious word 253 00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:22.380 So I couldn't wait to get out of high school, I got a scholarship to go to college. It's the first year that Illinois gave scholarships, I would have had four years of school for free tuition. 254 00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:31.320 And I didn't go because I would have had to wear a skirt or a dress to college, they still had dress codes there. 255 00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:41.430 And and then so what you ask yourself, you can think about a dyke. The boy he died a bushy woman managed looking woman, but kind of jobs that they get 256 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:52.440 Back to work driving a delivery truck whatever something, you know, something that allows in the dress the way they want and still get by. That's what I did. 257 00:37:53.070 --> 00:38:03.720 Funny thing was, for me, was I was so well liked my neighbors and friends as a human being. Nobody was upset that everybody wanted me to babysit for their kids. 258 00:38:05.220 --> 00:38:19.230 Like if I was such a terrible person, you wouldn't want me around their children. So I did a lot of things that were almost no pay whatsoever, or very low paid very menial jobs and still didn't go to school, I 259 00:38:21.600 --> 00:38:32.160 But I read it, I, I read at that time, even while I was still in junior high, I was reading four books a day without fail sometimes more than a fast reader. I have good recall 260 00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:33.720 In 261 00:38:34.950 --> 00:38:48.900 And so I so I instead of reading books for fun. I read all nonfiction and most of it was in the sciences or history or something that the geography and on and on a wide range with interest. And so 262 00:38:50.040 --> 00:39:09.330 When I wasn't working. I was reading books. I also at age 21 when it was now legal to go into the bars. I was living i by the way I grew up in St. Louis. I grew up in a little town across the river Mississippi River called Alton, Illinois, a town of about 40,000 people then 263 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:25.950 St. Louis was 22 miles across the river in Missouri, and that's where the, where I've had gay bars to go to. And now, now that routine shifted still working every day. 264 00:39:29.610 --> 00:39:30.060 And 265 00:39:32.370 --> 00:39:43.020 When the whistle bloodwork have run home to teach us at Dr. The St. Louis, and I would say most all till the bars closed at one o'clock in the morning and then the routines. 266 00:39:43.350 --> 00:39:56.910 Same thing. Like I would croak. If I couldn't get to the bars. Those were my people, those three people identified with and we all thought that I was just too much died. I say, just not there is no such thing as just 267 00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:08.220 But the trans thing was not known by either one of us. I did learn, though, when I talked to other very much with people, much more books than I could hope to be in appearance. 268 00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:10.500 Or physical appearance. 269 00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:24.030 At they didn't not want to be women. They just, they just didn't like men and they often didn't like being around in it. All right. Um, and my again my 270 00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:35.490 I spend about as much time with with a feminine game in his friends as I did with that. The other women who might be looking for a butch as being as a partner. 271 00:40:38.130 --> 00:40:39.750 That was a time when 272 00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:49.440 It's the time early 60s, the bar would go to what's called Shelley's circus bar, is it a bad areas, St. Louis. 273 00:40:50.070 --> 00:41:00.510 There's a walk in the barn and down at the other end, there's a short bar, you know, and so we could face the door. I see who's coming in every evening, right, check them out before they get it. 274 00:41:01.770 --> 00:41:17.250 And when I can remember saying to a friend of mine when they were too feminine looking women coming in together as partners and obviously partners, the way they were behaving, we would say, well, who's the butchered, who's the film, what's going on here. 275 00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:19.170 It was that 276 00:41:20.190 --> 00:41:23.160 That timing right and 277 00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:33.060 Just and I met someone I dated. I didn't date at first because of very shocking didn't know how to go up and approach. Anybody didn't. And finally, 278 00:41:33.630 --> 00:41:53.310 Got desperate enough that I did. Thank goodness. It was a successful approach and I ended up with that person for about a year, but she was much younger. She was actually he lied to me about her age, when we met. She was only 17 I was 21 and but we were friends and lovers and 279 00:41:54.390 --> 00:42:00.870 Never live together and then there was a series of dating this net and other and series before and after that person. 280 00:42:02.310 --> 00:42:14.580 none of whom I was serious about, but they, it was an interesting thing. It was usually a friendship or quasi friendship that got sexualized and romanticize 281 00:42:15.180 --> 00:42:31.950 So when the sexual part of the relationship might end or never happened at all the friendship was still there and I I've still got friends from that period of my life who are lifelong friends who are ex girlfriend, if you will. 282 00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:40.440 When I was 22 I met someone who has 20 name is Jean Klein, she's passed away about four years ago. 283 00:42:41.850 --> 00:42:44.130 I gene is to me. 284 00:42:45.180 --> 00:42:51.810 ranks as probably the love of my life and my partner knows that, too. I can't even my wife. 285 00:42:53.640 --> 00:43:03.630 She's someone I really, really, really, really cared for and we never lived together in St. Louis. I moved to Southern California in 1965 to get away from 286 00:43:04.830 --> 00:43:08.070 The middle Western 287 00:43:12.120 --> 00:43:21.390 Oppressive great environment to go to California. I used to joke I say Solana fruits and nuts and flakes. And that's where I want to be and 288 00:43:22.050 --> 00:43:36.420 And I, I came out and gene stayed there and St. Louis for about a year before she joined me and then we live together for about five years. And right about that time, but not the reason she left 289 00:43:38.100 --> 00:43:42.270 I became aware that I could start home you know about trans people. 290 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:52.440 And in fact, she left before I started my transition that she left by the way, because she had become addicted to methamphetamines 291 00:43:53.100 --> 00:44:08.490 And she had a sister living in Nigeria on a rubber plantation. And she thought that she went there for six months she could get off. Get away from her addiction and she did succeed, but we never got back together and we did stay friends for until she passed. 292 00:44:10.080 --> 00:44:16.500 But my emotions were so caught up in that relationship that for about 13 years I didn't 293 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:25.530 Although I dated. I never could let my heart go to anybody else. It just didn't happen. I was so 294 00:44:27.870 --> 00:44:43.530 There was always this thing. And the last thing she had said to me is, maybe if we don't end up with anybody else we'll get back together some time and it was as if that look, I always wanted that to happen and and never been 295 00:44:45.120 --> 00:44:45.840 So, 296 00:44:47.850 --> 00:44:48.090 What 297 00:44:48.180 --> 00:44:50.520 We learned about the concept of trends. 298 00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:55.860 Is actually let me there's yeah there's a 299 00:44:57.420 --> 00:45:07.290 It happen all at once. By the way, I had begun to meet a few male to female trans people that I never had an opportunity to talk to that knew about 300 00:45:09.330 --> 00:45:15.390 Saw them, some of them were female so called Female. Female impersonators really because they got themselves as female 301 00:45:15.720 --> 00:45:29.010 But that's how they made their living as a female impersonator. Some of them were taking hormones and only a very few had surgery. This was in the late very late seven. I'm sorry, very late 60s. Okay, and 302 00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:31.050 The hand. 303 00:45:32.190 --> 00:45:51.420 I when I before I went to California, while I was still in Illinois, and then after I went to California. I worked as a dog groomer and veterinary assistant. I was certified as that assistant and as it doing anything around Animal Care Pet Shop manager, you name it. 304 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:59.220 And I was watching this grooming shop in a little place in Culver City, Illinois, California Mar Vista. 305 00:46:00.690 --> 00:46:06.840 Near MGM Studios and that Christmas, Christmas 1970 month 306 00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:10.080 We're let that go to ring again. 307 00:46:10.350 --> 00:46:11.490 Okay, they 308 00:46:13.650 --> 00:46:14.100 They 309 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:18.330 Had been on this inaugural bus, they say. 310 00:46:20.490 --> 00:46:31.470 So that winter just before Christmas, when it gets really busy all the people with their little poodle the pool. Today's everybody had booze when they were little dogs to look nice. 311 00:46:33.810 --> 00:46:40.740 Christmas is like triples the number of people coming in to get their dogs group. And so my employer where I've been about five, five years. 312 00:46:42.210 --> 00:46:46.530 Said hired another rumor and he came in that day and 313 00:46:47.730 --> 00:46:58.320 CB a really nice guy. And we started talking and he is asking me a little bit about myself and he was telling me about some of his life, but nothing specific was said about anything. 314 00:47:00.060 --> 00:47:06.660 Until that evening before we left from work. He said, You know, I've got a book that I think you might like to see 315 00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:11.370 Why don't you come by my apartment tonight and I'll show you the book. 316 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:14.460 That 317 00:47:15.660 --> 00:47:21.120 Was my introduction. I went to his apartment and it was Harry Benjamin's the transsexual phenomenon. 318 00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:30.210 Which you didn't read a couple years earlier know about and he himself was a trans guy. 319 00:47:31.020 --> 00:47:38.400 And he was people think that the first people in the United States that hadn't done at Johns Hopkins were male to female. That's not true. 320 00:47:39.240 --> 00:47:58.170 There was a cohort of six female to mail trans people who were the first. He was one of the first in 1966 he had had his top done in Van Horn hormones for about four years. By the time I met him, and he had come, specifically to California to get the bottom surgery done at Stanford. 321 00:47:59.220 --> 00:48:00.240 I knew nothing about 322 00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:09.120 Me, was he a public figure is he, he's he's not ever been in public. His name is David field. I'm not sure that he's still alive or not. He had been 323 00:48:11.220 --> 00:48:22.350 How he found all this, I have no clue. He didn't ever tell me, but he had been an heir to a 40,000 acres of desert land in New Mexico. 324 00:48:23.430 --> 00:48:30.750 Along with his sister, and the two of them leased land for people to run catalog. So he had the money to do what he wanted to do. 325 00:48:31.950 --> 00:48:32.490 And 326 00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:46.050 So any rate he applied to Stanford I applied. It's almost as he gave me by the way that that very evening the name of the endocrinologist, he was seeing in Beverly Hills was Gerald, though. 327 00:48:47.070 --> 00:48:47.610 He 328 00:48:49.650 --> 00:48:51.600 A call Dr. Love the next day. 329 00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:03.810 He made an appointment saw me within a week he says to me, You know, I think you're a classic case, whatever they thought those days that the classic transsexual history. 330 00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:16.560 He says, I have no problems with the starting on hormones, but I need to have a psychiatric evaluation. So he gives me the name of this he picks up the phone calls actresses. No person sitting in my office that I'd like you to see it. So, Lucy K 331 00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:30.810 And so I saw him within two or three days, and he picks up the phone about 45 minutes later he picks up the phone, new Docker loads and you're right. I agree with you, no reason not to start on hormones and that was my introduction 332 00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:42.870 Then within about with it. I was lucky I you know at the time. My hair is not white are missing. It was all dark, dark ram eyes are dark beers didn't have a beard yet. 333 00:49:43.830 --> 00:49:51.690 But my beers started coming in within about six weeks, little hairs sprouting out here and there, moved from here up instead of from here down 334 00:49:52.620 --> 00:49:53.160 And 335 00:49:55.170 --> 00:49:57.150 Within six months, I had a full beard. 336 00:49:58.170 --> 00:49:58.740 I always 337 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:05.340 usually wear it shorter than what it is now just pretty short. And I had 338 00:50:07.770 --> 00:50:22.620 My voice, it started to drop to about the same time so literally within a period of two months. It went from that book from that. What is it, is it a he, she or get to definitely heat in other people's minds. The other thing that happened. 339 00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.180 As part of that. Yeah. And the other part is 340 00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:34.650 It was funny, but it wasn't funny. So now I went to the same bars. I had been to as a butch 341 00:50:36.150 --> 00:50:41.130 Lesbian and was rejected because I wasn't a female 342 00:50:42.180 --> 00:50:44.790 Because I was a dirty old man walking into a lesbian bar. 343 00:50:45.330 --> 00:50:58.050 Right. Same people I played softball. I guess the year before wouldn't serve me didn't recognize me and wouldn't serve me. So what happened then, which is sometimes still happens today. 344 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:21.450 Is that my own that community that I embraced that embraced me that had become my family, no longer embrace me. I lost my family. So I learned how to live as you know there's a science fiction novel or a an anthology that was Robert Heinlein wrote a chapter in there called heroes are 345 00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:25.110 Called a stranger in a strange land. 346 00:51:26.520 --> 00:51:28.770 And so that's been my personal 347 00:51:30.060 --> 00:51:44.790 THEME SONG. So first I go in a straight world were born, where I'm not. I'm a stranger. I go, then into the gay world where I'm no longer a stranger. I'm familiar I both had become a guy, and now I'm no longer 348 00:51:46.410 --> 00:51:48.720 And I'm a stranger in both lands in some way. 349 00:51:49.740 --> 00:51:54.390 And now I have lived a vast almost 50 years of my life. 350 00:51:55.500 --> 00:52:01.020 And I'm not saying this in a pejorative way or any way at all, except it's exciting. 351 00:52:02.340 --> 00:52:09.360 I remain a stranger in a strange land in my own mind. I am and other 352 00:52:10.470 --> 00:52:23.670 I will always be an other for some reason. And that's not a negative feeling on my part. It's actually a very positive feeling and boys. It gives me strength. 353 00:52:24.510 --> 00:52:41.850 And it's as if I can move between these worlds and I've heard some of my two spirit friends talk about what to spirit people do within their communities, which you have this capacity to move between the masculine, feminine. The two spirits. The men's camp and the women's camp. 354 00:52:42.390 --> 00:52:49.200 Right and and whether you find acceptance or not. And some of them are all of them, you still have that capacity. 355 00:52:50.820 --> 00:53:01.620 To do that, because while you're while I'm saying it's an other it all becomes familiar. Why, why, when I was licensed as a counselor. 356 00:53:02.670 --> 00:53:16.050 marriage and family therapist. I remember way back when somebody say well what could be better than having a trans person you know all about women and all about men, you can do both sides, or you can see both sides of what's going on and heterosexual relationship. 357 00:53:17.190 --> 00:53:20.280 Yeah. And of course, that's not true either. But 358 00:53:21.810 --> 00:53:34.860 We, you know, I don't know what you're getting from other people but and I will say this openly and this is something to me that other people see as being. And the other is, and I'll say this openly to 359 00:53:36.090 --> 00:53:42.150 In my personal opinion, this is my personal opinion and it only applies to what I've done myself. 360 00:53:43.230 --> 00:53:52.290 I can think of nothing better than shouting to the world about who I am out open and proud as who I am. 361 00:53:54.330 --> 00:54:03.540 I think that people who choose a non anonymity out of fear. They have a good reason to fear, but I think they're giving away their so 362 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:11.700 They're giving away, who they are. And I'm not to please other people that way. 363 00:54:13.170 --> 00:54:13.950 That's not me. 364 00:54:14.610 --> 00:54:17.640 And would you say that is at the core of your, your activism as well. 365 00:54:17.670 --> 00:54:25.950 Is that, yes, it is. It's very much so. Now, I also understand because I've had as many people are more people who prefer to be 366 00:54:27.690 --> 00:54:33.990 Nobody wants to use the word stealth anymore, but in effect that's what they're doing is hiding a coping dead. 367 00:54:34.710 --> 00:54:42.240 Or preferring to live out their life as a male. They go always thought they were the female. The egos and that anything else is not 368 00:54:43.050 --> 00:55:01.560 Necessarily not okay. But it's not them. It's not that how they want to identify and I understand from working with kids and teens are a lot more of them are in that face. Now then, then even when I was younger, that I i'm I'm, I'm not a trans. Boy, I'm a boy. 369 00:55:02.910 --> 00:55:03.240 Right. 370 00:55:03.750 --> 00:55:04.200 You know, 371 00:55:05.220 --> 00:55:15.930 I proudly wear the label trans man because to me it says how I got here to where I am now and and and anyone who has any knowledge about 372 00:55:17.310 --> 00:55:33.390 All that goes into that would at least understand in there. There are few more people who are not trained at any means not even consider themselves allies that are educated enough about it that they do understand that it's the different place. 