WEBVTT kind: captions lang: en 1 00:02:38.370 --> 00:02:38.700 There. 2 00:02:46.320 --> 00:02:46.860 Perfect. 3 00:03:37.470 --> 00:03:38.250 Let's go. 4 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:36.330 Hi. 5 00:12:39.060 --> 00:12:40.890 Hope, maybe I don't have to send up 6 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:47.370 Okay, but in the recording on so nice to meet you as well. 7 00:12:48.450 --> 00:12:50.970 Thank you so much for agreeing to do to do an interview. 8 00:12:51.330 --> 00:12:52.410 No problem, and 9 00:12:53.040 --> 00:12:57.660 Rupert Rogers, the person who said we've got interview Diana. Diana, one of the one of the legends. 10 00:12:59.490 --> 00:13:00.450 He's to kind 11 00:13:01.680 --> 00:13:03.000 Of known him a long time. 12 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:05.760 Really, how long for the record. 13 00:13:06.780 --> 00:13:11.280 I think we probably met in 69 or 70 14 00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:12.630 Oh my goodness. 15 00:13:12.690 --> 00:13:13.110 Yeah. 16 00:13:13.290 --> 00:13:14.370 Long time ago. 17 00:13:15.150 --> 00:13:16.620 Wow. And so 18 00:13:17.640 --> 00:13:20.880 I don't want to get into it right away. So I want to ask you questions about about that. 19 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:38.400 But first of all, so for the record. And so they'll be folks listening to this in 1500 200 years or whatever. And so, for the record, and here we are today is Friday, February 14 I'm here in Vancouver. My name is Evan Taylor I'm interviewing Daniel Lamont, and Daniel, where are you today. 20 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:43.680 I'm in Polycom beach on Vancouver Island and British Columbia. Awesome. 21 00:13:44.430 --> 00:13:46.740 And. And how old are you today. 22 00:13:48.300 --> 00:13:52.380 I'm 69 I'll be 70 on March 24. Oh, cool. 23 00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:54.060 Happy birthday, very soon coming up. 24 00:13:54.390 --> 00:14:01.860 Thank you. And, and so what we'll do today. And we've talked a little bit over over email and whatever. But so what we're going to do. 25 00:14:02.310 --> 00:14:12.000 What I'm trying to do is get a history from folks that's around people's activism work and you know as we both know as trans folks. He got the whole, like, when did you know and you know what 26 00:14:12.030 --> 00:14:13.080 People think, you know, 27 00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:23.040 All that. But there's, you know, there's that narrative. But then there's also, I think, a whole narrative of work that's been done in the last 3040 years where folks have really done you know 28 00:14:23.550 --> 00:14:35.520 Like really done a lot to to make community and to build connection and the knowledge base around trans folks and what it you know whether its medical or social all that stuff that we know, deal with and 29 00:14:36.030 --> 00:14:43.350 And I think it's important that we record the, the history of that activism, you know, while we still have folks around but are able to tell us about it. 30 00:14:43.890 --> 00:14:53.010 Right, and that's certainly not something that you know you you have rightly weren't able to go, go to the library and get out a whole bunch of, you know, oral history from trans folks. 31 00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:58.290 Know, I didn't know anything about transgendered people until I heard about Christine Jorgensen, 32 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:04.530 Okay, and what went around without that you've heard that. That was your first sort of awareness of this as an issue. 33 00:15:05.280 --> 00:15:09.450 6566 okay somewhere around then. 34 00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:16.380 And so I feel like I want to get into those things. But there's a couple of quick demographics and Alaska and then we'll then I'll move right into 35 00:15:16.470 --> 00:15:16.860 It that's 36 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:19.020 Exactly where I'd like to start like that the beginning 37 00:15:19.410 --> 00:15:25.170 Okay. Um so quick couple of things I die, but I'm assuming you use treat her as pronouns. 38 00:15:25.890 --> 00:15:26.340 Pardon. 39 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:28.140 You use she and her pronouns. 40 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.320 Yes. Okay. And where were you born 41 00:15:32.010 --> 00:15:33.390 For a trip to New Brunswick. 42 00:15:34.140 --> 00:15:36.120 And you live in Qualcomm beach now. 43 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:37.110 Yes. 44 00:15:37.290 --> 00:15:38.370 And how long have you been there. 45 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:40.260 10 years 46 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:44.400 Okay. And are you employed or retired. What was your work. 47 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:51.240 I'm permanently disabled. I was a nurse and I was attacked by one of my patients, six years ago. 48 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:53.250 Six years ago permanent 49 00:15:53.370 --> 00:15:53.850 Permanent 50 00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:55.080 To only six years ago. 51 00:15:55.410 --> 00:15:55.770 Yeah. 52 00:15:56.190 --> 00:16:02.910 Oh, wow. And so, let them. That's one of my questions well as what what in visible or invisible disabilities do you deal with 53 00:16:03.660 --> 00:16:15.330 Well, the lady was a geriatric dementia care nurse and. She punched me in the head and gave me a brain injury. So I have trouble with my motor skills. 54 00:16:15.660 --> 00:16:22.950 Okay, walking writing fine motor skills, great, but I'm a lot better than I was. 55 00:16:23.730 --> 00:16:25.290 Long recovery process. Hey, 56 00:16:25.380 --> 00:16:36.420 Yes. Yeah, when I was first injured. I had full body tremors couldn't swallow couldn't speak and thank God, I've gotten better. 57 00:16:36.810 --> 00:16:44.280 Oh my goodness. Wow. I'm glad. Glad to see him here because those things. I mean, you know, brain injury right that spell just take you right out. 58 00:16:44.670 --> 00:16:50.190 Yeah. Wow. And what, what's your, your relationship or family status. 59 00:16:51.960 --> 00:17:00.540 My mother has passed away and my father's passed away and my brother refuses to see me I'm I am in touch with 60 00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:05.910 A 95 year old orange. Okay, and three of my cousins. 