373 00:55:34.470 --> 00:55:39.240 Even with the therapy that counseling of couples that I done 374 00:55:40.710 --> 00:55:44.790 I might mention here. You remember Mario Martino that name. 375 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.070 I do know that name now. 376 00:55:47.100 --> 00:55:47.850 Look at 377 00:55:48.600 --> 00:55:59.100 The book called emergence. He was a nun, who became a was a woman who became a man wrote a book and I think it was 1977 or 1979 378 00:55:59.520 --> 00:56:01.680 Okay, that he 379 00:56:04.110 --> 00:56:14.610 He he he he left he left the Catholic nun and eventually became an episcopal priest by but, by the way, in at much after the time that book was written. 380 00:56:15.660 --> 00:56:17.160 I met Mario 381 00:56:18.180 --> 00:56:27.660 I was already out and open and I don't know if you want to get into that yet but me as well. So activism. So I met David, I got my information. 382 00:56:28.290 --> 00:56:39.180 Soon after, and I'm doing my own thing, trying to get to where I need to be surgically and hormonally and I'm just doing it live my life, blah, blah, blah, blah, still coming with it and 383 00:56:41.250 --> 00:56:47.280 And I began to Matt meet other people I met another deaf TM guy within a year. 384 00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:57.750 Who was who lived in Oakland with his mom and so that David and and 385 00:56:59.250 --> 00:57:01.650 The other guy won't mention his name for a certain reason 386 00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:06.990 The three of us applied to Stanford. It's almost the same time. 387 00:57:08.070 --> 00:57:18.600 I had not had any surgery, nor had the other guy, but David had had the top surgery turned out I was the first one, getting in the door for much the same reason that 388 00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:27.480 My endocrinologist and the psychiatry is to evaluate. I went up to Stanford and they their psychiatry is fake Fisk Noren Fisk 389 00:57:27.990 --> 00:57:36.750 And Dr. lab was there and they both interviewed me just briefly as part of their protocol and they said, Well, as far as we're concerned, there's no reason for you to wait two years. 390 00:57:38.580 --> 00:57:45.090 We require. How about September as your first surgery coach eight that was September 1972 391 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:47.280 Wow, and 392 00:57:50.280 --> 00:58:05.550 And I begin course. No, no internet no computers, no cell phones, no nothing, no air, but because I read a lot. I should have thought about this much earlier. But I started having a direction to search 393 00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:17.940 And so I would go to UCLA and USC libraries and other medical libraries and go in the stacks and find books side they're mostly 394 00:58:19.830 --> 00:58:31.050 medic medical stock and some psychiatric stuff about it. And unfortunately, a lot of the pages have been the razor blade away and they were no longer in the book, but I started copying things that were there. 395 00:58:32.220 --> 00:58:46.290 The other thing is, is I was already interested in. And frankly, I must give Dr. Loud my surgeon part of a good deal of credit for for my budding 396 00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:59.670 Wish to become involved in all this. He they were they were. This is 1973 even before I finished my last surgery. And I said to him, 397 00:59:00.150 --> 00:59:12.150 I said he had a brochure or something in his office about a big gender conference. This was before he big was so it was a precursor to the Harry Benjamin 398 00:59:12.930 --> 00:59:21.690 And that they were going to have it there at Stanford. And I said, well, I'd really like to go to that you think there's any way I could. He says, If you come as my guest. 399 00:59:24.210 --> 00:59:28.320 Who do I sit next to the audience but john money. I swear to God. 400 00:59:29.430 --> 00:59:32.700 That at that time john money was still ok ok at that 401 00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:50.340 And I was so impressed my own doctor me this little nothing. Nobody in my own doctor. Let me come to this for free. And who am I sitting next to, but the john money and who denied names from these other people on these papers they written 402 00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:52.020 Wow. 403 00:59:52.110 --> 00:59:53.010 And so 404 00:59:54.570 --> 01:00:02.670 I also was asked, early on to by a colleague by a friend of mine. One of the other guy that was that I didn't mention his name. 405 01:00:05.490 --> 01:00:10.380 To take his place, apparently a college professor contacted him. 406 01:00:11.520 --> 01:00:20.910 Again, this is 19 right after my during time was going through a surgeon and asked him to come to his class to, you know, give a little talk about trans stuff. 407 01:00:21.630 --> 01:00:30.630 Whereas humans. What's while any class and he wanted to teach me. And I said, Well, I'm pretty shy and I don't know if I could pick I do this or not but 408 01:00:31.470 --> 01:00:39.600 So I got the guys number call them up and he reassured me that he would introduce me and he'd be there and he had asked data ask appropriate questions he would interview. 409 01:00:40.350 --> 01:00:52.710 That was the beginning within the next two or three years I was doing 200 classes or more every year in Southern California. The reason for that. Remember women's lib. 410 01:00:54.300 --> 01:01:10.290 Birth control coincided with women's live with the sexual revolution in the early 70s and the college's the one college I went to had 22 classes every semester in human sexuality. 411 01:01:10.590 --> 01:01:12.630 1010 my 412 01:01:12.720 --> 01:01:20.970 Goodness orange coast college Nathan. I was in Southern California. And so I talked for every single one of the instructors and 413 01:01:21.630 --> 01:01:31.860 And everything from San Diego from the Mexican border UP TO TO THE NORTHERN CALIFORNIA running around the classes to speak, nobody else was doing it in 414 01:01:32.310 --> 01:01:44.070 And certainly no fit in, people were doing and you have to look at this this early 70s 7372 73 Jane's green did not get started. Until 1988 415 01:01:45.180 --> 01:01:57.120 So now you've got 15 years ahead of anything he did at all. But when it started doing and he came on strong and he's done. You know, you know, he's done very good work. Excellent work all the way along. 416 01:01:58.590 --> 01:02:09.870 And so I began writing to Mario Martino who was the was the author of that book emergence in 1977 417 01:02:10.740 --> 01:02:31.920 I also got in contact with Rupert Raj, you probably know him from Canada. He was 19 when he started, whereas I was 30 so he's 11 years general the line, but I got in touch with him, so I in the interim I Rupert I correspond, and so on. And I've gotten to meet and only a few times at conferences. 418 01:02:33.030 --> 01:02:36.930 Mario Martino whose real name was Tony Tony beanie. 419 01:02:38.100 --> 01:02:59.970 Was a friend of Harry Benjamin in New York City, and he's since passed away a few years. Well, so just the three of. That's it, just the three of us in those years were the only people who were out in the open and really in the F TN community known enough for other people to contact now. 420 01:03:01.470 --> 01:03:10.320 Then in the late 70s. I started well from the very beginning. I started helping people. I didn't have a professional license. 421 01:03:10.890 --> 01:03:21.270 I wasn't accounts or I wasn't a PA, I was still dogs, but I would meet other people they get my name, or I'd be a classes and somebody's listening and contact me later. 422 01:03:21.870 --> 01:03:32.760 And I began gathering information myself, but I used to subscribe to the Erickson newsletter Erickson Erickson foundations delegates of he was writing 423 01:03:33.810 --> 01:03:34.140 Okay. 424 01:03:35.730 --> 01:03:47.370 I don't know how to tie all this together. But anyway, so I was terribly. This wasn't enough for me. My God, they only had a little four page newsletter and an order came out every six months, and it was very, very 425 01:03:48.570 --> 01:03:55.740 tight lipped and it really didn't say anything. And I didn't think I can do better than that. I thought I'm going to do something myself. 426 01:03:56.700 --> 01:04:06.990 In the meantime, with all those invitations and the classes that I was going to. You may not recognize these names because many of her already gone then you didn't live in Southern California. 427 01:04:07.830 --> 01:04:13.920 But Vernon Bonnie bolo who had a lot of books on sexuality and the history of sexuality or in LA at the time. 428 01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:27.360 And I was speaking to their classes and they took a liking to me. So they were in to groom me to be an academic working in the fields of sexuality. Alright, so I wrote a couple of chapters and couple of books, they did. 429 01:04:27.930 --> 01:04:42.870 The other two who really were kind to me and mentors were bill William Hartmann and Maryland fithian who at the time were called the West Coast masters and John's sex therapist, they had a 430 01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:51.300 Center for sex research in Long Beach, California. So all this ship was going on that field of sexuality. 431 01:04:51.720 --> 01:05:11.010 There were all kinds of newsletters and new in and even a few magazines like sexual psychology and stuff. So I became interested when a sector, the American Association is sex educators counselors and therapists, I joined them as a member, even before the degrees. I was, I met 432 01:05:13.620 --> 01:05:28.860 Mickey diamond enjoying the Society for the scientific study of sexuality somewhere in all this, this, I'm the things the personal things that have held me back probably the most in accomplishing what I really wouldn't do even now. 433 01:05:30.570 --> 01:05:36.840 Is a I'm basically shy, you wouldn't know that I am. It's just a chore for me to initiate anything 434 01:05:38.340 --> 01:05:48.960 The I don't have the typing skills that whole two fingers. See when computers came along, i don't i can i can get into them and I can research, but I know nothing about the mechanics. 435 01:05:49.710 --> 01:06:02.610 I don't know how to set up a website. I've never had enough money to pay somebody set up a website and and the last but certainly not least is while it may not sound like a high enough failure at promoting myself. 436 01:06:04.350 --> 01:06:11.790 So the people that you get in my estimation, the people that are very good at promoting themselves are the names you here today. 437 01:06:12.330 --> 01:06:12.780 Right. 438 01:06:13.620 --> 01:06:28.200 You know, and one is James green and what is there are several but they're very good at self promotion, they're very good at what they do, but they have that as an asset as well. So they'll make it, you don't. You've never heard them, they'll make sure you know who they are. 439 01:06:29.310 --> 01:06:38.610 And that and that sort of thing, they're named which handle also either can afford to have a website or or or or or know how to know how to advertise 440 01:06:39.270 --> 01:06:49.470 I've never known how to do that. So I sit here in my little house enjoy my little house, my little dog and my very great partner and I do my duty every week and go to work. 441 01:06:52.140 --> 01:07:03.630 And I at the end between I'm researching good right he did and and I'm the only one that my partner sees me doing this stuff, but I really the only one that knows that most of the time, so 442 01:07:04.410 --> 01:07:14.760 Early days again. Good, the newsletter was doing it for two or three years in the interim, I had met Joanna Clark right you have made seek Me seen are 443 01:07:15.420 --> 01:07:28.530 You I interviewed her. By the way, who who live locally and we met at a trans a group support group for street queens in Hollywood. Okay. 444 01:07:29.040 --> 01:07:49.680 And and most of them were prostitutes and so on and so forth. The street girls and we met there and and both of this is driven from Orange County. Do you get there and join as a very politically minded. She's very into politics and very into that sort of thing at law. 445 01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:52.290 Even though she's not an attorney. 446 01:07:53.340 --> 01:07:55.680 She was going through a lawsuit with the 447 01:07:58.110 --> 01:08:06.000 US Army at the time I met her. She had served in the Navy as a woman for 16 years in the army is a woman for two years and then they kicked her out. 448 01:08:06.510 --> 01:08:17.310 Right, so we lived. She lives in still lives in San Juan Capistrano I lived in Santa Ana maybe 15 miles apart. So Joanna and I and a person by the name of feral cats. 449 01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:27.060 And carols now stealth so she doesn't want anybody to know about her and another person named Jerry Smith came on later. So at first it was Joanna and I, we work together. 450 01:08:27.540 --> 01:08:35.340 Joanna started doing a lot more writing while I was more involved in earlier, I wrote most of whatever was in my little newsletter called Renaissance 451 01:08:36.180 --> 01:08:48.600 And then I called my service Renaissance Gender Identity Services, and then I had a friend who actually gave me a defunct, or non operating at the moment temporarily 452 01:08:49.650 --> 01:09:01.710 Foundation called the john Augustus Foundation and its purpose was sort of broad enough to include doing thinking about trans issues so 453 01:09:02.910 --> 01:09:07.440 Variously I was known as Renaissance Renaissance Gender Identity Services. 454 01:09:08.490 --> 01:09:11.910 The john Augustus Foundation. And then when I moved to 455 01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:17.670 When I got married and 456 01:09:19.620 --> 01:09:27.060 We had to drop out a lot, lot of the things I was doing his family issues we 457 01:09:29.010 --> 01:09:47.670 Okay. So Paul Walker gave us what was left of the Eric said, educational foundation when he knew he was dying. Okay. And we Joanna made up the name Jay to CP information services that was from Joe and Joe to Jay Jay to Clark and patent CP 458 01:09:48.870 --> 01:09:57.330 And so, Joanna took over a good portion of that after my wife and I moved from Santa well El Toro Santa Ana, California to 459 01:09:59.280 --> 01:10:20.310 Oregon and into Washington state in 1993 and Joanna took over portion of that. And then later you'll find in Joanna story she gave up most of that and turned it over to Dallas Danny, the J to CP that will have been parsing what we had done, and certainly partially what he had done. 460 01:10:20.730 --> 01:10:23.970 So it came from Erickson came into Jay Jay to CP, and then 461 01:10:23.970 --> 01:10:34.890 We're them to Dallas getting yeah and her her work, of course, Dallas is still doing her work of Dallas. By the way, I absolutely love, doubtless, I think she's a most amazing person. 462 01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:43.050 So Joanna and I are still in touch Joanna's health is worse than mine. She's has an eye condition that's pretty bad. And she's 463 01:10:43.590 --> 01:11:01.680 Orthopedic stuff going on. Heart stuff and you name it, but she's still working Joanna eventually found her calling and her funding, which nobody could get those days for anything trans, she found her funding from services for HIV positive people. 464 01:11:02.100 --> 01:11:02.730 Right. 465 01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:04.950 She developed that website Aegis 466 01:11:06.240 --> 01:11:16.920 For that purpose, and then had some really good fun at not at first, but eventually got some pretty good funding had six employees alive develop that huge website. 467 01:11:17.370 --> 01:11:27.360 was focused on that. Not on trans at all. And then, more recently, after she lost her funding and then her health was starting though she's basically retired now. 468 01:11:28.080 --> 01:11:42.720 And she spent her retirement years she and I share, not the animal stuff she's never had pets environmental issues, climate change anything to do with saving the earth we both share that. So she spends her time right 469 01:11:45.930 --> 01:11:57.330 Filling the mailbox email boxes of every congressman and Senator president on up every environmental group that you could think of. And I agree with her with that, that's a big thing. We share 470 01:11:57.690 --> 01:12:09.480 So we do keep in touch and we we try to Skype when we can. When she feels well enough to do it. In the meantime, when I got married, as I said, that was 1988 November 12 1988 471 01:12:10.590 --> 01:12:14.610 I had an instant family when we married and I just got 472 01:12:16.590 --> 01:12:18.720 If you I've married into a 473 01:12:19.830 --> 01:12:20.790 My wife was 474 01:12:22.140 --> 01:12:23.100 Hispanic 475 01:12:25.710 --> 01:12:37.830 Second generation parents were born in states grandparents and Mexico. And there were 350 blood relatives living within 25 miles. Oh us 476 01:12:38.310 --> 01:12:39.420 Oh my goodness. 477 01:12:39.570 --> 01:13:00.480 And it was births, deaths and funerals and parties and birthdays and anniversaries and weddings and this it was family. Family. Family. Family. There was no room for me and my friends and I will. There's no say it says eight mama happy. Ain't nobody happy so mama was happy. 478 01:13:01.500 --> 01:13:14.580 Because I tried to remake myself into a family man. I had never had this experience before I'll tell you, I don't want it. Now again I would I don't fit in really well. I was a good 479 01:13:17.550 --> 01:13:22.140 Step father that my kids tell me that all the time my grandkids adore me 480 01:13:22.980 --> 01:13:29.640 And I haven't had a chance to meet my little great grandchildren very much yet they're not old enough to express themselves in that way. 481 01:13:30.210 --> 01:13:38.610 So I fooled. Everybody, I guess I'm there, I'm not pouting I enter into the conversations. I love being around the different people like me. 482 01:13:39.120 --> 01:13:46.950 But my heart is in another place. My soul is in another place my interest is isn't in another place. I, I prefer 483 01:13:47.580 --> 01:14:06.990 The life I have now, which is my partner gives me every bit of Freedom I want we trust each other. We both require on a personal basis fidelity. We know we have that kind of trusted family we love each other very much but she's not going to keep me from going anywhere. I say about me. 484 01:14:08.070 --> 01:14:26.100 I mean, there's, there was a very different dynamic going on those 26 years I was married, and unfortunately with my wife had health problems, all the way through. So there's a reason for her fears about not having someone you know there with her a majority of the time. 485 01:14:27.120 --> 01:14:32.610 And I loved her very much. She was very, very good to me as a wife, very, very, we were 486 01:14:33.870 --> 01:14:38.220 Best friends to just like my partner now and 487 01:14:39.330 --> 01:14:46.470 And I have no regrets about the marriage. The only thing I have regrets about is not being able to 488 01:14:47.190 --> 01:14:59.700 Take you know if you make a commitment to a person and I made my commitment to be with her and I gave up everything except what I had to do, which was work and then the few places I got to go. 489 01:15:00.750 --> 01:15:17.430 She went with me to support me and the reason she would even agree to that to be away from your family because she had never been in these places before it's a chance to travel and see new places here. No. So during those years from 490 01:15:19.980 --> 01:15:45.090 19 let's say from 1961 in St. Louis to 65 there I was, as I said before, in that place where I thought it was lesbian butch lesbian doing all that the next two years from 1969 through now identified as a trans man the wording and terminology, as you know, has changed a great deal from 491 01:15:45.240 --> 01:15:45.450 What 492 01:15:47.820 --> 01:15:49.020 I'm saying, I'm sorry. 493 01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:50.520 I'm wondering just 494 01:15:50.640 --> 01:15:53.460 Some of the changes in terminology how how's it how 495 01:15:53.670 --> 01:15:55.770 Well, do not work. 496 01:15:55.830 --> 01:16:01.800 Yeah, well, it, it, okay, I'm going to add something into this but it starts out 497 01:16:02.940 --> 01:16:12.120 In the literature being spelled transsexual two S's right it transforms into transaction with one s, then it trans forms into 498 01:16:12.690 --> 01:16:18.810 And I have had, I've heard the argument about who said transgender first and everybody gives Virginia Prince credit 499 01:16:19.560 --> 01:16:27.840 And she may have, but I also did the same thing and the differentiation. For me, maybe a different reason than she had we were both doing about the same time. 500 01:16:28.170 --> 01:16:37.920 Not learning that from each other. My reason was, I was, I think, cursed to turn back to be somewhat of that that transgender was not an umbrella term. 501 01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:46.890 It was meant to differentiate somebody who was a transsexual who was getting surgery and hormones from a person who simply living in that sex full time. 502 01:16:48.510 --> 01:16:57.690 Maybe with hormones, maybe without but it was that difference, then it transformed into transgender umbrella, which is supposed to include everybody else. 503 01:16:59.160 --> 01:17:09.690 That had any any permutation about gender whatsoever at all. And now it is still keeps going in another you know in another direction. 504 01:17:12.210 --> 01:17:13.500 We 505 01:17:15.450 --> 01:17:19.050 And I met virgin. That's the other thing I mentioned willows, and 506 01:17:20.670 --> 01:17:31.020 The other pair of partner fithian that last my little heart. I got to meet door leg, who was a head of one incorporated, which was the oldest TOMO file organization. 507 01:17:32.610 --> 01:17:33.300 In LA. 508 01:17:34.950 --> 01:17:37.050 About the same time I met Virginia prints. 509 01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:57.000 And because I was training at wanted and thought I would become a sex therapist right and did get certifications as a sex therapist and sex educator. I was going to everything and anything that had anything to do with any kind of sex as an experiential thing. Now, the difference is 510 01:17:58.590 --> 01:18:07.200 Some of the places I went to were experimenting with things that I wasn't interested in, but I got a lot of invitations and so if they invited me to come 511 01:18:07.710 --> 01:18:15.930 And sit with them or give a little talk about trans issues when it got time to pairing off to go in another bedroom, I excused myself and go home. 512 01:18:17.610 --> 01:18:23.400 But it was a way of learning and many people who come at this now who are either psychologists 513 01:18:24.990 --> 01:18:28.290 Counselors doctors who are psychiatrists 514 01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:35.040 Are not sex therapist and sex therapy. People are taught to approach therapy itself. 515 01:18:35.730 --> 01:18:42.390 And their explanations of things and in more inclusive questions and people who are geared up to be a marriage and family counselor. 516 01:18:43.320 --> 01:18:50.850 Or any other kind of counseling. They just different kind of Outlook questioning it does make a difference. 517 01:18:51.450 --> 01:19:12.600 In people's life I would, if you're interested more in that I would say this is the person who's trans. She's a sister woman, her name is Patricia father FA w e r and I can get a contact if you want it. But she's a sex therapist to who sees a lot of trans people in 518 01:19:13.620 --> 01:19:22.560 That Tacoma near near Seattle, Washington. Just soft there. And I remember her bringing this up that one of her 519 01:19:23.130 --> 01:19:31.080 Talks that I went to last couple of years about her experience with that too. It's just a whole different way of approaching 520 01:19:31.830 --> 01:19:50.700 Gender and Sexuality than most people. Even the best training of those who are interested in transit us who are in another don't have that additional training. Yes. Yeah. So let me see. I'm trying to the activists, go back to about the actor was part 521 01:19:51.720 --> 01:20:04.680 So there are various assumptions. I also at some point after the fact. But before he passed away was able to meet loose over in San Francisco. Remember, he had a little parakeet at the time. 522 01:20:06.510 --> 01:20:08.580 And we talked, and he had not 523 01:20:10.080 --> 01:20:11.400 Yet written his book. 524 01:20:12.570 --> 01:20:19.980 He was helping other people, but I don't think it formed any group stuff yet the James mean took over was before that. 525 01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:21.720 It was also 526 01:20:23.250 --> 01:20:30.450 Have to tell you that my cousins fits in my president partners husband is a train was a trans man. Okay. 527 01:20:35.880 --> 01:20:37.590 So you're pressing partner now. 528 01:20:37.770 --> 01:20:38.700 And yeah. 529 01:20:39.210 --> 01:20:44.280 Was it yes my present partners previous husband was a trans man. 530 01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:56.850 Gotcha. Well, that's how we all met. I was not. I was, it was I think we met 1976 or 78 anyway. And they had 531 01:20:58.560 --> 01:21:10.950 Her Chris or ex husband had confessed to her that he thought he was a man and so she's well you need to find out what to do about it and they put on a therapist down in Southern California who 532 01:21:17.910 --> 01:21:20.010 I lost. Can you hear me. Yeah. 533 01:21:20.040 --> 01:21:20.970 I can hear you just fine. 534 01:21:21.510 --> 01:21:23.940 I somehow I lost you there. 535 01:21:25.200 --> 01:21:28.200 There you are. Okay, so 536 01:21:30.090 --> 01:21:35.940 So they were looking for someone for help and they found this therapist to talk with them, and the woman. They were the 537 01:21:37.530 --> 01:21:50.460 Ones that has been was also a therapist. He was retired. So she said she didn't know anything about. So she sent her husband off to go to the medical libraries to find something out about and then he found the seller was its name, right, and then 538 01:21:51.480 --> 01:22:05.430 They go all the way to San Francisco to meet with loose over and talk with him and then Lou said, Well, you've got one of the most knowledgeable people in the world about this in your own backyard. Here's his name, Jude patent. 539 01:22:07.770 --> 01:22:15.090 So they came back and a couple of weeks later contacted me and I know it was, it had to be before 540 01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:33.330 It was before I had a license that was 1980 when I got my license as a counselor. No. Yeah, so, um, that we met at a restaurant. I told them all. I could, at the time, and help them get that started in the meantime Joanna and I and started again. 541 01:22:34.740 --> 01:22:53.490 in an odd way. It was a group that had developed in San Juan Capistrano that was a counseling support group or trans people. One of the first call and it was William heard was the psychologists name. It's called gender dysphoria group of Orange County. 542 01:22:54.570 --> 01:22:58.470 And how I heard about it was, what am I not so 543 01:22:59.520 --> 01:23:11.640 Kind of on the same one of the street people, women had told me that you know there's this group right down by San Juan Capistrano and I heard about that doctors sending all that his clients to 544 01:23:12.210 --> 01:23:25.290 Dr. Brown, who was a well already known for being a butcher type of doctor. Okay. And so, okay, look at up to. That's quite a story, but 545 01:23:26.430 --> 01:23:39.540 Who is this guy, who is this guy, what's he doing that for I've got to go there and infiltrate the group and find out what's going on when I go to the first meeting and there's like four trans women who were all pre off. 546 01:23:41.940 --> 01:23:51.480 He had met the first one, when he was doing prison work and she was in prison and he was called the come in and counsel her. He didn't know a thing about this either to talk 547 01:23:52.050 --> 01:24:04.830 So I go down to that meeting and I stay. He asked me to stay and he actually fill me in early days of the video camera and film me because he had never met somebody like me before an F TN guy. 548 01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:17.760 And I was willing to talk to him and I found out that he wasn't referring anybody anywhere but the very woman who had been in prison was the one who was now in this group. 549 01:24:20.040 --> 01:24:27.510 OUT OF PRISON. But in this group support group. And she was referring people so she could get her own searching for free. 550 01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:38.580 And that was another that Brown had had promised these down and out gals who had nothing. I'll get to you, surgery, if you can repeat to 10 people will pay 551 01:24:39.630 --> 01:24:55.620 Okay, so I thought I in fact I before that long evening was over after they had all left that I sat and talked with him another two hours. I fell in love with it. I thought, oh, man, what a nice guy. This is he's a wonderful guy and he actually 552 01:24:56.910 --> 01:25:08.070 Allowed me and then later Joanna to become peer counselors with that group before I got my license and then after that, my license. I joined it as a licensed person. 553 01:25:09.240 --> 01:25:22.440 And so we were with that group, maybe 12 years I think oh 15 years almost all together and it was still going. And Carolyn, I got married and left to move to Washington, Oregon and Washington. 554 01:25:23.730 --> 01:25:34.410 And Dr. Heard, is it was a lovely person, he just died. This past year or this year earlier, but he I considered him a great mentor. 555 01:25:35.580 --> 01:25:44.370 People that group at times has as many as 40 people there and one evening it met every two weeks. There was a charge for it. 556 01:25:45.540 --> 01:25:48.570 People were expected to pay something at least and 557 01:25:50.340 --> 01:25:57.690 We call them graduates. So if someone had finished their time with the group that went on to acquire 558 01:25:58.650 --> 01:26:05.760 Hormones and surgery and we're as complete as they thought they needed to be personally. They were invited to come back to the group and to 559 01:26:06.120 --> 01:26:14.850 As for their own needs and to share with our clients. There's successes or warn them of problems and so on. So it worked out well. 560 01:26:15.540 --> 01:26:27.630 We also had a number of would be sorry. People who were already licenses therapist or psychologist who would come to the group and one use some of the anonymously, because we would 561 01:26:28.110 --> 01:26:39.300 Release any names. Use a battery of our psychological tests that we were reviewing did some research on the group and so on and so forth. Different reasons I was still meeting other people I met Josh will golden 562 01:26:40.350 --> 01:26:55.080 at UCLA, who was the head of their training program for sex therapists, they had a PR professionals who are doctors and psychologists, they had a six month training program that I was on the sex information hotline in Los Angeles. 563 01:26:56.220 --> 01:26:59.730 As their specialist on transgender issues that was all volunteer were 564 01:27:01.140 --> 01:27:07.650 We I in the process in those early years because I had a newsletter somehow we can't leave out 565 01:27:08.280 --> 01:27:19.110 Some of us found out about each other, some of the earlier publishers that you'll find in the in the in the mid 70s through even the mid 80s before the Internet. 566 01:27:19.620 --> 01:27:37.980 Was people tiny little mimeographed or newsletters had anywhere from four pages to 16 pages. There weren't any slick magazines or big thick booklets that people had the information. Often I was willing to share everything I want to help people. 567 01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:45.150 Can you remember the names of these specific ones that these these newsletters or another one called Renaissance, which was back east 568 01:27:46.770 --> 01:27:47.250 And 569 01:27:49.110 --> 01:27:49.380 You know, 570 01:27:51.540 --> 01:28:00.450 There was one from Georgia for me young woman, I think, Dallas later had hers. I could. I've got them all in my thing. I just can't bring them up. 571 01:28:02.220 --> 01:28:13.050 And then I was collecting newsletters and other things too, like other sexuality. So they also collected a lot of LGBT stuff that had nothing to do with T which Aaron tells me he doesn't want 572 01:28:15.030 --> 01:28:19.140 And so, but I was interested in the whole gamut. So 573 01:28:19.170 --> 01:28:20.790 I'll come across to the 574 01:28:20.820 --> 01:28:30.540 Sort of because there's a lesbian and gay activists and then became the LGBT LGBT. What's your relationship to these sort of evolving LGBT Q, etc. 575 01:28:30.570 --> 01:28:35.220 Well, I tried to stay with the whole alphabet soup because 576 01:28:37.680 --> 01:28:46.110 While I may have been treated in a different way. Now, as a trans person rather than a so called lesbian, whatever. 577 01:28:47.460 --> 01:29:01.740 I still had friends who were in that community. I still felt comfortable enough for the most part, to go in and out of that community. And I also wanted to stay up on the information, which is why I go to conferences now i i have 578 01:29:04.410 --> 01:29:12.270 I can teach the stuff I usually see when I go, I've been doing it for so many years, I'm hearing the same old stuff. Same old, same old stuff, same old stuff. 579 01:29:12.660 --> 01:29:24.660 But I still go because the value is there's a pearl there that every once in a while. That's absolutely knew or thought provoking or challenging or whatever you want and 580 01:29:25.140 --> 01:29:36.210 The networking and the people I get to me is the most invaluable part of being there in person. I can't get that otherwise I'm so but but 581 01:29:37.770 --> 01:29:40.920 And I'd like to keep up. I think that 582 01:29:42.840 --> 01:29:49.500 My clients and people that meet me who don't know my age and all that. So while I may look my age, they never think of me being that whole 583 01:29:50.850 --> 01:29:55.920 And I think part of it is because I do keep up on things, because I do have a mind that's up to date. 584 01:29:56.460 --> 01:30:12.930 That I can speak the language that they're speaking now and not use the old fashioned terms or where it was 20 years ago or it's just that my way is the right way and that you know what they're doing is a bastardization of what the real truth is, there's something 585 01:30:15.060 --> 01:30:24.870 Otherwise, I don't know, but I have all this stuff. I still collect it everywhere I go, my partner gets mad at me. I have to take an extra suitcase and pay another $50 to get it home. 586 01:30:25.710 --> 01:30:36.540 before I wrap it up at a box and spend 65 and ship it home before I leave the conference city and I have right now. I'm not going to turn my computer and show you but I have 587 01:30:37.680 --> 01:30:44.400 Just in the last. I'm going to say two months between what I print off at work. I would say that 588 01:30:45.480 --> 01:30:47.100 My print off at home. I've got a 589 01:30:48.150 --> 01:31:00.510 Three foot stack and a two and a half full stack of papers sitting on another table over and the other side of the room and two boxes that I had just clean the table off before I started collecting those sitting on the floor. 590 01:31:01.770 --> 01:31:15.330 And so I'm an avid collector of information is never enough, even when I was a kid, I used to have this team paste it on my desk. This is two things. One was, if you're so damn smart. Why didn't you rich 591 01:31:16.920 --> 01:31:22.380 And the other one was what I don't know my hurt me. 592 01:31:23.580 --> 01:31:29.730 So this constant need for acquiring more information and more and more, more. 593 01:31:32.160 --> 01:31:34.020 I can easily get you a 594 01:31:35.310 --> 01:31:45.690 list that I can send you later. But won't have now have some of the earlier things that we were interested in or I was interested in some of the ones I collected, what we did was exchanged newsletters. 595 01:31:46.650 --> 01:31:54.600 You know, to save the costs and, you know, I'll give you a copy my subscription mind if you union subscription to yours, kind of idea. 596 01:31:55.560 --> 01:32:10.590 Iran long before. And I'm going to say this because we can take our MTM conferences back to what 1995 in San Francisco, or there may have been a couple other smaller ones, but that was the main one first FDA and competence of the Americas. 597 01:32:12.540 --> 01:32:13.530 And I was there, but 598 01:32:14.610 --> 01:32:19.500 Long before that though Jude with his variety of interests. 599 01:32:21.120 --> 01:32:25.350 Virginia prints allowed me to come to her try meetings as a yes. 600 01:32:26.400 --> 01:32:37.020 There was another group in Los Angeles coach sheep CH IC cross dressers heterosexual interest social club, which was a branch off from 601 01:32:37.500 --> 01:32:54.780 Try us in the LA area, which were mostly younger people in cheek, but all of them identified is absolutely straight arrow heterosexual cross dressers. And God forbid gay or bisexual men get in there, but the truth was 6% were 602 01:32:56.010 --> 01:33:07.830 Just they just weren't gonna say it. And so knowing some of these other groups I there was no other fit in person for years and I mean for years. 