61 00:17:06.780 --> 00:17:08.670 And you have a partner or any kids. 62 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:09.690 No, no. 63 00:17:11.820 --> 00:17:14.040 And I'm assuming your sex assigned at birth was male 64 00:17:14.550 --> 00:17:18.930 Yes. And what is your current gender identity or what has been the trajectory there. 65 00:17:19.590 --> 00:17:21.270 I'm legally female now. 66 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:24.210 And I have my 67 00:17:25.530 --> 00:17:35.760 What I affectionately call the snip snip done in 1971 71 I had the rest of the surgery, completed in 1977 okay 68 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:36.630 Wow. 69 00:17:37.230 --> 00:17:38.880 Be 43 years and may 70 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:41.010 Congratulations. 71 00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:45.630 I was the first one done at the Royal Colombian Hospital in New Westminster BC. 72 00:17:46.080 --> 00:17:47.610 Oh really, yeah. 73 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:51.690 Wow, I didn't even know they were doing those surgeries locally at all, at that point. 74 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:54.180 I was the first one done 75 00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:59.430 Amazing. And if I can share a little side story about that. 76 00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:04.710 The when I went to see the surgeon with my boyfriend at the time. 77 00:18:05.850 --> 00:18:14.280 You know I told him I was transgendered. And he looked at me and he said, I don't understand why a pretty young woman like you would want to become a man 78 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:22.470 And I said, it's the other way. And he looked at me and he said, I'm looking for surgery right away. 79 00:18:23.310 --> 00:18:24.540 Wow. 80 00:18:25.800 --> 00:18:27.360 I thought that was really funny. 81 00:18:28.050 --> 00:18:33.360 No kidding. Hey, it's amazing. Sometimes the assumptions people make. And you're like, oh, let me just 82 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.350 Yeah, right. Let's just flip that calling. Yeah. 83 00:18:38.760 --> 00:18:41.730 Well, also also said something about how well you were looking at that point. 84 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:43.590 Well, I was just me. 85 00:18:44.490 --> 00:18:48.660 That's amazing. The real me, I'd like to think the real mean we're shining through 86 00:18:49.050 --> 00:18:53.190 Exactly, exactly. It's, you know, there's a sense, people get sometimes right 87 00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:58.770 Yeah and why do you identify or categorize your sexuality or do you 88 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.350 Um, I'm a heterosexual TRANSGENDERED PERSON. 89 00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:05.040 Okay. 90 00:19:06.390 --> 00:19:12.030 And what about race, ethnicity, cultural heritage, any of those things that are important to you. 91 00:19:12.570 --> 00:19:18.270 Well, I was adopted, so I don't really know about my biological past 92 00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:23.670 Right. But the family that raised me were descended from United Empire Loyalists 93 00:19:24.120 --> 00:19:25.980 Hmm, okay. 94 00:19:28.650 --> 00:19:35.250 Um, and is there. I think I've got all the things I owe a level of education completed. 95 00:19:36.360 --> 00:19:37.320 I have 96 00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:43.350 Three years of an education degree done, and I'm a licensed practical nurse. 97 00:19:43.860 --> 00:19:44.400 Began 98 00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:48.120 My background in social work always loved the LPN. 99 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.240 Okay, any other aspect of identity that's important to discuss before we get into the fun stuff. 100 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.370 Not that I can think of. 101 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.870 Okay. And if there's anything that comes up that you're like, Oh, I should have mentioned this part of my 102 00:20:01.770 --> 00:20:08.460 Just insert that in as we go along, you know, the demographics aren't aren't the important part of the conversation is the important part. So, 103 00:20:08.580 --> 00:20:21.780 Okay, so let's move to the fun the fun stuff. So when they do very first. I love that you just jumped right to that. But when did you first hear about the idea of transgender and it sounds like Christina Robinson was the first thing 104 00:20:22.230 --> 00:20:31.710 Yeah. And as I said I was probably 15 or 16 but I knew from about the age of four or five there was something wrong with me. 105 00:20:33.060 --> 00:20:42.480 Because my mom used to take my brother and I to church and we had to wear the blazers and the great flannel pants and the bow tie. 106 00:20:43.020 --> 00:20:53.460 And I can remember when I was four or five crying, and saying that I wanted to wear party dresses like all the other girls and she had to keep reminding me that I was not a girl. 107 00:20:54.570 --> 00:21:08.280 And from a very early age. Mom always made her say our prayers, you know. Now I lay me down to sleep. Right. And I would quietly and every night saying God when I wake up, please turn me into a little girl. 108 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:16.080 And I would lay in bed, sometimes and try and will what I call the horrible illness to go back into my body. 109 00:21:16.860 --> 00:21:24.510 And I would wake up in the morning and touch myself and and still be there and I would cry, almost every morning. Oh my goodness. 110 00:21:25.230 --> 00:21:35.550 And so it was a really early age, but I never heard about transgendered people. Right. And then when I heard about Christine Jorgensen, it was just a light bulb went on. 111 00:21:36.630 --> 00:21:39.660 And I thought, Oh my God, there are people like me. 112 00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:44.100 Right. And what's this something like in the newspaper that you read or something like this. 113 00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:53.280 Magazine. Okay. Yeah. And it really was Evan like somebody turned the light on. I'm like, 114 00:21:53.490 --> 00:21:57.780 Once basically once you knew what the idea was, you're like, that's it. That explains everything 115 00:21:58.110 --> 00:21:59.340 Right, right. 116 00:22:00.120 --> 00:22:10.950 And when I was growing up, I was always the shortest kid the skinniest kid and very effeminate, so I was a target of a lot of pedophiles growing up. Right, right. 