603 01:33:08.190 --> 01:33:20.070 Who hung around with straight cross dressers and when I became a counselor, most of my clients were not trans people, they were stuff identified straight cross dressers and then then the rest started to come in as well. 604 01:33:21.150 --> 01:33:29.190 And still, at that time, James, green, and blue Southern started running some groups up there. I was already having people to my home. 605 01:33:29.640 --> 01:33:40.710 The difference, I think, was is Luke deliberately did it and run it as, as it's been said by him and other people and by James as a support group or FTS 606 01:33:41.670 --> 01:33:53.040 I ran groups at my house and every year had a large party to have we're using 150 people at the party, but the social group. It was her guys to get together to soak that wasn't run 607 01:33:53.700 --> 01:34:02.370 As a therapy support really as a peer support group. It was run for three people to have a place to go. 608 01:34:03.030 --> 01:34:07.410 And just get to know each other. And in that way, it became a peer support group. 609 01:34:08.010 --> 01:34:27.240 So, there weren't regular meetings, there were just as I got the idea or had the time oh okay next month. I'm going to have a group meeting or a potluck party at my house, you know, such and such a time, and so the first time I put out that word. I had 40 610 01:34:29.280 --> 01:34:30.360 Trans men. 611 01:34:31.710 --> 01:34:49.350 Who were. This is FDA moment I had Gordy trans men who were identified as heterosexual and four who identify as gay and their partners male partners and all of them had sis GENDER Male current at that 612 01:34:50.970 --> 01:34:57.510 Then I opened the group up to both male and female and female to male, then I opened up the groups for 613 01:34:59.250 --> 01:35:07.950 The people in the community to come, but also with their permission, buddy. In know there would be a professional guest or two there, they will for them to ask questions or 614 01:35:09.180 --> 01:35:24.180 Talk with them. So all the what was going on in his pro bono. I mean, you know, people I'd say potluck, and I'd get a call at the last minute and coming that I don't, I can't bring anything you might enjoy doing 12 other people who also be 615 01:35:25.590 --> 01:35:27.450 So it was really a 616 01:35:28.530 --> 01:35:33.930 labor of love for me and for my partners at the time my partner at the time. 617 01:35:36.570 --> 01:35:37.200 It was 618 01:35:39.420 --> 01:35:47.790 Fun. It was revealing. I kept doing it as long as I could. And as I said, right up until the time I got married probably 619 01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:54.120 But there were no formal, other than mention or so in 620 01:35:55.140 --> 01:35:57.270 Some of my newsletters about doing that. 621 01:35:59.070 --> 01:35:59.910 There was no 622 01:36:00.930 --> 01:36:12.840 You know, there's no, there's probably no history of a whole lot of this stuff that you're getting from me and i and i would have to go back and pull these things out and actually look at the history 623 01:36:13.470 --> 01:36:24.780 I found a few of my old newsletters, I didn't find them all by the way in which I i remember Jacob hail at Cal State Northridge would say when he first saw some he's 624 01:36:25.590 --> 01:36:40.050 My god, dude. Where did you get all that information. How did you do that when there was no internet and that stuff. And I don't know how either. But I'm talking about kinds of the broad field of sexuality, not just transitions. 625 01:36:40.410 --> 01:36:44.010 Right, but the the i i 626 01:36:45.300 --> 01:36:46.140 I give it to 627 01:36:48.120 --> 01:37:00.540 Again, the bellows. The other couples sex therapist Dr heard so much he mentored me and other ways that the people I met who told me this and i right again go look it up. 628 01:37:01.680 --> 01:37:17.130 And it just became that thing. And then when we did communicate certainly Rupert to this time was communicating with me about what he was doing, and also Mario was communicating with me. And it wasn't until later when Dr. Bob had a couple of guys who had 629 01:37:18.360 --> 01:37:35.850 Been clients of him as well as surgical clients who opened up their home to trans guys. He didn't live in California to stay there temporarily after their surgeries. So I met people like that by having people begin to network about who did this. Who did that. 630 01:37:38.070 --> 01:37:54.630 The that first MTN group was what it was. And then the and then a paid and key started doing them in Seattle, and until the last two or three years. I went to every one of his conferences, because I was mostly in Washington state, then 631 01:37:55.980 --> 01:38:13.950 I was as many times as I could with if G conferences which, in the beginning, had no FDA guys there whatsoever. Just meet. They know they didn't even invite him until it got to the point where they needed more bodies become, you really shouldn't say that, but it was and 632 01:38:15.030 --> 01:38:16.590 And and some of the other 633 01:38:18.810 --> 01:38:21.060 Straight cross dressers there's one 634 01:38:22.080 --> 01:38:32.640 Northwest Washington state that's held every Memorial Day, they're going to Montana Colorado and back east and you name it. 635 01:38:33.240 --> 01:38:41.400 And those are the bigger conferences and then I got to meet people who would correspond. We were all in those days. 636 01:38:42.210 --> 01:38:47.070 For the most part, there were some, as I said, who held everything close to their chest. They wouldn't give you 637 01:38:47.640 --> 01:38:55.110 One, I would have information, but they had very protective of that you might take it away from stealing or something new, something, whatever. 638 01:38:55.800 --> 01:39:14.400 And then there were others of us who shared every bit of what we could find this because we are mission was our activism. See, I only marches and prayed a few times. I'm not an in your face activist and you asked her definition of activism versus whatever else. Right. 639 01:39:14.430 --> 01:39:17.430 Yeah, I see myself as an advocate. 640 01:39:18.630 --> 01:39:21.180 And within that advocacy. 641 01:39:22.620 --> 01:39:30.960 accomplishing something that might be done alternative the activism. So I always see myself as the guy behind the scenes, who has 642 01:39:32.970 --> 01:39:35.460 Been uses reason 643 01:39:37.050 --> 01:39:37.890 Intact 644 01:39:39.150 --> 01:39:45.270 I will convince someone that these things need to be done to help people well 645 01:39:45.420 --> 01:39:48.060 In the US information to convince people as well. 646 01:39:48.420 --> 01:39:52.350 Yeah, yes, that that pretty much and and support. 647 01:39:53.640 --> 01:39:59.190 But I've never been in your face, kind of, and I learned early on the hard way. 648 01:40:01.380 --> 01:40:01.830 That 649 01:40:04.050 --> 01:40:07.680 Probably some things are better left unsaid. No matter how strong 650 01:40:09.330 --> 01:40:17.370 I'll tell my partner, I trust, it's going to work out the rest of it. I don't want anybody to hear because they're going to use it in a positive way. Years ago. 651 01:40:17.910 --> 01:40:36.570 I went to my newsletter. I wrote something and it was Angela Douglas I don't ran across her name, but she was an early really in your face activist in LA area. I mean, in your face in degree and she was, she was bipolar and off the wall and really 652 01:40:38.490 --> 01:40:49.950 later became psychotic, but I said something that tipped her off in her new in my newsletter and next thing I know she she I think she had a little newsletter or something, she was 653 01:40:50.970 --> 01:41:07.260 Here's a picture of a gorilla with label Jude and IT SAID RUDE Jude and she called me and threatened, she was going to send some of goons to kill me for six weeks, six months I was actually worried enough. I used to wear boots. So I could the taller know 654 01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:11.850 So I carried a hunting knife. Step down and one of my boots. 655 01:41:13.290 --> 01:41:26.550 Because she was that crazy to follow through with some of these threats. They had to happen. Other people not getting killed. But certainly getting as. And so, you know, there's this contingent 656 01:41:27.780 --> 01:41:41.880 I feel personally, we need us all, we need the ones who are researching who are trying to find some semblance of truth or information to share. We need people who are just nurtures and hold us and 657 01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:49.200 Take care of us in that way. And our emotions and our feelings and we need people in your face with signs and fits 658 01:41:50.250 --> 01:42:07.350 We need them all, but in my instance, I guess I don't do it well enough, and I get more accomplished by being the quiet voice behind the scenes, who tries to use that reason and that experience and that bit of optimism that somebody finally will this and Sunday. 659 01:42:08.040 --> 01:42:14.310 Right. No, I also haven't been successful with this. I have to interject what we're talking about that. 660 01:42:14.850 --> 01:42:32.040 The last almost 10 years or so I've been advocating to W path, particularly for a separate section on aging in tenders bowl. They have done. It's been 43 damn years. I'm sorry. It's been 4140 years 661 01:42:33.120 --> 01:42:34.320 Since I was 662 01:42:36.780 --> 01:42:51.210 Voted to be on the board of directors for Harry Benjamin in 1979 and that's the first year when the standards of care came out, I did not even help to write those Paul Walker wrote. Most of them. Most of those two pages worth my time. 663 01:42:52.470 --> 01:42:58.320 But other people had an input to but Dr. Lao again was instrumental in getting me 664 01:43:00.030 --> 01:43:04.200 On the board and he they were the meeting and 665 01:43:05.460 --> 01:43:18.180 It had a couple of other meetings before where a bunch of very in your face straight cross dressers Virginia prints included would come to their meetings and insist 666 01:43:18.960 --> 01:43:29.790 On being included in Harry Benjamin because they deserve to be there too long with all these transsexual folks and they were literally kind of scared to death, and they were that vocal than that. 667 01:43:30.810 --> 01:43:31.530 You're attaining 668 01:43:31.800 --> 01:43:32.130 Right. 669 01:43:32.160 --> 01:43:34.980 To mobile to ask for this stuff or demand. 670 01:43:36.660 --> 01:43:37.380 So, 671 01:43:38.400 --> 01:43:43.020 That in 1970 at the meeting. There were Dr. Rob suggested 672 01:43:44.610 --> 01:43:56.280 It was about time that they selected a consumer advocate to represent the people. The people we people and 673 01:43:57.300 --> 01:43:58.050 All of the people. 674 01:43:58.530 --> 01:44:05.670 All the people he has a one one person to join the board okay we recommended me and that was 675 01:44:06.840 --> 01:44:08.700 Not um 676 01:44:11.970 --> 01:44:13.020 And the vote came to 677 01:44:14.280 --> 01:44:17.310 Date on a Sunday morning. Most people have left their only 678 01:44:20.160 --> 01:44:22.800 30 people there, including me, so I don't get to vote. 679 01:44:24.240 --> 01:44:28.710 And the vote was 15. I'm sorry. The boat was 14 to 14 680 01:44:30.660 --> 01:44:36.630 And the end there were words said by the dissenters that were very nasty. 681 01:44:38.550 --> 01:44:42.900 Implying that we were all crazy people. They didn't want a crazy person on their board of directors. 682 01:44:43.980 --> 01:44:44.640 And Dr. 683 01:44:46.470 --> 01:44:47.490 This glass and the 684 01:44:53.700 --> 01:44:54.690 Same goes for me. Yeah. 685 01:44:54.930 --> 01:45:00.510 Okay. All right. Good, maybe being kind and considerate taking care of these poor crazy people. 686 01:45:00.540 --> 01:45:01.470 COME EVERY TWO PEOPLE. 687 01:45:01.500 --> 01:45:16.380 Gotcha. And so now raises head and becomes 1514 and I get put on their board for six years okay years went by before there was another known out trans. There may event. 688 01:45:16.860 --> 01:45:27.960 But there was nobody was out if they were a years long before there was another trans person on the board. There were some trans persons who did join 689 01:45:28.950 --> 01:45:37.140 Barry Benjamin who were on a couple of committees and things like that, but they weren't doing that. So I did that for six years from 1979 to 690 01:45:38.190 --> 01:45:50.700 Letter was 1985 and then I was on a lot of committees and things in the scientific committees using excuse you helped put this conference together for the next time. 691 01:45:52.260 --> 01:46:09.000 I was on those several times and we'll answer some other committees and and then in 1999 when Richard green was president and still there's no other in in that interim once my time term was up there was no other consumer advocate. 692 01:46:10.320 --> 01:46:22.920 ever suggested again 1999 comes along and I'm still very act i voted what i k. And then we're inside the United States. I've never traveled to Europe and Cambodia and wherever else 693 01:46:25.710 --> 01:46:29.160 Richard green was president and he came to me and to Sheila Kirk. 694 01:46:30.990 --> 01:46:42.360 Who's a well known FT or MTF Dr trans woman, and he just privately said to us, he said, you know, you know, there's just too much going on that community isn't involved in 695 01:46:43.290 --> 01:46:53.670 And I want, I want to form. I want to have you. And Sheila run for being board members. I want you to get yourself elected to this and we work 696 01:46:54.750 --> 01:46:59.460 And we became we became the along with being on the board. 697 01:47:01.170 --> 01:47:09.930 Co chairs of the consumer advocate committee. So we were on the board of directors, be able to do all the other stuff. But then we had to head this committee as well. 698 01:47:10.440 --> 01:47:25.830 About a year into a cheetah for personal reasons decided she wasn't gonna she stayed on the board, but she gave up the committee co chair and I had we had several people want to be on the committee which most of them may want to do that too. 699 01:47:26.850 --> 01:47:28.650 And James green 700 01:47:33.780 --> 01:47:36.240 Kit rachlin we're on a committee well 701 01:47:37.320 --> 01:47:39.240 Well, pretty soon. 702 01:47:41.550 --> 01:47:48.810 Somewhere in that period of time. Both of them were not very happy with what I was doing, as the now single chair. 703 01:47:50.730 --> 01:47:52.440 And so they wrote being asked, you know, it's all 704 01:47:55.260 --> 01:48:00.270 I said, I'm sorry. You know, I wanted to say, well, if you can do a better do it yourself. 705 01:48:02.220 --> 01:48:04.830 I just said, I'm sorry. I'll try to do better and 706 01:48:06.900 --> 01:48:18.360 And and but we all have maintained. Cool. The you'll ties through the years, you know, all of us and they have gone on to do such great things of course then later. 707 01:48:18.840 --> 01:48:33.780 Stephen widow with whom I also was in contact with. And here's a little story about Stephen told me years ago when I finally met him, he said, I was on the Phil Donahue show very early on as a guest, you know, to be interviewed is one of those things. 708 01:48:35.820 --> 01:48:36.270 And 709 01:48:37.860 --> 01:48:49.140 That's at the end of the show still living in Santa Ana, California had a P. O. Box. So I did this show, and it was shown in different timeframes over a cycle of almost a year in different parts of the country and repeated. 710 01:48:51.450 --> 01:48:55.860 Apparently I went to Europe to because Stephen told me he'd seen the show. At some point, there's so much other than 711 01:48:56.910 --> 01:49:09.000 And it just young guy kind of like revising when I met him, and he managed to scribble down my name and address and wrote to me and I answered. 712 01:49:11.880 --> 01:49:20.670 He said he'd written to so many people. And no one has ever taken the time to answer him back. I was the only one. And I thought, 713 01:49:21.720 --> 01:49:28.680 You know, thank goodness, I answered. I got, I can remember the number 341 letters. 714 01:49:30.450 --> 01:49:31.080 From people 715 01:49:32.430 --> 01:49:33.510 Podunk everywhere. 716 01:49:36.270 --> 01:49:44.850 Mostly in the United States, wanting help wanting information and I sat there down there again, everyone I screamed, about two weeks. 717 01:49:47.370 --> 01:49:56.700 Later, when I got my newsletter going I invited them to that tell them everything that I knew how invited them to keep up correspondence with a lot of good 718 01:49:58.200 --> 01:50:01.650 So for me it's always been this feeling of what a gift. 719 01:50:02.970 --> 01:50:05.130 To be able to do something that 720 01:50:07.200 --> 01:50:15.480 Look what happened with me. Had I not met David in those circumstances that they did. I don't think that was serendipitous. I think these 721 01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:26.850 things always happen for a reason. And it was the right time, I had been searching for years and it and it would have come later sure at some point. 722 01:50:27.300 --> 01:50:37.620 But it was the right time for me and here's this man who revealed Himself and was kind enough to take an interest to invite me to share information that he had 723 01:50:38.310 --> 01:50:46.140 And that's, to me, to this day, what it's all about. And we say, you know, and I know we still have unquote poker, folks. 724 01:50:46.890 --> 01:51:02.700 Who are just, I've got one of my people writing for me now just started transitioning. She's 65 or 67 just started her transition last year and in 2018 and so we still have a new story I'm reading that she said to me. 725 01:51:03.960 --> 01:51:12.720 This is like she's known for years, which couldn't do anything family, the staff something else. But then the information she needed the time came together, which he could 726 01:51:13.170 --> 01:51:23.340 Be dead results in a divorce. Unfortunately, but apparently she and the x and our kids and grandkids are all okay about her being her but still we still have people today who 727 01:51:24.360 --> 01:51:29.790 Certainly big heard about it, most likely, but they don't know where to go and start, who do you see, yeah. 728 01:51:31.050 --> 01:51:31.440 And 729 01:51:33.180 --> 01:51:43.230 I also think the conferences I tried not to miss as they as they continued and developed. I went to the 730 01:51:48.330 --> 01:51:56.280 American boys conferences on the East Coast. When I found out from when they started the first few years. I didn't even know about it with all way. 731 01:51:59.100 --> 01:52:11.400 And I've been I started going and I was at their last conference, and they had a goodly number of people had they would still probably be going on but a few people range. 732 01:52:12.660 --> 01:52:13.290 For everyone 733 01:52:14.880 --> 01:52:19.020 The vast conference. I can't remember which year was very 2000s. 734 01:52:20.700 --> 01:52:25.470 I'm there. No, meet my friend Hawk stone. So were there at the conference. 735 01:52:26.250 --> 01:52:37.530 Along with a whole bunch of other people. And my wife and come with me because our kids were living in near DC at the time and she was staying with our adult children. My son older son, and I'm at the conference at the hotel. 736 01:52:38.760 --> 01:52:43.170 But going back and forth to the Masons. Well, that 737 01:52:45.240 --> 01:52:55.830 That the next morning after the conference started it snowed 22 inches overnight and the freeways were closed in the airports were closing the roads were closed and the Washington DC was shut down. 738 01:52:56.700 --> 01:53:05.730 And nobody could get in or out. And so everybody was stuck at that hotel, including a whole bunch hundreds of young people with no money. 739 01:53:07.140 --> 01:53:09.540 Okay, are very little money, who had just come for the day. 740 01:53:10.290 --> 01:53:26.100 Right. Who do you could not afford a room and didn't have enough money for food or just were there for three days are running out of food. The workers can go home. They were stuck in the hotel room with us, who else what happened was too early for the rest of its 741 01:53:28.290 --> 01:53:29.280 Of eternity is 742 01:53:30.360 --> 01:53:35.010 About 50 young people under the age of 25 743 01:53:36.690 --> 01:53:37.410 Where 744 01:53:40.620 --> 01:53:58.050 They did everything from still food and drinks, right into your nose to having sex in the hallways in the pool room. They had our orgies one the whole time during the night they tore art off the walls, a dedicated in the hallways upstairs. 745 01:53:59.250 --> 01:54:02.730 Just made the thing and no other hotel, whatever, have them. 746 01:54:04.410 --> 01:54:06.810 occupy their hotel for conference again with that. 747 01:54:08.070 --> 01:54:11.040 Okay, I thought, you know, well, just a few people. 748 01:54:13.410 --> 01:54:24.090 Mostly doping and drinking and then you know I like sex too but I used to doing it publicly or anything like that. And I don't think I've ever shit in the hallway. 749 01:54:25.290 --> 01:54:25.650 But 750 01:54:26.010 --> 01:54:38.820 But I thought how sad that here's all these people come together for so many years with all this benefit for these young people and you take just a few of them and it's gone because of what they did. 751 01:54:40.080 --> 01:54:41.340 The other thing that is going on. 752 01:54:41.340 --> 01:54:45.360 Operational the difference there and how people assume acceptable behavior. 753 01:54:46.380 --> 01:54:49.950 Yeah. Well, the other end. It was a part of what seemed to 754 01:54:51.810 --> 01:55:06.000 Be going on in the early 2000s to maybe like tech everywhere I went to a conference where I don't know how to put this there was the assumption by young people, there's less of that today. They're still there. So, 755 01:55:07.500 --> 01:55:18.150 You owe me You owe me. I don't need or want to work. I don't have to. And I don't want to, but you owe me being here because I need your information you need to give it to 756 01:55:18.630 --> 01:55:25.440 And I'm not going to give you anything back for it. I'm not going to volunteer. I'm not going to be grateful at all. I'm just going to take what you have 757 01:55:26.010 --> 01:55:39.510 And it's not enough. So, people began crashing the conference. They crashed when they had one in Vancouver, or W path. There was a group that crashed that conference, not as big of a group, maybe 20 people 758 01:55:41.490 --> 01:55:52.650 demanding to be heard, which is enough, they were allowed to be heard, but demanding to the interest for free. When I have to pay $450 to get right. And I can no more important than them. 759 01:55:53.970 --> 01:55:57.930 Stealing again stealing the food that was are being fed for free. 760 01:55:59.400 --> 01:56:05.040 And then stealing the program pamphlets and other materials of people on their seats overseas. 761 01:56:06.180 --> 01:56:19.050 Right. What this stuff where this certain groups of yet. And they're all young. I didn't see any 65 year olds are middle aged people doing it this way, empowering this generation of 762 01:56:20.640 --> 01:56:21.810 Gimme gimme gimme 763 01:56:22.950 --> 01:56:25.410 And no, I refuse to do anything. 764 01:56:26.520 --> 01:56:28.380 Of any sort of help to you. 765 01:56:29.850 --> 01:56:31.110 And the sense of 766 01:56:31.110 --> 01:56:31.830 Community, the 767 01:56:32.850 --> 01:56:33.180 Person. 768 01:56:34.650 --> 01:56:35.160 I'm sorry. 769 01:56:35.760 --> 01:56:38.640 Not the same sense of community that you would work so hard to foster to 770 01:56:38.730 --> 01:56:42.090 build those No. Whoa, whoa, and 771 01:56:44.400 --> 01:56:48.120 And that has changed a great deal. I think part of it is that 772 01:56:49.770 --> 01:57:06.600 Many they'll, they'll many groups, still don't have enough funding people like Philadelphia is free to get in great cost me $3,000 to fly from my in my partner to fly their rent a hotel for five days and eat $3,000 773 01:57:07.680 --> 01:57:19.140 If I lived in Philadelphia. I could go for free, but I don't live in Philadelphia and they're never going to change. I've been to the I've been to. It's called creating change a couple of times. 774 01:57:20.910 --> 01:57:21.300 I 775 01:57:22.830 --> 01:57:29.370 Couldn't believe myself. The first time I went, it was in Chicago. They were having me and I still do have a lot of trouble with Chicago cop some 776 01:57:30.390 --> 01:57:31.140 People color. 777 01:57:32.670 --> 01:57:53.520 And it was a the Black Lives Matters more to the hotel where I was, who were many of the conference attendees. They were very well behaved. It was well organized. They were simply carrying flags and then placards and chanting, you know, somebody cops hotel security calls the cops. 778 01:57:57.120 --> 01:58:08.730 Which just created, whatever it was. And so now this woman who had been organizing this for 30 years gets all the flack from the people of color communities and everybody else who support them about my golf. 779 01:58:09.210 --> 01:58:21.330 She didn't call them cops nobody in their group who put it on call the cops right there's hope and security, who come and the cops really did do it. They didn't Hall people they could, they weren't doing it. 780 01:58:22.590 --> 01:58:23.820 They weren't doing anything wrong. 781 01:58:24.180 --> 01:58:30.840 But it did create this fear in people who already had here. The other thing that happened is they tried to invite 782 01:58:33.330 --> 01:58:34.230 A speaker. 783 01:58:35.940 --> 01:58:54.270 Oh, from ice. They tried to the ice wanted to come to try to communicate and learn what they needed to do with people who were trans right you know that was their reason for coming. Oh my god, you're inviting ice. My God. 784 01:58:56.160 --> 01:59:03.060 Your audience, you know, the same thing. And I understand the fears, but they didn't listen to. They weren't even willing to listen. 785 01:59:03.900 --> 01:59:14.610 And how are you going to learn. They were afraid that if we invited or they invited. I said, I guess, they'd be arrested on it would be an excuse for them to arrest anybody they found there. 786 01:59:15.060 --> 01:59:33.060 Right. Right. Yeah. And that was, and I know that wasn't there. I know that people that organized. Some of these things. Thank goodness and if so they got in touch with ISIS. I'm sorry you can't come. We've got too many objections to it. So there's been all along this behind the 787 01:59:34.710 --> 01:59:51.960 Scenes of people who are very, very well meaning and trying to serve trying to serve everyone if they can try and to be diverse. I don't know. Did you go to, or you us path meeting W path this us path meeting this past year. No. 788 01:59:52.080 --> 01:59:55.140 No, not me. Last, last one. I went to wisdom, Netherlands, for 789 01:59:55.230 --> 02:00:02.370 Okay. Yeah, well I the US path meeting was here this year earlier and I was there and I was on 790 02:00:04.650 --> 02:00:12.870 The last day. It was a panel of is supposed to be three people on the panel and moderator and one person didn't show up. It was Marci Bowers of me who were 791 02:00:13.920 --> 02:00:15.600 The two vets on the panel, but 792 02:00:17.010 --> 02:00:24.810 They decided the US path committee was putting this on decided to pay for, they call them. 793 02:00:25.890 --> 02:00:29.430 repertory rapper rapper rapper rapper tours. 794 02:00:31.260 --> 02:00:32.520 Yeah. Yes, I know you're talking 795 02:00:32.520 --> 02:00:32.970 About yeah 796 02:00:34.050 --> 02:00:34.440 Yeah, so 797 02:00:34.500 --> 02:00:49.680 We funded, I think, was five, I don't think I'm 75 funding full funding meals. No BS hotels travel to come there and speak for the community and they wanted to make sure that they were people of color and they were 798 02:00:50.910 --> 02:01:06.030 And they get up there instead of speaking and they're nasty there hounding they're blaming, they're all this crap in your face about what's not happening for them. I thought you ungrateful little wretches here you could approach this. 799 02:01:07.470 --> 02:01:08.310 You were invited 800 02:01:09.780 --> 02:01:11.460 You weren't invited to be nasty. 801 02:01:12.810 --> 02:01:26.400 You're doing the very same thing to these well meaning people that you claim this happening to you every day of your life and i understand i mean i'm DON'T GET ME. I'VE HAD MY NAME CALLING AND ALL THAT MY LIFE, too. And it was very hurtful. 802 02:01:27.630 --> 02:01:34.470 But I thought doesn't anybody get it, and most of the people on the panel were educated young 803 02:01:35.520 --> 02:01:55.980 People who held responsible positions. Is this the only way you know how to present your, your, your position is with finger them in your face stuff and it wasn't met very well with, I can tell you behind the scenes with those people run the organization who are other Members. 804 02:01:57.000 --> 02:02:00.390 It's not a place to behave like that. It's like I 805 02:02:02.220 --> 02:02:19.800 Understand the bitterness and anger. No one should be treated that way ever. But if you want to negotiate a different way of being treated don't act like we're trying to keep. I mean, if you're being treated that way for the very reason you're acting this way. Don't, don't. 806 02:02:20.460 --> 02:02:21.570 Farm pigs in the kitchen. 807 02:02:22.680 --> 02:02:31.380 Yeah, so I might want to cut out a whole lot of these things that I'm saying about things like that, because if it gets out public is old dudes GOING TO BE TRUMPED under the under the mud. 808 02:02:31.800 --> 02:02:41.070 In some ways, I might want to be more or less direct about that. That's more again personal feelings that I don't often share 809 02:02:41.490 --> 02:02:54.690 But I see my mom I'm old fashioned I listened to my mom's old sayings and one of the most prominent saves was said by my mom and the other one will have said by Thumper Bambi spread 810 02:02:57.240 --> 02:02:57.540 Like 811 02:02:58.920 --> 02:02:59.670 Thumper said 812 02:03:00.990 --> 02:03:03.600 If you can't say something nice. Don't say nothing at all. 813 02:03:03.990 --> 02:03:04.530 Right. 814 02:03:06.540 --> 02:03:11.820 My mom said an old saying you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. 815 02:03:13.410 --> 02:03:24.600 And if people listen to that little bit of homily little bit. I think it's more relative than we think to how we present ourselves to people. We are more likely 816 02:03:25.200 --> 02:03:33.960 If I thought I was going to have a meeting people who immediately attacked me on what often seem like a more personal level and ignored. 817 02:03:35.130 --> 02:03:44.220 The attempt at least making some kind of peace or making an opening for people to be there and speak there. 818 02:03:46.170 --> 02:03:57.960 Right when the just can't resist be civil. Yeah, my little granddaughter when when Holly, who lived with us for seven years before mom got married again she and her mom. 819 02:03:59.490 --> 02:04:06.180 And she got so attached to me and my wife and when her mom met the president husband. 820 02:04:08.400 --> 02:04:17.790 Was about seven and she'd been with me almost six years. I remember her crying and wanting a group hug. And she says, Can't we all just be a family. 821 02:04:19.560 --> 02:04:20.100 Together. 822 02:04:21.390 --> 02:04:38.760 And and maybe that's my plea to is. Can't we all just be the family and love each other and take care of each other and look out for each other. And when we're unable to do something that we think we should be able to do instead of other mining 823 02:04:40.170 --> 02:04:56.250 Or self lightning. Can we all just work together, pull together what you know to have good things happen for all this i don't know i i would hope so, but I get a kind of a dreamer. 824 02:04:57.570 --> 02:05:08.820 All of my life about stuff like that. And I do see change. I do see I have seen change my partner and I agreed in 2015 825 02:05:09.870 --> 02:05:10.920 When the marriage. 826 02:05:11.940 --> 02:05:24.570 When marriage was made legal route to country that we thought we would never in our lifetime, see that happen. Right. And I've spent every year since this last election wondering what happened. 827 02:05:26.070 --> 02:05:36.630 And every day. I'm at my worst when when the news comes through on my computer or my TV set about something that the current administration, particularly our 828 02:05:38.850 --> 02:05:39.300 Trump 829 02:05:40.440 --> 02:05:45.660 Right, I just gag. I'm so angry and so 830 02:05:48.870 --> 02:05:57.120 The words I may say, would you don't want to hear my partner says, well, you turn that off, you're going to have a heart attack or another stroke. 831 02:05:59.220 --> 02:06:03.150 Here, it's still an eye out. Can we have 832 02:06:04.380 --> 02:06:07.860 In this country, the kind of viewpoints that support. 833 02:06:09.300 --> 02:06:30.270 Him or anything because Hello people. How can so called good people. If you will believe that tripe, and that rock in those lies yeah and and and stand up for it and people see. Oh, he's just like Jesus Christ. He's like the god god to us. 834 02:06:31.770 --> 02:06:32.850 Okay, I 835 02:06:33.660 --> 02:06:35.550 In the center blind faith. Okay. 836 02:06:36.060 --> 02:06:38.640 It is well, that is, the other is 837 02:06:39.840 --> 02:06:53.100 We see already what's happening in other countries. And what has happened in our own country before it doesn't take much more and what's happening now to shift the balance so that the law is passed that I'll be hanged, simply because of who we are. Right. 838 02:06:54.660 --> 02:06:57.630 Or shot. Get ready. Yeah, we put on this. 839 02:06:58.860 --> 02:07:01.290 And I, you know, I'm not saying that. 840 02:07:03.180 --> 02:07:13.530 openly and I think in some ways that worry will be there. Well, I'll go down. I will be another Joan of Arc, I will be tied to the state. I will never event. 841 02:07:14.550 --> 02:07:16.560 But what we shouldn't have to 842 02:07:18.720 --> 02:07:20.010 The earlier years 843 02:07:24.570 --> 02:07:35.550 Were for me were filled like I told you the ones I started doing a lot of guest speaking about coincidentally, then in 1980 I got my license as 844 02:07:36.390 --> 02:07:44.280 Marriage and Family therapists, I opened up my own private practice and most people I saw it and I was certified already a sex therapist and educator 845 02:07:44.760 --> 02:07:50.400 I did a lot of that for straight people and LGBT people about their sexual lives and so on. 846 02:07:51.090 --> 02:07:57.480 And what might be going wrong there. But mostly, what I did was counseling trans people, and anyone under the transgender umbrella. 847 02:07:57.840 --> 02:08:09.540 And anyone who was LGBT whatever who wanted to come to me for some sort of support or help or information. I will say there are an area on the Kenyans one of them. 848 02:08:10.860 --> 02:08:16.410 Those who relied on the that population for their living 849 02:08:17.790 --> 02:08:29.940 By 1990 were decimated right by the Internet. Now you information was at your fingertips. Because most people came to me initially came for work and I get hormones. 850 02:08:30.510 --> 02:08:34.620 Where can I find a doctor who will see me. We're going to get surgery. How long is it 851 02:08:34.980 --> 02:08:46.560 That you live as a trans person. And what was it like for you. Can you give me any advice. Can you tell me what to do. You know, can you give me support. It wasn't about oh, woe is me and I need counseling for my depression. 852 02:08:47.460 --> 02:08:48.690 Or right 853 02:08:51.090 --> 02:08:54.000 Once the internet opened up, I would say. 854 02:08:55.320 --> 02:09:04.350 The numbers of people just instead of skyrocketing. It went the other direction, even though you know appointments were hard to come by. When you specialize in that 855 02:09:05.070 --> 02:09:12.750 The wife, my senses of marriage and family counselor and as a mental health counselor and as a PA and as a Gretchen beach pictures. My 856 02:09:13.500 --> 02:09:31.830 Mother as a marriage of family counselor. I'm eating it was hard for me to be a family person and I never would. And never want to do family counseling with kids and adults, trying to get everybody to go along and I never did that. In fact, as part of my title as a counselor, so 857 02:09:33.030 --> 02:09:48.360 I and there wasn't certainly wasn't much other than sometimes some contributions occasional a small stipend from a colleague that would support me and only doing guest speaking, but the truth was, I cobbled everything together. I was still living in a house that my 858 02:09:50.550 --> 02:09:53.400 And a house that my payments were only $206 859 02:09:54.540 --> 02:10:09.270 And I was making a lot more money than that. And so it got to a place where, oh, and then when I got my pa license. Two years later. Now I could make five times the money I made as a counselor. Okay, by being a PA literally 860 02:10:09.750 --> 02:10:19.440 Since I was getting by. And practically nothing earnings on a private practice. So I still kept my private practice. I went to USC School of Medicine. I was 861 02:10:20.340 --> 02:10:35.970 It's a two year program for the PA training. And then when I got out. I started working in toxicology device first job and then I did some family practice which I knew I wouldn't care to do because you got to see about six to 10 people every hour. 862 02:10:37.020 --> 02:10:42.870 And somewhere in there. And then he did some other specialties here and there. And all through this. So they may begin work. 863 02:10:43.350 --> 02:10:54.900 In California, which was very lucrative working in workers comp clinics where people get injured on the job and then they sue their employer for medical care and compensation for their injuries. 864 02:10:56.070 --> 02:11:03.360 And I work both sides, I worked the insurance side and it worked at plaintiff side. And they also did other legal medicine stuff. 