117 00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:13.260 They sort of read that vulnerability in 118 00:22:13.290 --> 00:22:15.900 Yeah out that way. Definitely. 119 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:28.470 And I mean I'm doing my parents were divorced when I was six, and I didn't really have a father figures. So these guys would take me campaign, take me off to the lake and 120 00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:37.560 You know, take me out for hamburgers and I didn't think anything was wrong by performing a sex act on them. It meant I couldn't do these things. 121 00:22:37.860 --> 00:22:43.380 Right. That was sort of a ticket to be able to go and do the normal fun stuff like camping or whatever. 122 00:22:43.470 --> 00:22:43.980 Right. 123 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:50.580 And that was, that was that the, the, the price of the entrance ticket and you just had no idea that that was not what everyone was doing 124 00:22:51.030 --> 00:22:55.290 Right. That's a really good way to put it. The price of the intrinsic. Mm hmm. 125 00:22:56.130 --> 00:23:03.090 And was that something as as you got as you got older. Was that something that you look back on and had a different sort of take on it when you start to understand that. 126 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:15.180 Yeah, it took quite a while for me to realize what was going on was wrong, right, because it didn't seem wrong I trusted these men. And I thought, oh, well, if that's what I have to do. 127 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:16.350 Mm hmm. 128 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:24.180 And when, when did you realize that it was like, what was that that sort of moment in your life, you're like, oh, that's not okay anymore. 129 00:23:25.530 --> 00:23:26.610 Or probably 130 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:47.340 Around the age of 13 or 14 okay my mother, put me in a mental institution in New Brunswick. When I was 14 and after eight months in the hospital. The psychologist said to me, You're a homosexual and you just need to accept it and my little voice said, No, you're not. 131 00:23:48.570 --> 00:23:52.260 Right, because they had, they had no idea what else to label that what they were seeing 132 00:23:52.620 --> 00:24:00.390 Right, right. And so that's about 1314 so it was very shortly afterwards that you then read about Christine 133 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:01.260 You're going to 134 00:24:02.850 --> 00:24:07.290 And so when that happened around go 1515 1516 135 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:08.010 Yeah. 136 00:24:08.610 --> 00:24:10.380 And so when when that happened, 137 00:24:12.750 --> 00:24:19.920 You know, did you have a way to get any other information or did you only have this one story. Did you see anything else out. 138 00:24:20.820 --> 00:24:31.860 Well, I went to my family doctor. Okay, and his only comment to me when I told him about Christine Jorgensen, you know that I thought I was one of those kind of people 139 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:38.790 Right. He said, Oh, David. Don't be so foolish. Now go home and that was all I ever got. Oh. 140 00:24:39.300 --> 00:24:39.990 Okay. 141 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:49.470 So when did you first sort of start to actually access information at that you actually know maybe met another person or was it a magazine. 142 00:24:49.860 --> 00:25:08.670 Well production was a small city at that point. So I left Frederickson moved to Toronto, okay, because I was acting stage plays and stuff and couple of actresses that I had meant said if you ever want to come to Toronto will help you get work okay and 143 00:25:09.870 --> 00:25:14.580 So that didn't work out, make a long story short, and 144 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:24.990 I went to a restaurant, one day, and there was a table of drag queens and I had never seen anything like that in my life. Right, so I couldn't 145 00:25:25.770 --> 00:25:40.830 Help but stare at them, and one of them came over and said, What are you looking at, and I said, you're just so beautiful. And she says, Oh, well, come on, sit with us. So that was my first introduction into gay society. 146 00:25:41.370 --> 00:25:43.170 It was nothing like that in production. 147 00:25:43.350 --> 00:26:05.640 Right. And so that's how I got it. And then I started doing drag. Okay, which, to them it was Greg. For me it was normal. And I would go outside and you know I'd go to a store and everyone said, Can I help you, Miss and where they've walked into the store. And people go, you know, any 148 00:26:07.020 --> 00:26:20.760 And was this was there a lot of divide in the community at that point between people who were doing dry. Like was it was the TV versus the TG or TX Or what how, how did folks to like define or divide themselves. 149 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:37.230 Actually, that's interesting. You say that because I got a lot of negativity, from straight society, of course, but it also got a lot of negativity, from the gay community, right, because they didn't understand. Mm hmm. I guess. 150 00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:46.860 And what about within sort of the drag folks, or was there with her hierarchies of different types of ways of doing 151 00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:48.960 Definitely, definitely. 152 00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:51.840 Tell me about. Tell me about that. What were the different product categories. 153 00:26:52.710 --> 00:26:57.060 Um, well, the ones that were performing and 154 00:26:58.590 --> 00:27:03.870 You know, we're sort of star status and then there was the other ones that 155 00:27:06.870 --> 00:27:08.400 Couldn't really pass 156 00:27:08.580 --> 00:27:10.140 Rate look like drag queens. 157 00:27:10.530 --> 00:27:14.760 Were some of the drag queens, you had to do a second take. Okay. 158 00:27:16.770 --> 00:27:20.070 And was there like was there sort of a 159 00:27:21.330 --> 00:27:26.190 Hierarchy around passing or was that not particularly considered important at that at that time. 160 00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:30.390 I didn't think I don't think was important. Okay. 161 00:27:30.810 --> 00:27:39.630 Would you say that there was, at that point, because there are so few folks, was it was there more of a sense of community because everyone has to look out for each other. There was just so so few 162 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:44.820 Definitely, definitely. I felt really safe and secure. Mm hmm. 163 00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:47.280 When did you start um 164 00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:56.190 Well, maybe you didn't, but when, when did the activism that that you know you have to take on what was the, what was the first moment that you sort of went oh I need to do some work here. 165 00:27:57.570 --> 00:28:02.280 Well, just to give you a little history. I started living AS DIANA. When I was 17 166 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.350 Okay, and 167 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:16.260 I got Diana from Diana Ross, Elizabeth. My middle name. My mother and said, If I ever had a daughter, I would have called her Betty. So I put Elizabeth 168 00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:18.360 Yeah, and Lamont, I just made up. 169 00:28:18.750 --> 00:28:21.360 Okay, yeah, and just 170 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:26.460 Know that you've never heard you'd never heard that last thing before it was just something you're like, oh, it sounds good. I'll take it. 171 00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:47.490 Yeah, I'm just made it out to LA. And so then I got in in with the wrong crowd and I became a drug addict. I was addicted to crystal meth, I was an IV drug user. Okay. And I did that for three years and then I just said, you know, stop or die. 172 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.320 And the sort of late teens, early 20s. 173 00:28:50.010 --> 00:28:53.460 Yeah, but probably just prior to that I hadn't been 174 00:28:55.020 --> 00:29:06.360 Accepted into the gender identity program at the Clark Institute of psychiatry in Toronto. Right. And I went through their program and they said yes, you're definitely transgendered. 175 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:22.260 But then the lady before me, the thing was that you weren't supposed to go public and the lady who had her surgery before me went public and the backlash was severe so they shut down the program. So I didn't get to do have my surgery, then 176 00:29:22.950 --> 00:29:24.090 Oh my goodness. 177 00:29:24.330 --> 00:29:28.020 Which put me in a bit of a state a tailspin 178 00:29:28.530 --> 00:29:31.230 And I think that's why I started on the drugs, just to 179 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:36.810 Hide because when I was stoned on speed. I don't give a shit about anything. 180 00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:38.520 Right, exactly. 181 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:52.560 So then when I was 21 I'm a friend of mine said had said if you ever want to get off drugs, let me know. Right. And so I called him and he took me to his cabin on Georgian Bay. 182 00:29:53.310 --> 00:30:06.750 And it was three weeks of pure hell smoked a lot of pot. But I was really sick for three weeks and then I came back and some friends had a party for me to celebrate my being drug free 183 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:15.510 And this friend says, Come in the bathroom. I got something for you. And I went in and he had a package of crystal meth. 184 00:30:17.010 --> 00:30:25.410 And he said once for old times sake. So I punched him in the mouth. Oh my goodness. So the math and flushed down the toilet. 185 00:30:30.810 --> 00:30:35.880 And that's when, with the help of my boyfriend and 186 00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:49.350 Just spaced out his name chat community home a file Association Toronto. He had set that up and I just faced his name out George, I think. 187 00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:54.570 And he and I had gotten together and 188 00:30:55.740 --> 00:31:01.650 I said, you know, are you doing transgendered people. He said, Well, I don't know enough about it. 189 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:06.300 So I said, Well, I do and 190 00:31:07.350 --> 00:31:08.070 So, 191 00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:15.780 I set up the association firm for Canadian transsexuals under his umbrella. 192 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:19.200 And so that's how I met, Rupert. 193 00:31:19.530 --> 00:31:22.740 I was gonna, I was gonna ask, Is this, is this where Rupert comes into the picture is right around 194 00:31:23.010 --> 00:31:25.860 The time of the the associated transsexuals 195 00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:26.730 Right. 196 00:31:27.360 --> 00:31:32.880 So this was, I believe, and you can. You'll be the one to tell me, but I believe this was the very first 197 00:31:33.930 --> 00:31:37.560 Sort of association or community group that was happening around that time is that 198 00:31:37.620 --> 00:31:39.180 Absolutely, yeah. 199 00:31:39.210 --> 00:31:41.100 Nobody ever heard of it before. 200 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:50.250 Mm hmm. And, Rupert. I think Rupert moved to Alberta and set up an association to okay it's in his book. 201 00:31:50.970 --> 00:31:56.400 And what was, what was that what was that process like for you. What was it, what were those very first days of act like 202 00:32:00.030 --> 00:32:14.730 It was fun. I enjoyed it, because I felt really accepted and, you know, I knew I was drug free, right. I had a lot of support and it was just like something I needed to do. 203 00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:21.900 What were some of the politics that you felt we need to organize in order to to address these particular issues. 204 00:32:22.830 --> 00:32:34.860 One of the big things I found is that people, you know, straight society said, Oh, well, there's not many of you. Mm hmm. You know, there's too few so 205 00:32:36.060 --> 00:32:37.620 We couldn't get any funding. 206 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:43.470 Because they felt it was too small a group of people 207 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:44.640 Right. 208 00:32:45.810 --> 00:32:45.990 And 209 00:32:47.010 --> 00:32:51.750 With their particular bits of activism. You have to do or advocacy, to, to, to bring attention. 210 00:32:54.120 --> 00:33:03.600 Well, it was all done under the chat umbrella. Okay, so, you know, we would be in marches and 211 00:33:05.010 --> 00:33:07.500 You know, chat would include me 212 00:33:09.030 --> 00:33:11.370 And what kind of what kind of marches were these at that time. 213 00:33:12.780 --> 00:33:13.740 Well, any 214 00:33:15.570 --> 00:33:16.620 Any marches. 