865 02:11:03.960 --> 02:11:15.090 And it was lucrative we got to a place where my wife Carol, and I got married. We didn't even have a computer internet, it just started going off really big and people were using it to work at home. 866 02:11:15.780 --> 02:11:23.610 And so our employer gave us a computer work with at home, which he set up on a table in the bedroom taper off. 867 02:11:24.570 --> 02:11:39.150 We ran a business for about three years that it had we had the laws not changed in the circumstances around workers comp not change the first nine months, we did this, we made $370,000 working at home. 868 02:11:40.230 --> 02:11:40.710 Wow. 869 02:11:41.850 --> 02:11:42.630 We had 870 02:11:45.900 --> 02:11:55.230 12 transcribers he worked part time for us in their own home. I taught and Carol was with us within the medical transcribers so she 871 02:11:56.100 --> 02:12:14.070 We send all our tapes out I dictated all the histories and stuff I addicted. I taught her how to dictate some we put things we made templates, we did this, we did that to simplify. So we charge them $85 every port. The doctor. They got 872 02:12:15.300 --> 02:12:18.810 1200 and $50 for the report from the state. 873 02:12:19.890 --> 02:12:35.400 In our transcribers got $15 a report that are 85 and they could do these for an hour, which gave them a $60 dollar income and they couldn't get more than working in a home. Everybody was happy. Everybody was working on this now. 874 02:12:36.900 --> 02:12:54.480 And then kaboom. They changed the laws and we hadn't Gregor put our tails between our legs of drag back. We were either job. We didn't miss spinner money. We've got a different house. We had a paid cash for Dan that we could use that was on sale we did 875 02:12:56.220 --> 02:13:06.960 Spend for four cruises within a year, but everything else was put aside or winter. The kids are paid for their education or more education for us. 876 02:13:08.100 --> 02:13:19.260 And then we just didn't have the same money anymore. We had to go back to that ordinary pay a Carol was sick, more than she was well and then things got work that we did via form the 19 877 02:13:20.850 --> 02:13:22.290 I'm sorry 2003 878 02:13:24.690 --> 02:13:28.860 Which was my lifetime green to have my own little corn and the five acres 879 02:13:30.180 --> 02:13:32.250 I had three llamas 14 sheep. 880 02:13:34.680 --> 02:13:50.460 Six boats to Turkey or three turkeys six ducks about 75 chickens. And they might say that I had three llamas to guard on I go to my land in the right side and and Carol. 881 02:13:55.710 --> 02:13:57.120 Two years later Carol's kidney 882 02:14:00.960 --> 02:14:05.550 And then the next 10 years was basically she couldn't work. 883 02:14:06.990 --> 02:14:09.990 I had to continue working trying to take your mommy animals. 884 02:14:11.700 --> 02:14:13.170 Like could have the farm and sell 885 02:14:14.940 --> 02:14:18.930 Their mother, her brothers dumped their mother on us. 886 02:14:20.340 --> 02:14:22.080 But we can't possibly help with them. 887 02:14:23.370 --> 02:14:29.580 For a year, and she was in that middle stage of dementia, where she was just a mean bitch to Karen. 888 02:14:30.840 --> 02:14:31.560 And I had to 889 02:14:32.790 --> 02:14:35.520 do my best to keep that 890 02:14:37.170 --> 02:14:37.590 Open 891 02:14:38.730 --> 02:14:39.900 And Carol. 892 02:14:41.070 --> 02:14:48.090 had several accidents falling at home. Had she had osteoporosis and broken bones easily 893 02:14:50.100 --> 02:14:52.140 she'd rather we're on an escalator. 894 02:14:53.610 --> 02:15:01.170 JCPenney store. Her mother missteps fell backwards on Carol mother didn't get a scratch Carol in stuff with 895 02:15:05.220 --> 02:15:06.630 meniscus tear 896 02:15:12.810 --> 02:15:16.260 Let tibia fracture that a fracture. 897 02:15:17.310 --> 02:15:24.210 And back stop Carol later she gets you that six months. 898 02:15:25.320 --> 02:15:31.620 Or eight months in a long they cast and someone wheelchair so then a couple years later. 899 02:15:33.300 --> 02:15:33.600 In 900 02:15:34.680 --> 02:15:36.720 You know, Carol had 901 02:15:38.370 --> 02:15:43.590 That sepsis in her neck and the bones in her neck. They were rotting away. 902 02:15:44.610 --> 02:15:49.680 She almost died from the census was hospitalized for movie period of time. 903 02:15:50.850 --> 02:15:54.030 Was put in a nursing home for rehab after that happened and 904 02:15:57.450 --> 02:16:01.440 Well, in a nursing home fell and broke her neck and nobody knew after six weeks. 905 02:16:03.270 --> 02:16:05.010 They should set to go home. 906 02:16:06.810 --> 02:16:14.970 They took it finally took an x ray of her neck and they found that she had broken her neck in two places, two, and three. I mean, 907 02:16:18.540 --> 02:16:31.680 See, two, and three. Right. So now she's operated on that one, and has to wear one of those Halo devices for six months to try to get her neck to heal the answer doesn't heal. She has to go back and get 908 02:16:34.140 --> 02:16:38.040 neck surgery through the front and the back and all kinds of wires and supports her neck. 909 02:16:40.410 --> 02:16:47.790 She falls and breaks the collarbone at my daughter's house she's constantly has these times when she's doing that the whole time. She was an advocate. Oh. 910 02:16:48.120 --> 02:17:02.550 She was at home alone without any help. Well, I had to go to work. So we still have a house to live in. So it was really pretty much how how we get it. I don't know. Now, Chuck talks to me, my partner about some of the things, she'd been through her husband. 911 02:17:03.810 --> 02:17:06.720 Without going into a lot of detail. The reason he divorce her. 912 02:17:07.980 --> 02:17:16.380 He became psychotic had religious delusions. He thinks he's an apostle. He saw demons coming out of her mouth on and on. 913 02:17:17.190 --> 02:17:23.910 So she's going through all that well, Carol, and I are going through all the illnesses. This that family this that on on on 914 02:17:24.630 --> 02:17:40.050 And still we persevered and still I tried to do what I could you know within the community. And now I had the computer where I could do a lot of things behind the scenes. So there were a lot of the earlier even have to computer part when there weren't, you know, until the 915 02:17:42.690 --> 02:17:53.460 The F TN groups. The only two until recently, only American boys and gender Odyssey were regularly occurring. 916 02:17:54.000 --> 02:18:07.830 Things they really work. There may have been some somewhere else that I didn't know about and Philadelphia health came along later right well night and I didn't go to it for several years. Just because I could travel with Carol, the way she was and 917 02:18:11.040 --> 02:18:12.690 And I didn't, I will move into changing 918 02:18:16.980 --> 02:18:20.850 When I was telling talking about creative changed twice. Right. 919 02:18:22.200 --> 02:18:31.860 But there was there just wasn't you go and I will, and I W path. I haven't been since 2013 because I already have the money to travel. 920 02:18:32.700 --> 02:18:45.420 To the Netherlands or to Thailand or to now they want to have in China or dance and they haven't had it United States I did get to the first to us staff meetings this one. They had the first one and this one. 921 02:18:46.680 --> 02:18:54.180 I have gotten to a couple of see path meetings and I actually like what see path is doing more than I like what us path or W path is doing. 922 02:18:55.140 --> 02:18:58.020 What is, what is it that you're seen as the main difference that you liked it. 923 02:18:58.020 --> 02:19:11.670 Well, I think that the people themselves are more there's more camaraderie when you get there amongst the people and I don't even know them and they're very inclusive reading first time I went there as a member of see path I felt welcomed right at home. I mean, they were just 924 02:19:14.610 --> 02:19:33.360 W path has gotten bigger than it was. It's off in a different direction. I like some of the things they're accomplishing I did have a good time last time with them to 2013 out of school there was W path glamour and Southern Comfort all in the same 10 beliefs, I would all have 925 02:19:35.340 --> 02:19:45.510 Ad Hoc stone was going to come with me and couldn't get there, but my friend max Spearman, who's a psychologist in LA. He was that at one of them and so 926 02:19:46.680 --> 02:19:47.160 And then 927 02:19:48.450 --> 02:19:54.900 He had to go on to another conference later. So we spent a little time in Atlanta. I'm a Coca Cola got 928 02:19:56.070 --> 02:20:06.330 It. So I just had to go to the Coca Cola original Coca Cola headquarters in Atlanta, while I was there and get my picture taken with the polar bear and all that good stuff. 929 02:20:08.400 --> 02:20:09.030 Would you see like 930 02:20:09.270 --> 02:20:15.390 It says we're a major part of how you are able to access community and and feel that family feeling 931 02:20:16.890 --> 02:20:24.600 Yeah, it is. It's almost like going home again to me if I don't have. It's like, I get that. And the materials I drag home. 932 02:20:24.930 --> 02:20:26.400 Okay. And then if I can't get 933 02:20:26.910 --> 02:20:28.440 This here's a little scoop. If you 934 02:20:30.330 --> 02:20:43.620 From the very beginning, if I can't get to a conference, but at least now that they're, they tell you address that computer with your program is I'll pull off the program off the computer if I can't get there. And same thing with conference, I go to, but I can't get to every 935 02:20:44.850 --> 02:20:47.220 You know, because the four things going on at once. 936 02:20:47.430 --> 02:20:47.730 Right. 937 02:20:47.850 --> 02:20:57.660 I make I make up a letter and I send it to the speaker and I said I wasn't able, I was at the conference. I wasn't able to attend your session. Could you send me a copy of your what you presented 938 02:20:58.740 --> 02:21:05.160 Often they're very invested in their own work, of course, as they should be very often them successful with that. 939 02:21:07.050 --> 02:21:17.610 And so, yeah, it's like these pumps me I come back, high but I get I'm high right now just talking with you. 940 02:21:17.790 --> 02:21:20.820 It's all the information to really drive you in that way. 941 02:21:21.420 --> 02:21:23.850 Yeah, it drives me as if it's a drug. 942 02:21:24.150 --> 02:21:25.920 Yeah, I was like, 943 02:21:27.120 --> 02:21:28.860 I suppose my epinephrine or 944 02:21:29.940 --> 02:21:45.180 Whatever all those endorphins are just sky high. But we've always I've always been that way when I had those people over to my house. I had a set of friends that would come over once a month, we did silly things like playing charades only made it really complicated. 945 02:21:46.290 --> 02:21:53.610 We have a dictionary look up the most god awful words. We could think, try to call but when the nighttime King 946 02:21:54.420 --> 02:22:08.670 And the big parties and everybody had left the same core group to sit around I had big pool with fire at patio and a fire pit with sit around the fire pit toasting our toes not nobody drank nobody's drugs and there was no smoking in my house. 947 02:22:10.830 --> 02:22:16.920 My there might be 150 people there in the daytime and my neighbors only do I have that many people because there were cars parked. They said, 948 02:22:19.020 --> 02:22:20.730 You guys were so quiet. 949 02:22:22.080 --> 02:22:38.970 You know as because there wasn't driving alcohol problem that people got high on conversations and this core group, we would sit around there till three o'clock in the morning and some would say overnight, because we just didn't want to drive back on and we'd still be talking and 950 02:22:40.290 --> 02:22:49.050 laughing and joking and entertaining each other with just sharing information. Yeah. 951 02:22:50.340 --> 02:23:07.830 And I think I, I have to say this, if I were stuck in a place right now and didn't have a partner, I would have to go out and get that somewhere. And the only reason I can survive this. I have a partner at home who is is that kind of person who has interesting conversations and can 952 02:23:08.850 --> 02:23:14.190 And is supportive and and not that she never challenges because she does, but 953 02:23:15.330 --> 02:23:18.000 I'm sure I challenged her log but 954 02:23:19.050 --> 02:23:28.170 It's like a high and it's necessary, and I stayed pumped for three months and then where's the next conference and if it can't go. I am just in the dumps on just 955 02:23:28.530 --> 02:23:42.930 Don't even talk to me. I don't want to be here. I've got to do something to get myself out of this, I get a project Lloyd. So now with this stuff going with Margo having the publishing companies. She's supportive enough to as long as it's halfway 956 02:23:44.100 --> 02:23:45.030 She doesn't want to be 957 02:23:46.440 --> 02:23:56.580 We want to say publish crap, she's not interested, please. You just anything but she's supportive enough to work with people who don't know how to write like me or have never been an offer. 958 02:23:58.590 --> 02:24:08.280 To hopefully publish something is halfway decent that some people want to read that is worthwhile if nothing more than preserving history like that your oral projects, trying to 959 02:24:09.570 --> 02:24:11.790 Do something meaningful right and 960 02:24:11.820 --> 02:24:21.570 Yeah, and and and we do have self publishing. Now, which I think is a boon to many people who don't have a marvel in there, you know, in their, their range of friends, but 961 02:24:22.890 --> 02:24:32.310 But the reality is it for someone like me, it would never get published, unless I self published. Right. And so knowing that there is a 962 02:24:32.970 --> 02:24:42.090 That it can be and that will create is that it might be useful to somebody who's looking for some of this history. Now the luxury. You and I don't have right now is 963 02:24:42.510 --> 02:24:49.530 I can't go over there in that corner and run through papers to say, oh, here's security is that was the name of that new newsletter that I told you. 964 02:24:50.280 --> 02:24:51.600 That I'd be very happy for that. 965 02:24:52.680 --> 02:24:53.040 Yeah. 966 02:24:53.280 --> 02:25:05.100 But I can do that later to add to this and then you can just interject it somehow they say well, or we can make another settlements shorter session sometime, and here I am. Here's the stuff you've been looking for. 967 02:25:05.190 --> 02:25:12.600 Definitely, yeah. If those things come up definitely can either let me know about that we could do another recording, you can just, you know, send me a photo or we can 968 02:25:12.630 --> 02:25:15.540 Definitely it's like into the video later. So no, I 969 02:25:15.840 --> 02:25:23.580 Don't know if you've had, I haven't. There's a photo of Joanna and me evaluated Saunders, who was with the ACLU 970 02:25:25.080 --> 02:25:25.470 She was 971 02:25:27.060 --> 02:25:30.810 Not an attorney, but I think like a week later, and 972 02:25:33.570 --> 02:25:34.350 To other people 973 02:25:35.460 --> 02:25:37.590 Joy Schaefer 974 02:25:38.880 --> 02:25:42.510 And Candace brown and it was the first 975 02:25:44.160 --> 02:25:46.500 A LLC transsexual rights committee. 976 02:25:47.760 --> 02:25:59.880 And as an LA. Well, there's a picture I can send you a reference to get to a website where that is. And then I have an interesting when I can easily. I don't. You might have seen it, but it was a picture that was taken in 1970s 977 02:26:00.960 --> 02:26:10.740 In June, must have been earlier than June, because they publish it in June. It's a picture of the Black Canary Khan, who was at that time and out 978 02:26:12.000 --> 02:26:25.590 trans woman who had been a musician as a male and who wrote her book called canary and Canary was asked to do with an article for the leader not Playgirl advisor. 979 02:26:27.150 --> 02:26:37.680 Which was a competitor of Playboy things, but it's a smaller, smaller little magazine. So she did her story and then they asked her if she knew. Anybody else like me. 980 02:26:38.160 --> 02:26:57.000 And she did we knew each other. And so she interviewed me for a story and I have picture. There's a picture there of Canarian me sitting on the sofa in my house and I think it's in that June 1977 issue of Playgirl advisor. So I have that I'll send it to you will not recognize me whatsoever. 981 02:26:58.470 --> 02:27:06.960 It's probably the best I ever looked wonderful forehead dark, dark hair nice back beer and skinny hairy chest 982 02:27:09.480 --> 02:27:11.220 When I first saw you. It was that 983 02:27:12.450 --> 02:27:18.360 We didn't, we didn't meet her are talking all but I first saw you at gender Odyssey, which was not yet called gender Odyssey. 984 02:27:18.540 --> 02:27:21.870 Yeah. In 2005 yeah 985 02:27:22.530 --> 02:27:27.510 And I don't think I don't think the beard gone quite quite some quite yet. I think you're still had some good 986 02:27:27.600 --> 02:27:33.840 Will say I have a little bit of black yeah my hair started to leave my head about 987 02:27:35.460 --> 02:27:44.010 By 1977 I was getting really been back here and then it started thinning here. And then finally met the middle and now it's just moving down the sides. 988 02:27:44.610 --> 02:27:55.170 Really gone there's hardly anything there. My hair turn pepper and salt. And then it turned gray pepper and salt. And now it's white and gray because there's hardly a black hair. 989 02:27:56.850 --> 02:27:57.090 Well, 990 02:27:57.120 --> 02:28:08.340 I've got two questions that I would like to make sure that we cover and get to today that that kind of bring us to a nice clothes, I think, um, so the first one I want to make sure it run by you is 991 02:28:09.270 --> 02:28:17.820 Is it's how do you see trans rights and trans activism changing into the future either idealistically or hopefully or how do you see that 992 02:28:18.120 --> 02:28:21.930 I'll say well idealistically, I would like to see less 993 02:28:23.160 --> 02:28:23.730 Negative 994 02:28:26.100 --> 02:28:28.980 Presentation that usually don't get 995 02:28:31.200 --> 02:28:33.270 needs met. Right. 996 02:28:33.420 --> 02:28:39.510 And I do, I would like that to see that that people learn to be to negotiate. 997 02:28:40.530 --> 02:28:41.100 Despite 998 02:28:42.960 --> 02:28:58.800 I know we all have strong feelings. I'd like to see better negotiation skills. I want to see everybody at the table I proceed one inclusiveness and diversity to the utmost to the nth degree to light goes off the edge, frankly, and I have, by the way, this is an inside 999 02:28:59.880 --> 02:29:10.380 Some of the people like that and to agree to write stories for me in my it when it, when a stray little bit. I've got at least one unit. Who's going to write their story about 1000 02:29:11.580 --> 02:29:15.450 gender issues at night, I have 1001 02:29:16.500 --> 02:29:18.540 A couple intersex people for sure. 1002 02:29:20.250 --> 02:29:32.460 I have. I'm trying to get a woman who's there's a group of women who have breast surgery after for cancer purposes, who choose not to get breast replaced 1003 02:29:33.150 --> 02:29:43.320 CALL THEMSELVES flat toppers yeah we can get somebody there anyway, stuff like that, which I'll probably be digging for by somebody wanted to 1004 02:29:45.300 --> 02:29:49.740 But I'm doing it anyway. So, but I would like to see that through out 1005 02:29:51.480 --> 02:29:55.590 Period more diversity more inclusive it less the 1006 02:29:56.700 --> 02:30:04.260 Less of a reason for people to feel left out to like got a voice and that goes for young and old people. 