215 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:19.800 But chat was invited to 216 00:33:21.510 --> 00:33:22.770 Which wasn't a lot 217 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.580 Sort of Canada Day. They have a banner. 218 00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:36.360 I can. There wasn't very many right 219 00:33:36.600 --> 00:33:38.580 So this was pre pride days I'm assuming 220 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.560 Yes. Yeah, loving that 221 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:41.340 Right, yeah. 222 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:49.200 And chat put out a community newsletter. Okay, a few times a year. 223 00:33:51.150 --> 00:34:00.810 And what what sorts of sorts of things in the newsletter and would it be like support groups or like, what was it you know stories and people's families. What were the kinds of things people writing in the newsletter. 224 00:34:02.790 --> 00:34:04.080 For people to know that. 225 00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:08.580 There was support out there for them. Right. Okay, I'm 226 00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:17.760 Just news about gay rights. Okay, things like that. Excuse me. I got it to go. My throat 227 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:18.330 No, please. 228 00:34:24.660 --> 00:34:25.860 Not a lot of stuff. 229 00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:32.310 And it got to be a little dangerous because there were a lot of 230 00:34:33.810 --> 00:34:42.120 Right wing heterosexual men rate and a few times, we had rocks thrown the moon through the window. 231 00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:45.360 Graffiti sprayed on the building. 232 00:34:46.740 --> 00:34:59.370 Somebody tried to burn down the old church that we were in a while it was it was scary. We ended up staying overnight sleeping on the floor on mattresses to protect the building. 233 00:35:00.390 --> 00:35:03.930 So that you'd be able to call the, the, the fire department or whatever, if somebody 234 00:35:03.990 --> 00:35:09.360 Yeah. Oh, and hopefully discourage these right wing whatever you call them. 235 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:12.990 But there was a lot of hate a lot of heat. 236 00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:15.960 Death threats. 237 00:35:17.610 --> 00:35:20.580 You know, people roughing you up on the street. 238 00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:30.810 What was the through the institutional response. They were the police responsive to those things are how, what was the sort of the larger response, you know, from from authorities. 239 00:35:31.140 --> 00:35:48.780 When the well they would, they would come when they were called right but it was sort of like what, what do you expect kind of attitude. Okay, okay, you know, maybe you should close up shop. I remember one police officer, saying, well, if you weren't here, you wouldn't have to go through this 240 00:35:49.740 --> 00:35:57.150 Right, right. So as as if there is something you know that that that you should have known better than to be fighting that attention. 241 00:35:57.600 --> 00:36:12.660 Exactly right. Gotcha. And so at this time obviously just you know when when we're talking about activism. In this project we're using a very big definition because at that time even being out in any way was its own activism right like just 242 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:21.840 Spoke like no, absolutely. And the negativity that I was met with was amazing. When they would find out that I wasn't a girl. 243 00:36:22.140 --> 00:36:33.540 Right, that I had the wrong anatomy. In fact, when I was diagnosed at the car Clark Institute, I got the doctor to send my mother, a report. 244 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:48.510 And she I talked to her on the phone. And she said, well, I'm very happy for you and that's good that you know you found out what's wrong with you, but if you ever walked in my house dressed as a woman, I'll have you arrested for trespassing. 245 00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:50.610 And I never saw her again. 246 00:36:52.140 --> 00:37:05.280 Wow. Yeah. And when she died. I guess was four or five years ago. The only way I found out is because I would go online, every now and then and check the local newspaper for obituaries 247 00:37:05.910 --> 00:37:26.700 And it was three months after she died that I found her death notice her obituary, and I wasn't even mentioned, like I never existed. Oh, wow. And I found out I went home for my 50th high school reunion and I hadn't been home since I am 50 years right 248 00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:29.160 And 249 00:37:30.180 --> 00:37:37.140 My Aunt Polly said that not putting me in the obituary caused quite a rift in the family. 250 00:37:38.670 --> 00:37:40.260 I would expect so. 251 00:37:41.700 --> 00:37:47.880 So, so there were folks in the family who were, you know, saying that that makes me. This is inappropriate like that you know we got 252 00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:57.330 Yeah, and it was very interesting. When I went to my high school reunion before I went registered and I told them. 253 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:10.320 You know, my old name. Mm hmm. And my new name. And they said, Well, what do you want us to put on your name tech right we could put d Neil's because my name was David Neil's 254 00:38:10.890 --> 00:38:20.580 And I said, no, put my old name. Otherwise, nobody's going to know who the hell I am. And it was amazing. Evan, the 255 00:38:21.180 --> 00:38:42.600 Acceptance and the love was just it just blew my mind. I didn't know what to expect and people would look at me and go, I know you and they look at my name and they go, oh my god, you're so pretty. Or comments like that lots of hugs no negativity at all. It was amazing. 256 00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:46.050 I mean, that wouldn't have it wouldn't happen like that. 257 00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:47.250 50 years ago. 258 00:38:47.580 --> 00:38:49.950 No. Not at all. Not even close. 259 00:38:50.160 --> 00:38:54.330 And did you have folks that you were seeing that you remembered from 50 years ago that media, we're 260 00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.070 Not quite as kind at the time that had shifted their perspective. 261 00:38:59.250 --> 00:39:17.880 I actually saw one of my biggest abusers. He used to beat me up until I gave him a blowjob and and when I registered. They had sent a list of all the people that were registered in His name was there. I won't disclose his name right, but 262 00:39:18.930 --> 00:39:26.910 I said to the ladies at the registration table. Oh, when Bob comes in, Can you point them out because they've been 50 years 263 00:39:26.970 --> 00:39:37.200 Right, so this lady taps me on the shoulder and he goes, there's Bob over there. So I went over and he was chatting with this other gentleman. So I sort of stood off to one side. 264 00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:45.480 And he finished his conversation and turned around and saw me and he goes, will holo pretty lady. 265 00:39:47.310 --> 00:39:54.960 And he looks at my name tag and these eyes got big dinner plates and I put up my hand, and shook his hand and it goes 266 00:39:56.640 --> 00:40:02.580 Hi, how are you. Wow. You look different, and he tried to pull this hand away and I wouldn't let go. 267 00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:11.760 And I just said, it's been a long time, Bob, nice to see you. You're looking very dapper and he's going 268 00:40:12.870 --> 00:40:30.120 You look really pretty. He didn't know what to say no I held onto his hand for a good minute and a half wouldn't let go. And I was just really nice to him. And so I let go. And he was so nervous, like a Cat on a Hot Tin Roof 269 00:40:30.240 --> 00:40:35.160 Mm hmm. And a little bit later, he was at the bar schmoozing with the lady bartender. 270 00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:49.410 I come up and I lean on the bar and I tap them on the shoulder and he turns around and I went, Hey sailor by Lady of beer. Yes. Yeah, whatever you like. Do you want some stronger. How many beers, you want 271 00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:56.430 So nervous, but I just rose to the occasion, as it were. 272 00:40:56.700 --> 00:40:57.840 Good for you. 273 00:40:58.050 --> 00:40:58.470 Yeah. 274 00:40:58.680 --> 00:41:08.220 And also important for your own just you know your own well being. To know that you've you've, you know, confronted this person in a way that's like, you're not gonna, you know, you're not going to have the better on me this time. 275 00:41:08.490 --> 00:41:10.260 Right, you have no power over me and 276 00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:22.320 Exactly, exactly. You know, people have asked me, they said, why don't you take some of your abusers to court as a lot of survivors are doing great. I thought 277 00:41:23.520 --> 00:41:34.440 I don't want to do that because it's not just them. It's their families. Mm hmm. That have to deal with that stigma, or, you know, 278 00:41:35.550 --> 00:41:50.130 Their fathers or grandfather's there the esteem would go down. And I thought, I don't need that retribution. I'm okay I survived. Right, so I don't need to go there. Yeah. 279 00:41:50.160 --> 00:42:06.000 And and and use it in that way for yourself. It's about if I'm understanding that you're saying you know it's. Is it an option. Sure. But for me. Why put myself and other people through that, that are you know why increase the collateral damage around this already. 280 00:42:06.450 --> 00:42:09.900 Off. Exactly, exactly. I mean, I live through it. 281 00:42:10.080 --> 00:42:14.490 I'm over it. That was a million years ago. I don't need my pound of flesh. 282 00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:22.020 Right, right. Good. Well, good for you that's that's that's that's a lot of work in recovery to get through that. 283 00:42:22.410 --> 00:42:31.920 Yeah, one other thing about our reunion. I had three women come up to me and on separate occasions throughout the reunion. 284 00:42:32.430 --> 00:42:42.150 And they all three of them said the same thing. They said Diana. I'm really sorry that I wasn't there for you when you were going through this. Wow. 285 00:42:42.600 --> 00:42:53.040 And they all said we knew what you were going through and we should have been there for you and really sorry. And that was so heartwarming. Wow, you know, 286 00:42:54.120 --> 00:43:03.810 Obviously, I mean that's that's the the words you are, you know, hoping to hear at that time anyway. Any have to wait for 50 years but eventually you got those those words and that sentiment. 287 00:43:04.020 --> 00:43:06.420 Yeah, yeah, it was amazing. 288 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:08.880 Let's go back. 289 00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:10.020 Sorry. 290 00:43:10.680 --> 00:43:13.050 Did you have another thing to say about the reunion. I don't cut you off. 291 00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:16.950 Just them that I've reestablished contacts with 292 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:32.130 People that were my friends long ago. I've been back to production, three times I'm going back in August and it's great. You know, it's just the years and melted away but 293 00:43:32.370 --> 00:43:37.170 It's, it's amazing how they they're, they're kind of collapsing in on each other. And in a particular way. 294 00:43:37.560 --> 00:43:38.730 Yeah yeah 295 00:43:39.330 --> 00:43:48.570 I want to go back to the, the early days of the association of Korean transsexuals because this was, this is the, you know, this was this was the story that only you can tell. So 296 00:43:49.560 --> 00:43:54.630 In those in those early days, I have a little note for myself that you've seen that Rupert with like this. He was around the beginning 297 00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:55.800 Of the associate, yes. 298 00:43:56.430 --> 00:43:57.000 So when 299 00:43:57.060 --> 00:44:00.090 When did you meet rooper. What was that what was that what was that story. 