1007 02:30:05.370 --> 02:30:08.550 The way of doing it is I said would be more like 1008 02:30:09.630 --> 02:30:23.880 More positive stuff, you know, not blaming somebody else for your misfortune. I went back in my once I got my DNA my ancestry com shit I found out one of my ancestors ancestors as a slave owner 1009 02:30:26.070 --> 02:30:32.100 I would never honestly I don't believe in it that I'm not responsible for what that person did hopefully I've learned from that. 1010 02:30:32.520 --> 02:30:41.550 But to hold me responsible for killing Native Americans are black people or this or that or the other. I've never had the same attitudes, but I can't reassure people 1011 02:30:42.120 --> 02:30:58.110 Because it's been so much done by other people. How do I erased that that would be my idea. How can we erase and losing. Can't we all just be and can we all just care for each other's if you're a piece of gold, I would understand to this day. 1012 02:30:59.670 --> 02:31:08.490 My mom was an angel. My mom made me feel so loved and so precious and so good and so fine. 1013 02:31:09.540 --> 02:31:15.060 And so much. Have a great human being that I can't understand why other people don't think the second thing. 1014 02:31:16.830 --> 02:31:20.220 I mean the utmost of unconditional love. 1015 02:31:21.360 --> 02:31:38.070 My partner doesn't have that she's close my wife never had it at all there was. Boy, if I didn't do whatever she wouldn't speak to me for three days. I mean, life was like can be difficult. Yeah, well, what if I could wave a magic wand. 1016 02:31:40.710 --> 02:31:42.150 Then that's what I hope for. 1017 02:31:43.080 --> 02:31:52.050 What I think will happen. And I'm sorry to say, is this backlash will continue much longer than it needs to, and it's already done so much damage here there and everywhere. 1018 02:31:52.500 --> 02:32:05.910 But I do think will survive. And I really think will climb on the pilot ashes are dead bodies or whatever you want to say. And we'll go. We'll go a better one. With that, eventually, at least that's my hope. And I said, good luck if it comes to 1019 02:32:07.890 --> 02:32:18.180 Go guarding my little piece of heaven, my little piece of territory or whatever. I think it should be that I've achieved for myself and my loved ones and hopefully help other people achieve somewhere during my lifetime. 1020 02:32:18.810 --> 02:32:24.210 That it will be there. I asked people in my little study, what do you want to be remembered for 1021 02:32:25.260 --> 02:32:28.980 You know what legacy. What is it that you your life. 1022 02:32:30.390 --> 02:32:34.620 What do you see the meaning or what you've done, or however you then. 1023 02:32:34.890 --> 02:32:38.490 You're reading my mind that's really my last question I want to make sure to run by you. So I'm not 1024 02:32:39.210 --> 02:32:40.680 Exactly the turn right back on. Yeah. 1025 02:32:41.010 --> 02:32:43.620 So, what, what is that legacy that you want to be remembered for 1026 02:32:44.910 --> 02:32:45.960 Well, I think mostly just 1027 02:32:47.490 --> 02:33:00.870 kindness, compassion is the key word for me at least, I think I've been capacity. I haven't had to work at it. And I think that's because my mom was the kind of person. She was everyone to her. 1028 02:33:02.340 --> 02:33:07.050 Was family and she evidence that and everything she did in her life. 1029 02:33:08.340 --> 02:33:29.190 I have almost to a fault, then that way sometimes my own emotional or financial cost is you can well imagine if you're sometimes you help people who will take advantage of that time or the energy or that actual money sometimes who overstay their work, or who 1030 02:33:30.780 --> 02:33:34.140 Simply may be a pest in some ways, but 1031 02:33:35.430 --> 02:33:35.760 But 1032 02:33:36.780 --> 02:33:39.990 You know, so you set up what I was in instill them. 1033 02:33:41.760 --> 02:33:46.230 Discuss with several different people. Hard to set limits with other people. 1034 02:33:47.550 --> 02:33:57.300 Until I had my license as a therapist, which made me have limits right clients I was an easy 1035 02:33:59.310 --> 02:34:15.840 Mark Right, right. Oh, you mean I remember somebody called me from somewhere. They got my number from somewhere. They're driven to California from Arizona and they'd run out of money and they need gas for their car and they were hungry. 1036 02:34:17.430 --> 02:34:32.250 So I drove 25 miles. The two sacks groceries stopped just before I found them and got six meals from a drive to replace gate and $40 for gas and then I found out that they were going to use the money for cigarettes. 1037 02:34:37.050 --> 02:34:44.970 And I, and they were full pack a day each smokers probably spend $40 a day or more and cigarettes. 1038 02:34:46.860 --> 02:34:51.090 Not done that would have plenty of money you get back home and I have. Well, what 1039 02:34:54.300 --> 02:35:01.410 My wife used to say we'd be downtown and somebody be honest trade panhandling and as I say she had had always reaching a person comes 1040 02:35:03.120 --> 02:35:05.400 To caraway to do that. She says, well, 1041 02:35:06.570 --> 02:35:11.820 She says they said they were hungry, and I don't you know they're just going to stand for cigarettes or drugs or alcohol. 1042 02:35:12.840 --> 02:35:17.580 She says, I'm getting the money with my heart what they do with it. That's their choice. 1043 02:35:19.350 --> 02:35:33.180 I couldn't even be as good as my wife because I still think to this day. If you tell me you're hungry. I'll go and I offer you food and you say, No, I want money you're getting neither one because I know what you're going to do with that money not 1044 02:35:34.290 --> 02:35:36.030 Really to add to your addiction. 1045 02:35:38.070 --> 02:35:55.440 But my mom and Carol are deaf those kinds of people. I give my heart right when I give them chips uncle used to say the same. You know, we say the same thing to his wife and she say don't you are going to do with it. He says all let him die happy. 1046 02:35:57.990 --> 02:36:00.180 When user for alcohol or drugs, let him die happy. 1047 02:36:02.040 --> 02:36:10.590 So I don't know the further answer to that. I would like to be thing that I'm a compassionate person and I haven't had to work real hard at it. So there is no 1048 02:36:11.610 --> 02:36:13.380 The other part is what 1049 02:36:15.180 --> 02:36:15.810 In the end, 1050 02:36:16.890 --> 02:36:19.230 I guess, is there anything that I'm 1051 02:36:21.780 --> 02:36:29.940 Especially happy about that. I that I didn't do. And the one thing, again, not one thing, but many things in terms of 1052 02:36:31.080 --> 02:36:32.490 Being able to do more. 1053 02:36:34.140 --> 02:36:45.180 Is being able to do more. I'd like to be that person who had, you know, we sit up my daughter and I used to sit around dream about oh if I won the lottery. This is what I do. I say, 1054 02:36:45.540 --> 02:36:47.820 First of all, I'll take care of my own family make me 1055 02:36:47.970 --> 02:36:53.130 Share my children financial education and decent home to live in. But what was left over. 1056 02:36:54.240 --> 02:36:57.060 Would go to definitely my interest which is 1057 02:36:58.320 --> 02:36:58.680 You know, 1058 02:37:00.270 --> 02:37:05.460 Food Insecurity animal welfare save the earth. These kinds of things. 1059 02:37:07.410 --> 02:37:20.010 For supporting other causes. I don't. I wouldn't never need all of that. I don't need 50 shirts. You know, like these stars have by $2,000 pair of shoes and by six pairs of them because they don't have or one of every color. 1060 02:37:20.400 --> 02:37:30.270 And what I don't even care if I have a new car anymore. But part of that comes with aging and being more experienced in life and what is important. So for me. 1061 02:37:30.750 --> 02:37:43.620 At this time in my life. Looking back, and now it's the relationships that I've made with people that are very important. And let me tell you last very last thing that has nothing to do with legacy, but 1062 02:37:44.790 --> 02:37:47.220 I will run that table joke. 1063 02:37:48.570 --> 02:37:51.300 Is an address book I bought in 1988 1064 02:37:54.150 --> 02:37:58.290 And there's no more space left and then I found out the other day to put in a new name. 1065 02:37:59.760 --> 02:38:07.860 There have been made, I didn't. Fortunately, unfortunately didn't write it and cancel. So there are many, many Mark outs and restructuring of addresses and phone numbers over the years. 1066 02:38:08.640 --> 02:38:19.050 But the thing that stands out most is that so many are deceased and I've written the date of death or something by their name. 1067 02:38:20.670 --> 02:38:30.750 And I think even my first that first girlfriend. I told you about the under age one she died when she was 35 ovarian cancer. 1068 02:38:33.060 --> 02:38:36.540 Gene, the love of my life, so to speak, is dead. 1069 02:38:39.030 --> 02:38:41.640 My wife is dead. My mother's dead. 1070 02:38:43.320 --> 02:38:47.970 So many other relatives and friends all of Carol's aunts and uncles are gone. 1071 02:38:48.990 --> 02:38:56.850 All my aunts and uncles are gone all the grandparents, and so it's with great joy that I see that I still have 1072 02:38:59.130 --> 02:39:08.460 50 there. So Christmas cars, people who are still alive that I feel close enough to to actually still send Christmas cards they mean 1073 02:39:09.630 --> 02:39:24.600 And it's the losses that seem more prominent right now than any gains. I will ever have. And the one thing I did realize and part of the reason I started writing and sharing information at this point in my life is that 1074 02:39:25.830 --> 02:39:31.950 As long as your name is remembered by somebody, they'll still be alive. Somebody told me that once 1075 02:39:33.210 --> 02:39:39.150 And so a generation later. For instance, I have only two little trinkets that my mom had 1076 02:39:41.070 --> 02:39:41.640 Well, she was 1077 02:39:45.900 --> 02:39:46.620 I have 1078 02:39:47.970 --> 02:39:51.810 Nothing of jeans I had nothing that anybody else's 1079 02:39:53.490 --> 02:39:54.390 I had memories. 1080 02:39:55.680 --> 02:40:09.390 So one of the things that my goal is, is to once I'm through with whatever it is projects I'm working on now is actually to write their stories to not just a little entry in my life, or when I'm going to do my supposed to my home. 1081 02:40:10.590 --> 02:40:17.490 Markets out but that I write about Carol's life as much as I interview the people that are still left 1082 02:40:18.570 --> 02:40:21.510 Right about my mom's life. My dad's life as much as like 1083 02:40:22.620 --> 02:40:40.260 And those things as well, because nobody else is going to do that when I die. Some of those memories will be gone. My kids don't even know the memories about your mother that we shared a lot of them right you know and and and what's important about that. Well, I really don't know. 1084 02:40:41.520 --> 02:40:41.790 We 1085 02:40:43.110 --> 02:40:47.580 Did you you start wondering at some point in your life. Did you did you leave a footprint. 1086 02:40:49.680 --> 02:40:50.880 And 1087 02:40:54.660 --> 02:40:55.770 If you did, does it matter. 1088 02:40:57.660 --> 02:41:01.410 I you know I don't know I, those are philosophical existential 1089 02:41:02.520 --> 02:41:14.100 Questions, I suppose. But as long as I'm alive. I'm going to keep doing the work that I'm doing. And for the same reasons I one thing I can say I've never given up my dignity. 1090 02:41:15.150 --> 02:41:18.600 And I hope I never I'm in a place where I feel that I have to 1091 02:41:20.310 --> 02:41:28.830 It's not sometimes, it hasn't been an easy decision to maintain that I've never sold out, if you will, I think, and I've always been me. 1092 02:41:29.970 --> 02:41:43.170 Always know who you think i and i remember even though the day seeing a reference to pose writing a story that will go in this elders book. I have a friend of mine, Teri Jo. 1093 02:41:44.670 --> 02:41:57.750 And in the reason I wrote her stories because I was very close to her, but winner curves sister in law, her sister disowned her after she told her at a 74 that she was going through 16, sir. 1094 02:41:59.520 --> 02:42:02.430 I knew Teri Jo 15 more years till she passed away. 1095 02:42:03.930 --> 02:42:04.320 13 1096 02:42:05.580 --> 02:42:06.480 At her funeral. 1097 02:42:09.840 --> 02:42:11.190 Or memorial service. 1098 02:42:12.210 --> 02:42:19.590 The month they sister was there and sister. Oh, I didn't know I was trans myself. She thought I was Terry Joe's therapists. Okay. 1099 02:42:20.160 --> 02:42:26.730 And so she listened to all of Terry Jones friends and it was a mix of people, people who knew her own these Teri Jo. 1100 02:42:27.270 --> 02:42:38.430 People who are only as Thomas and people who knew her both ways. They all had wonderful things to say about her because she was wonderful person and her sister said, and like this, he said. 1101 02:42:39.450 --> 02:42:42.300 Well, after listening to you people 1102 02:42:44.880 --> 02:42:47.940 I began to realize maybe I made a mistake. 1103 02:42:49.590 --> 02:42:54.660 And I was so angry. And I thought, and there it is. You people 1104 02:42:57.240 --> 02:43:04.350 For people using not a pronoun, but I don't even know what my remember all the rules with English with your call anymore. 1105 02:43:05.640 --> 02:43:13.860 It's like using he, she or it right. Yeah, or that is an inanimate object or nothing, and on human 1106 02:43:15.960 --> 02:43:33.540 And it and it's those kinds of ratios that matter to me. Yeah. So when people are so insistent on the correct pronouns and someone's not using it. That's what it is. That becomes in a ratio of identity upsell yeah and people should fully understand that sometimes don't 1107 02:43:34.620 --> 02:43:47.490 And I can manage more with relatives that the fight, my brothers mother in law, Ruth just love me to death, she did. She did. And yet she could never get used to saying she or he 1108 02:43:48.930 --> 02:44:00.450 And she often would call me Judy instead of June, we saw each other, but what you guys, said Ruth, do you know that you're going to get in trouble for doing that someday. They're going to wonder, What's this crazy woman. Calling this guy she 1109 02:44:01.860 --> 02:44:02.400 Later. 1110 02:44:03.060 --> 02:44:07.830 But it didn't help her. She wasn't being mean about it. She just said no me for so many years. 1111 02:44:08.340 --> 02:44:21.870 With the other stuff that she. It was all she could do to make herself. She not make herself to remember the correct pronunciation but pick some truth to all this, I don't know how I one thing I know 1112 02:44:24.570 --> 02:44:30.900 I want to say that though I use my brain a lot. What's the most important to me is what comes from my heart. 1113 02:44:32.580 --> 02:44:35.580 This, this, whatever. 1114 02:44:39.840 --> 02:44:50.820 And in that way, I want to believe the final word I want to believe in reincarnation I there is more work to do in this life. There's so much work to do is config several lives. 1115 02:44:51.540 --> 02:45:00.600 And I want to be able to have those other lies with the knowledge I have now, for instance, Chuck. And I say to each other. What would our life be locked out as a couple that we had met each other when you're 16 1116 02:45:02.880 --> 02:45:08.790 We wouldn't have been ready for each other, I suppose, then, you know, the lives we had been back in those days. 1117 02:45:11.550 --> 02:45:11.820 Right. 1118 02:45:13.260 --> 02:45:13.770 Yeah. 1119 02:45:14.910 --> 02:45:22.260 But what would it have been like, and you can ask all those questions all the time. The difference in timing. 1120 02:45:23.430 --> 02:45:36.000 I, I, I would wish a whole lot of things I wish I could push back i would i said today, we were talking cousin, we're both chubby who were standing up there giving each other a hug. And she says, 1121 02:45:37.020 --> 02:45:39.210 She says that about back to fat people 1122 02:45:40.740 --> 02:45:42.810 Yeah, I had said that 1123 02:45:45.930 --> 02:45:52.020 I am not overweight. I'm under tall. If I were six inches taller i would i would be 1124 02:45:53.910 --> 02:45:57.990 So I said, I've adopted that is my standard bearer for being back 1125 02:46:00.360 --> 02:46:00.600 On your 1126 02:46:02.280 --> 02:46:03.480 Round is a shape right 1127 02:46:03.930 --> 02:46:08.070 Yeah that's right round is to shake in our house, even our little dog is round. 1128 02:46:08.790 --> 02:46:21.630 And then I didn't go into all that. But it is true that animals are my second club in terms of where my heart goes to and our little dog like many people who love animals runs the household. 1129 02:46:22.290 --> 02:46:27.990 She's unusually quiet right now. Usually if I'm talking to somebody on the phone or here on Skype or zoom 1130 02:46:29.190 --> 02:46:32.130 She'll be what we call putti she does a little 1131 02:46:34.470 --> 02:46:34.830 Right. 1132 02:46:35.220 --> 02:46:40.380 In your kitchen right but she's been unusually quiet and napping while mom has gone 1133 02:46:41.970 --> 02:46:43.740 Yeah, that'll change. So she got some 1134 02:46:44.220 --> 02:47:01.710 Yeah, well, we, I know you don't have much, but I'll go over some of the questions we didn't get to, I will also seek something that I have a perhaps a summary of I kept things. I don't think I was quite as driven as new sovan with I certainly never did journals like 1135 02:47:03.330 --> 02:47:14.520 But I have I have kept shit for years that probably nobody else would keep and I've got a collection. I remember when it was I was going to go ahead to have some thing. 1136 02:47:15.210 --> 02:47:33.000 Letter to phase two times ahead have at Stanford University. They asked everybody in the V anybody kuna program to get to have people in their life, write letters of support for them going into the program for the treatment. Right. Well, not to be outdone, I think I have 25 or so letters. 1137 02:47:36.270 --> 02:47:36.570 Then 1138 02:47:37.500 --> 02:47:39.450 On to know a little bit in the last couple of hours. Yeah. 1139 02:47:41.490 --> 02:47:42.180 So then 1140 02:47:43.050 --> 02:47:57.120 Years later, when I was going into a master's program and marriage and family counseling school is kind of something similar on only on a more professional level from people that worked with La, la, la, not a letter reference, but just the letter of support. 1141 02:47:58.200 --> 02:48:01.410 Wow, you know I spoken to over 200 classes and least 1142 02:48:02.430 --> 02:48:03.450 Having probably 1143 02:48:04.530 --> 02:48:11.040 60 or 70 letters from different from asked everybody I've ever spoken to, or help to do a class with or 1144 02:48:11.460 --> 02:48:23.700 Or our creative class or a film or anything else. And I said, well, I need this. This is what I need you know it. Would you mind writing letter for me. Well, I've got all those metrics and I walk on water. 