300 00:44:01.950 --> 00:44:03.930 I met him through Chat. 301 00:44:05.490 --> 00:44:06.570 He came in. 302 00:44:07.740 --> 00:44:11.040 And she said, turn to remember 303 00:44:12.720 --> 00:44:27.030 Yeah, I think George introduced us okay and Rupert was living as a man, a boy. Okay. Um, I don't think I ever saw, Rupert. As a woman, okay. 304 00:44:28.050 --> 00:44:34.290 And I was really surprised when I was told that he was transgendered. I went really 305 00:44:34.860 --> 00:44:37.680 Really sort of was the same about me really 306 00:44:41.070 --> 00:44:45.210 Sort of, I wouldn't have guessed, but now I'm intrigued to know you. 307 00:44:45.810 --> 00:44:50.370 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's exactly it and 308 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:59.610 At that time, did you did you understand yourself as an activist. Did you use that word. Do you like did you, you know, was activism part of your identity in any way at that time. 309 00:45:00.570 --> 00:45:15.480 I never thought of as as activism. Right. I never, never used that word. It was just something that I had to do. Okay, you know, because if I knew what was going on myself. I couldn't be the only one. 310 00:45:15.930 --> 00:45:18.720 Right, and there was no support. 311 00:45:21.450 --> 00:45:34.290 So, you know, with chat. They didn't really understand it. Right. They were more into the gay society and it just seemed like a logical offshoot. Mm hmm. 312 00:45:35.220 --> 00:45:43.350 How did you find people like how did you know I mean, it's not like you could have gone online at that at that time. Right. So how did you, how did you network with people and find each other. 313 00:45:44.910 --> 00:45:57.300 Well, I had met some people through Clark Institute and then just in the group. I was in the community. I was seeing the gay community I spread the word. 314 00:45:57.990 --> 00:46:01.380 Okay, so just be sort of working on someone say I know someone who knows someone 315 00:46:02.010 --> 00:46:02.760 In touch with you. 316 00:46:03.210 --> 00:46:06.660 Yeah, and we had little flyers that we would pass out. 317 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:10.860 And make little like like pamphlets. 318 00:46:11.940 --> 00:46:25.260 Yeah, just a one page, you know, with act and what it meant. And, you know, are you transgender need help, come down and the address of the old church. Okay. 319 00:46:25.830 --> 00:46:30.870 And so it was just like I was a regular meeting that you would that you would have that people would come to like a support group. 320 00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:32.520 A monthly meeting. Yeah. 321 00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:33.660 monthly meeting. Okay. 322 00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:37.020 Or I'd be in the office. And if anyone came in. 323 00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:42.600 Also, you actually had like a space that you set up that you were there regularly. 324 00:46:43.110 --> 00:46:48.570 Yeah. Well, George gave me a little office that I could be in. Okay, cool. 325 00:46:49.110 --> 00:47:02.460 And so folks when I, you know, so somebody would say, oh, I know this person who knows this person. Let me send them to the group did you, did you ever have situations where you worried about who was coming to the group or their intentions for being there. 326 00:47:03.390 --> 00:47:03.810 No. 327 00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:15.270 Nothing. The only worry I had was, there was some trannies since I always called them trannies like me, but they were like six foot five 328 00:47:16.140 --> 00:47:30.030 With a big Adam's apple going. Hi, my name is Karen. Right. And my heart used to just believe for them because, you know, what do you do when you look that Manish 329 00:47:30.180 --> 00:47:56.130 Right or women would come in. Well, biological women who were transitioning and, you know, they'd have these high pitched voices. Say hi, my name is George and it would just really hurt because I thought I was always small and skinny and could really pass. But, you know, it was just 330 00:47:58.020 --> 00:48:00.810 So of course I'd try and build up their esteem. 331 00:48:00.870 --> 00:48:01.830 Yeah yeah 332 00:48:02.190 --> 00:48:10.290 But what do you see just some woman who's six foot four with a big Adam's apple and, you know, five o'clock shadow 333 00:48:10.590 --> 00:48:13.170 Yeah. And that just wasn't your experience in the sense of, you 334 00:48:13.170 --> 00:48:15.390 Know you only necklace up on that. 335 00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.100 Yeah yeah 336 00:48:17.160 --> 00:48:19.740 And then, you know, lot of these women would get beat up. 337 00:48:20.790 --> 00:48:24.660 And, you know, like, oh, like that. How 338 00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:25.440 You know, 339 00:48:26.640 --> 00:48:30.420 And that was another reason that I set it up was 340 00:48:31.710 --> 00:48:36.030 Self esteem, and some kind of protection, um, 341 00:48:37.140 --> 00:48:39.750 What, tell me more about the protection piece I'm interested in that. 342 00:48:40.470 --> 00:48:49.560 Well, they'd come in and they'd open up to me about what was happening and you know they're getting beat up or whatever and 343 00:48:50.670 --> 00:48:58.320 You know, I call the police and say, you know, this woman's been beaten up. Well, it's not really a woman. 344 00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:02.070 You know, and it just met a lot of 345 00:49:04.530 --> 00:49:09.150 Resistance. Mm hmm. And, but then there was a 346 00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:12.360 women's organization. 347 00:49:14.250 --> 00:49:28.530 God, and I just spaced. The name out and I went into them for some help and gardens and they accepted me just great. So I would turn other transsexuals into 348 00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:39.720 Onto them right and it did cause a bit of a stir within their group because they were saying, well, that's not really a woman and we're for women. 349 00:49:40.170 --> 00:49:43.920 Rate. So we thought that barrier. 350 00:49:45.270 --> 00:49:49.020 But they would accept lesbian women but not transgendered woman. 351 00:49:49.470 --> 00:50:10.080 Okay, so there was a bit of a fight there. Mm hmm. But eventually, you know, the powers that be at that organization Connor research, remember the name and they just said, look, these are women born in the wrong body. And if you don't accept them. You can always go to another group. 352 00:50:11.850 --> 00:50:14.280 And so it was just evidently mid 70s. 353 00:50:18.390 --> 00:50:23.160 early 70s, and if I left and moved to BC in 70 354 00:50:25.170 --> 00:50:30.270 Know that was in Vancouver, because I left and came out to BC and 72 355 00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:33.420 It could have been the the 356 00:50:34.590 --> 00:50:36.090 Vancouver lesbian connection. 357 00:50:38.010 --> 00:50:39.060 I don't remember. 358 00:50:39.150 --> 00:50:42.660 Okay, that's one isn't what I've heard of that was one of the earlier earlier. 