1145 02:48:27.030 --> 02:48:31.320 But they knew I was going to see the letters they send them to me not directly to whoever it is, yeah. 1146 02:48:33.270 --> 02:48:44.010 They did say nice things I did get some letters from people about the program like my best friend high school who looked like a little darker South but wasn't is married straight like Costa 1147 02:48:46.830 --> 02:48:47.250 Hello. 1148 02:48:49.590 --> 02:48:54.060 dovetail haircut or gene and shirts, mostly like I didn't we were close friends. 1149 02:48:55.980 --> 02:49:03.630 Her response to Stanford. Well, well, I know God isn't a homosexual. I know that for sure and something else that was off. 1150 02:49:06.510 --> 02:49:17.430 And my aunt. My mother's sister wrote one and said, Well, I believe that Jesus probably messed up because he was, she was adopted and she was a skinny little right when my sister brought her home and 1151 02:49:18.300 --> 02:49:24.600 Look like she was starving to death. And this net and then maybe maybe that's what influenced her to feel the way she does. 1152 02:49:26.040 --> 02:49:36.090 But that's telling stories other people's versions and their history of things I would never remember and everything myself. 1153 02:49:36.660 --> 02:49:46.080 Yeah, so I know included those that are I didn't hold them back, send them all to Stanford. I think also the challenging ones are that are the ones that didn't 1154 02:49:47.430 --> 02:49:49.530 Appear particularly supportive. That's a time 1155 02:49:50.670 --> 02:49:52.470 That's, I think, in the end, that's 1156 02:49:53.850 --> 02:49:58.740 That's another massive we can't always with Moses Abraham Lincoln be 1157 02:49:59.940 --> 02:50:03.330 Right part of the time and you can't be this. 1158 02:50:05.430 --> 02:50:06.090 You can 1159 02:50:08.400 --> 02:50:09.120 I don't know what is. 1160 02:50:10.200 --> 02:50:10.980 The time that you can 1161 02:50:11.400 --> 02:50:12.000 See some of the 1162 02:50:13.530 --> 02:50:16.500 Time you can do all the people all the time. 1163 02:50:16.650 --> 02:50:27.120 Yeah, and and you can't do that as a human being either giving of your faults are giving of your mistakes that you didn't really want to make. I want to be an 1164 02:50:28.320 --> 02:50:37.710 Asshole. But some people think I am. I don't want to be thought of it in a negative way, but some people do, and I don't know what I did wrong and they will tell me 1165 02:50:39.300 --> 02:50:49.380 Probably this stuff and say not nasty things to me and about and I think. What did I ever do to deserve. But then that comes back from my mother's 1166 02:50:51.780 --> 02:51:08.040 I used to tell classes. Get, get this, if I were a mass murder at the end. I was standing in that tower with my automatic gun and shot down 30 people. My mother would be would believe there was a reason that should be done. That's how 1167 02:51:09.840 --> 02:51:11.430 Much she is protected. 1168 02:51:12.450 --> 02:51:19.560 It's Jude did that needed to be done, and he did there was the study they did for him to do anything like that. 1169 02:51:20.400 --> 02:51:30.780 Well that's, that's something that's really struck me about your about, you know, the all the stories he told me there's the there's a thread that I feel runs all the way through that and that's the the love of your mother. 1170 02:51:31.080 --> 02:51:50.790 This gave you this ability to unconditionally love yourself and and be able to withstand with with what I see you know my compliment is with great resilience to understand the oppression that you have seen and faced and been subject to your whole life. 1171 02:51:51.660 --> 02:51:58.320 So I see that I see that credit that unconditional love and how it's completely shaped everything that you've been able to do 1172 02:51:58.620 --> 02:52:09.120 Oh, I agree with you. Absolutely. And the people who know my mom like Chuck me, my mom. She's still alive. My friends would call her friends from the south Southern states would call her Miss Lillian 1173 02:52:10.080 --> 02:52:20.760 And and it was. She's a kind of mom and my friends. I've got some friends left to live that I grew up down the street from and when I interviewed her for my biography thing. 1174 02:52:21.990 --> 02:52:22.680 She says, 1175 02:52:24.060 --> 02:52:35.880 I can remember your mom's hamburgers why she made the best HAMP we always love it when she invited me to her house and fetus and your mom was just the greatest at Chuck too. And my mom was 1176 02:52:37.500 --> 02:52:42.000 When I finally told her about what I was about to do, and then 1177 02:52:43.230 --> 02:52:46.380 When I was going for the initial surgical stuff. 1178 02:52:47.940 --> 02:52:54.330 And she learned about the people that met some of my friends. So, in those days, and still now. 1179 02:52:55.350 --> 02:52:58.350 The people whose moms and dads won't let them come in. 1180 02:52:59.460 --> 02:53:06.300 That people have been thrown out of their houses, who have no friends to support them on on. We're at our house. 1181 02:53:08.130 --> 02:53:18.690 Or we would have our traditional family type holiday dinners and everyone was welcomed with 25 or 30 people there and when they went and everybody laughed. 1182 02:53:20.640 --> 02:53:26.160 And and when they wouldn't be and she would we had time to talk, she'd be crying. And she said, I don't understand. 1183 02:53:27.450 --> 02:53:36.570 Your people your friends are such lovely people enjoy them so much. I can't understand why their family did this to them. 1184 02:53:38.130 --> 02:53:55.230 And that's just the way she was. She, her heart was open to everyone. I could never be as I have striven all my life to be the person that my mother was. And the example that she gave to me and I have failed and the end. I think I failed. I've done as much as I could. 1185 02:53:56.370 --> 02:54:00.810 And still keep on trying. But I will go to my grave, knowing that 1186 02:54:02.010 --> 02:54:06.660 The example she gave I wasn't quite to meet and 1187 02:54:09.900 --> 02:54:10.500 You know I 1188 02:54:11.820 --> 02:54:14.160 Her own mother was bitter and depressed. 1189 02:54:16.890 --> 02:54:17.550 Poor 1190 02:54:19.290 --> 02:54:21.870 At a third grade education. I think 1191 02:54:24.240 --> 02:54:34.170 And she grew up poor my mom quit school in 10th grade because they had, they were supporting me close that he felt comfortable wearing to school. 1192 02:54:34.980 --> 02:54:44.820 My dad was raised in an orphanage tool is 14 and then adopted by a family to put them in, put them to work on their farm is a farmhand so he had this poor existence. 1193 02:54:45.390 --> 02:55:00.330 So I had two parents who had shared in their childhood some awful repressing cold press in and just add a tour and then when they met in their 20s 1930s. I've just started 1194 02:55:01.710 --> 02:55:14.460 Prohibition era not prohibition, but just after the prohibition, so everything was loose as a goose. So they had a grand time for 10 years didn't ever have any children and then adopted me and then they just turn your whole life around 1195 02:55:15.600 --> 02:55:17.610 From being party party. 1196 02:55:18.990 --> 02:55:23.400 And they had my brother, and then they just turned into the most ideal parents 1197 02:55:24.000 --> 02:55:25.050 And we were poor. 1198 02:55:28.260 --> 02:55:48.060 I heard some Christmases we got gifts that were used toys. We report and my dad was sick a lot and died when I was 20 and he had his first heart attack. When I was 14 and sick every year after that he had three heart attacks a year at least kept on living my mom was depressed. 1199 02:55:49.980 --> 02:55:51.690 Very she became psychotic 1200 02:55:53.970 --> 02:55:58.020 From her depression was about 16 that lasted for a while. 1201 02:55:59.250 --> 02:56:04.950 She was more depressed after he died. She was a middle school. We have it's 25 per year. 1202 02:56:07.200 --> 02:56:15.210 And it's all those things, then shaped again my existence and then one last thing that you're going to find, I hope, funny. 1203 02:56:16.140 --> 02:56:24.240 When I finally found out there for me. I did finally get to meet my birth family. My mother was still alive. I met her when she was 93 and I was 69 1204 02:56:25.140 --> 02:56:42.390 I met a half sister to have sisters had proceeded in depth that I never got to me, my half sister put together this whole takes maybe 50 or 60 people and had a almost like a family reunion in a hotel to introduce this bastard child to the family. 1205 02:56:43.650 --> 02:56:46.560 Okay, and they all welcome me with open arms. 1206 02:56:47.580 --> 02:56:48.150 And 1207 02:56:51.900 --> 02:56:56.280 And my sister told me that my mother had been a nurse and that she had worked 1208 02:56:57.390 --> 02:56:59.280 For 30 years in a psychiatric unit. 1209 02:56:59.730 --> 02:57:02.640 Oh wow, as a nurse in a Catholic Costco. 1210 02:57:03.810 --> 02:57:06.990 And it was the same hospital with the story came about. 1211 02:57:10.320 --> 02:57:11.160 Is that movie. 1212 02:57:12.480 --> 02:57:14.100 A movie was based on the 1213 02:57:16.920 --> 02:57:17.730 Jack Nicholson. 1214 02:57:18.660 --> 02:57:23.340 No, no, no, it's not his movie as the other one was around earlier on it, we 1215 02:57:24.900 --> 02:57:27.480 Actually can't think of what it was. Oh. The Exorcist. 1216 02:57:27.810 --> 02:57:36.900 Okay, only the real person was a little boy and not a girl, but the whole story about that and the exorcisms that took place it taking place at that hospital. 1217 02:57:37.470 --> 02:57:45.840 So that's why that's my mother's family's claim to fame mother worked at the hospital, years later after while she was there, but it didn't happen. 1218 02:57:47.160 --> 02:57:52.680 So, so I thought, well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 1219 02:57:52.890 --> 02:58:01.500 Exactly. No. And so we don't I again don't know the end. I never knew that. I knew she'd been a nurse, but I didn't know she looked at that guy. 1220 02:58:02.430 --> 02:58:11.160 And I'd never known that and never pushed a decision did my mother's mental illness and my grandmother's depressed and have what influence 1221 02:58:11.580 --> 02:58:25.020 My grandmother's mother, the soul of the story goes with also depressed and her method of dealing with her depression. When they didn't have hospitals and they didn't have medicines was a woman would take to her bed. 1222 02:58:25.830 --> 02:58:38.100 Right. Okay. Not to be outdone, and not to be unproductive she would take a clutch of eggs in a basket and put them under the covers with her to hatch the eggs from the warm body. 1223 02:58:42.840 --> 02:58:54.120 Well, I might as well be used for something, you know, so he waved in again you weave in the generations of what has been going on jack and I were talking with her. 1224 02:58:54.570 --> 02:59:03.750 Our grandparents were small children and born in the late 1800s. There were no cars telephones. There were no 1225 02:59:04.740 --> 02:59:13.410 Cities, the way we know them now 50% of people more live on farms there. We certainly didn't have cell phones and the internet and this and that. 1226 02:59:13.740 --> 02:59:22.800 And yet most of our younger generation that are going to these conferences have never lived without them. Absolutely. And as I went to a one room schoolhouse. 1227 02:59:23.790 --> 02:59:29.070 For parts of two different years. We didn't have a bathroom. We had an outdoor outhouse, and really 1228 02:59:29.640 --> 02:59:38.100 Well with the pump where you had a Dipper hating on a string hanging from it. So you could feel the dipper and everybody drink out of the same different winning. Nobody got sick. Nobody died. 1229 02:59:38.730 --> 02:59:46.080 If you wanted to use the outhouse. You were in the classroom. Anyways, one finger. If you had to pee in two fingers if you had to be 1230 02:59:48.930 --> 02:59:53.040 So everybody knew what you were doing with the teacher when you are going to be gone. 1231 02:59:54.030 --> 03:00:03.090 You're gone. Exactly. I know, but that was first grade, third grade first grade, I was writing cursive when they were still teaching how to print. I could spell. 1232 03:00:03.720 --> 03:00:08.970 Most words that third and fourth graders couldn't because we had all these one through 12 in the same room. 1233 03:00:09.780 --> 03:00:17.280 With one teacher. Wow. Well, the other older kids and work with younger kids too. And so I got to the I was pretty smart. Anyway, but 1234 03:00:17.790 --> 03:00:28.980 I use that it just put me everything was about learning and these influences to and I see kids today say like my own green kits. I sit here. I wanted to take 1235 03:00:29.460 --> 03:00:42.780 I know you're working and I know you have a child at home. I am time but can't you just take one evening a week and go to a class. Well, now you don't even have to do that. Can't you just go online and take some classes. 1236 03:00:44.220 --> 03:00:48.150 Well, I don't wanna I too tired. I think 1237 03:00:53.070 --> 03:00:56.070 This year, by the way, I finished. 1238 03:00:57.090 --> 03:01:01.770 A certificate course in gerontology the certificate course in geriatrics 1239 03:01:03.630 --> 03:01:07.170 To certificate courses in animal hospice and 1240 03:01:08.400 --> 03:01:17.550 Palliative Care for animals to certificate courses for the same thing for human beings, another certificate course for grief and loss with pets and another 1241 03:01:18.960 --> 03:01:30.060 animal companion is called all online at all through through reputable university courses that you can do online their college level courses. 1242 03:01:30.480 --> 03:01:34.140 Wow. And I've finished my course with 1243 03:01:36.960 --> 03:01:50.610 Seroquel some others to that have nothing to do with anything else but just me and a lot about some animal care to I'm not working in animal that is now, but it just means a lot to me again. So 1244 03:01:51.450 --> 03:01:51.840 Really 1245 03:01:52.140 --> 03:01:57.810 The only thing I was gonna say to you in terms of like looking at the the threads that I feel like we've been weaving in this in this conversation is 1246 03:01:57.990 --> 03:02:07.290 There's, there's two other words that I think just really defined so much of what we've talked about and and that's both the word compassion that I think has been so 1247 03:02:08.340 --> 03:02:11.220 You know, just any leaving your mother's example that's really 1248 03:02:11.280 --> 03:02:13.050 led into so much of the work you've done 1249 03:02:13.050 --> 03:02:17.130 That network compassion and then also the word learning and 1250 03:02:17.160 --> 03:02:24.660 Knowledge. I feel like that's something very unique to to to he was a person that you're you're very eloquently 1251 03:02:24.930 --> 03:02:27.630 imparted to me today is that the importance of 1252 03:02:27.660 --> 03:02:33.030 constantly learning and and seeing knowledge as a as a fuel for life. 1253 03:02:33.300 --> 03:02:35.790 Yeah, thank you. That's very well put very 1254 03:02:37.110 --> 03:02:42.690 Summarizes and I and I thank him okie for that. I'm glad I could communicate 1255 03:02:43.770 --> 03:02:49.380 Years ago I went to a conference and I had with a my wife and other relatives in my way. 1256 03:02:50.580 --> 03:03:04.110 Not a kind of the conferences about animal this therapist and one of the gals came home with this book about translating, it's almost like tarot cards that he used him to identify your totem animals, the ones that 1257 03:03:04.830 --> 03:03:14.280 Are spirit animals. And one of the ones. There are several that this all has meaning, I can write those to you because I think it's funny buddy and poignant 1258 03:03:16.230 --> 03:03:33.660 Because they all the cards I turned up for my companion animals are things I strived to be have accomplished or wants to want to be and they all and one of the ones that made me cry was antelope. 1259 03:03:35.400 --> 03:03:40.020 And Angela says take my hide to keep warm 1260 03:03:41.430 --> 03:03:44.790 I'm you eat my meat to sustain life. 1261 03:03:46.050 --> 03:03:51.180 And it's about this self sacrificial sort of ideation about 1262 03:03:53.280 --> 03:03:58.110 Not only wanting to make a difference, but be willing to give that much, including self. 1263 03:03:59.400 --> 03:04:02.550 And even your own life to accomplish. 1264 03:04:04.860 --> 03:04:08.250 I guess better a better world for other people. 1265 03:04:09.510 --> 03:04:22.380 And I've never been to a war that would tell you right now, if I were born male, and there was a draft where I had to go, I would be a conscientious objector I'm right. I would agree to be a medic that what that's it. 1266 03:04:25.440 --> 03:04:33.270 Well, thank you so much. Dude, I've really just appreciate this conversation and immensely. If you're somebody that i've you know known around the community for 1267 03:04:34.290 --> 03:04:37.620 The second I understood what trans was I knew who to patent was so 1268 03:04:38.100 --> 03:04:50.640 I've been looking forward to this conversation. AND YOU DIDN'T DISAPPOINT ME THE LEAST I am very, I feel very motivated for the rest of the project now and very excited to just start to add little bits of the stories that you've told me to what other people tell me so 1269 03:04:50.910 --> 03:05:01.470 Thank you so much as I'm most most appreciated by me and I am sure that the there will be multiple generations that will be listening to your stories from the archives for a long time. 1270 03:05:02.790 --> 03:05:06.000 Well, thank you. I still made when they added a couple of those things. I shouldn't have said. 1271 03:05:06.600 --> 03:05:16.140 Absolutely. That's, that's part of the process, not a problem at all. I'll send you a copy of it and and you can let me know just which whatever pieces you don't like we'll just yank them out. 1272 03:05:16.410 --> 03:05:17.850 Well, I shouldn't say as 1273 03:05:19.620 --> 03:05:26.490 Sometimes I say things and I realized that I just don't want to flap one so they can bad mouth me initially 1274 03:05:29.790 --> 03:05:33.120 Enjoy the rest of your day. Have a happy holiday and 1275 03:05:34.410 --> 03:05:36.900 I hope we have a good 2020 and beyond. 1276 03:05:38.040 --> 03:05:41.370 Thank you. I'll send you the consent form by words so you can easily add it 1277 03:05:41.850 --> 03:05:46.830 Okay, thanks. I'll get it right back to the other is, you know, thank you for doing this project. It's 1278 03:05:47.820 --> 03:05:52.920 Needed to be done. I have some names. I can give to you, probably, I have to get permission first. 1279 03:05:53.430 --> 03:06:06.510 Even though most of them open out i are the other alternative would be to give your contact information. Tell them what you're doing and that you might be. I won't say Oh, definitely, you're going to use them, but but here's a project. 1280 03:06:06.720 --> 03:06:14.130 Yeah, you were more than welcome pass along my contact information and if there folks to give you a give you a thumbs up, then definitely send their, their emails. My way for sure. 1281 03:06:14.340 --> 03:06:15.300 We have a good dinner. 1282 03:06:16.710 --> 03:06:17.040 You too. 1283 03:06:17.160 --> 03:06:18.510 Bye bye. 1284 03:06:18.840 --> 03:06:20.280 Thanks, dude. Well, welcome.