359 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.610 St. Kitts alone. Oh. 360 00:50:44.970 --> 00:50:46.050 OK. OK. 361 00:50:46.500 --> 00:50:48.540 Right, yeah. 362 00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:55.110 As I say, I left Toronto in 72 and came out here so 363 00:50:56.370 --> 00:50:59.250 And Rupert had sort of taken over the act. 364 00:51:02.640 --> 00:51:09.150 So I wasn't, I didn't set up an association here in Vancouver. Okay. 365 00:51:10.590 --> 00:51:11.220 So, 366 00:51:12.390 --> 00:51:17.490 Yeah, George and I think Rupert was still in Toronto at that point. 367 00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:23.160 So a lot of the other stuff happened in Vancouver. Right. 368 00:51:23.190 --> 00:51:29.370 Okay, so that, but when you came out here that was sort of your first sort of looking for connection and organization or whatever. 369 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:30.360 Right, okay. 370 00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:37.350 Yeah, and I'm assuming there was very, very little, if anything, and that was Trans Pacific out here at that point. 371 00:51:37.740 --> 00:51:38.760 Nothing. Yeah. 372 00:51:39.390 --> 00:51:40.620 Absolutely nothing. 373 00:51:41.130 --> 00:51:44.310 Something I'm interested in. I don't know if you noticed, but I noticed this, you were talking using 374 00:51:44.700 --> 00:51:54.510 A few different words that that that folks nowadays would have to be a lot of divisions, and communities around what means what, who can say one, and so I and I and 375 00:51:54.900 --> 00:52:03.930 My, my, my doctorate isn't language and literacy. So I'm fascinated by discourse and how language changes and moves and what it means. And so 376 00:52:04.200 --> 00:52:10.680 I know, back in the day, you know, like nowadays people like argue about transsexual versus transgender versus transgendered. 377 00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:20.010 Versus, whatever. And then I'm interested that the word trannies has come up when I'm talking to some some older folks who are saying, well, that like, that was the word we use like that. 378 00:52:20.040 --> 00:52:20.580 Right. 379 00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:26.940 And so can you please tell me about that because that's a, that's a historical moment that has been last night. But let's get that on record. 380 00:52:27.810 --> 00:52:31.320 Well, we always we used to say sex change two 381 00:52:32.190 --> 00:52:34.590 Wins and sort of fallen out of favor 382 00:52:34.710 --> 00:52:35.430 Rate. 383 00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:45.450 What we always called ourselves trannies short for transsexual which I guess nowadays it's not you don't say that. 384 00:52:46.830 --> 00:52:51.060 Who I think depends on who you're talking to. And then any given moment what mood. They're in 385 00:52:51.750 --> 00:52:52.260 Right. 386 00:52:53.610 --> 00:52:54.360 But, but, yeah. 387 00:52:55.560 --> 00:52:56.010 Pardon. 388 00:52:56.160 --> 00:53:08.160 But yes, it's changed a lot. Now, my understanding is that word at that time was an affectionate word meant between people within our own community to refer to each other, kindly 389 00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:09.480 Yeah. 390 00:53:10.080 --> 00:53:11.190 Yeah, like your ear one 391 00:53:11.190 --> 00:53:13.020 Wasn't a derogatory term. 392 00:53:13.290 --> 00:53:16.680 Right, I never liked the term sex change. 393 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:28.590 Hmm, that was something I mean, yes, I was changing the outside, but I wasn't changing the inside, right, because the inside. It always been there and 394 00:53:30.180 --> 00:53:35.010 I was like, the term reassignment. Mm hmm. Rather than a sex change. 395 00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:39.840 Rate and the idea of I was assigned one thing, and now I'm assigned the new thing. 396 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:41.310 Right, right. 397 00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:53.760 Which which is nicely said, I mean that the new words. Now, I think that the either gender confirming surgery or gender affirming surgery. But basically, that's what you're describing is saying it was already in here. I just need the assignment changed. 398 00:53:54.090 --> 00:53:55.050 Yeah, right. 399 00:53:55.470 --> 00:53:56.130 That makes sense. 400 00:53:56.910 --> 00:54:13.260 And so, what other what other changes in in language. I mean that the the the training. When I always find it very fascinating because there's this whole idea of, well, you know, only certain people should use it, but we would trans women also use that word about trans men and vice versa. 401 00:54:14.100 --> 00:54:19.890 Yeah, yeah. I think it's sort of in the league of the word nigger. 402 00:54:20.190 --> 00:54:28.680 Right, like if you're black, and you want to call someone in your community, a nigger, nobody says anything 403 00:54:28.890 --> 00:54:33.720 Right. But if you're white, and use the N word, then you're racist. 404 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.400 Mm hmm. Yeah. 405 00:54:36.270 --> 00:54:36.810 And 406 00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:43.980 I guess your point is well taken. Because training was used within our group. 407 00:54:44.430 --> 00:54:44.940 Great. 408 00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:48.300 You know that's not a drag queen. That's a trainee 409 00:54:49.350 --> 00:54:58.530 Okay, so those and those were different things is that one one is somebody who's dressing up as a performer and other ones like I'm actually calling you a transsexual. That's what that right radius shorts for 410 00:54:58.590 --> 00:54:59.790 Yeah. Gotcha. 411 00:55:01.020 --> 00:55:14.010 Yeah, I think it's one of those things that I find fascinating in these changes in language because then you know, Ben. Ben came to the transactional vs transgender transgender, or whatever. Do you do remember that sort of shift in language happening. 412 00:55:15.240 --> 00:55:17.100 It seemed to happen slowly. 413 00:55:17.370 --> 00:55:25.140 Hmm, you know, you'd hear it more often and go. All right, is that the new word of the day transgendered. 414 00:55:25.710 --> 00:55:30.540 Right. And it was. Was that something that you were 415 00:55:31.620 --> 00:55:39.870 We were you interested in this, or three you with it just a matter of all of course every all the words are going to change over time we ever invested in any of these discourses. 416 00:55:40.950 --> 00:55:43.680