Canadian Military Oral Histories

User Collection Public

The Canadian Military Oral History Collection is composed of interviews of veterans of WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the War in Afghanistan. Over 370 recordings done by Dr. Reginald H. Roy and his students are the largest holding in this category. Historian Hal Lawrence also donated over 180 recordings that he collected of Canadian Naval personnel.

Collection descriptions

The following are descriptions of the major collections of interviews that make up the collection:

Reg Roy collection

Dr. Reginald H. Roy was the Chair of Military History (1968-1988) and the Social Sciences Research Centre (1970-75) at the University of Victoria. The Reg Roy fonds contains over 370 sound recordings of oral histories conducted over his career and was recognized by Lieutenant-Governor Iona Campagnolo in 2005.

Social Sciences Research Centre collection

This is an important subset of the Reg Roy collection of military oral histories and consists of extensive interviews with Major-General George R. Pearkes and other interviews with his family and a number of personal and professional associates for his biography entitled For Most Conspicuous Bravery: A Biography of Major-General George R. Pearkes, V.C., Through Two World Wars (1977).

Hal Lawrence collection

This collection includes approximately 120 interviews conducted by Commander Hal Lawrence in collaboration with National Defence/Défense nationale on the Canadian Navy (1940-1995). Some of these interviews have been transcribed and some are only available as transcripts.

Shawn Cafferky collection

This collection of 14 interviews by military historian Dr. Shawn Cafferky of the University of Victoria's Department of History were conducted in 1997 and refer to the experimental Squadron VX-10, and the testing and use of the Sikorsky CH-124 Sea King helicopter.

Military oral history class interviews

Since 2005, the History Department has offered a Military Oral History seminar course as a component of the Canadian Veterans Oral History Project, a joint project of the Royal United Services Institute of Vancouver Island (RUSI VI) and University of Victoria. The seminar course offers students the opportunity to interview veterans for course credit and the resulting interviews are deposited with University of Victoria Special Collections.

Elizabeth Hazlitte collection

This collection is comprised of six interviews with veterans of WWI conducted from 1983-84 by Elizabeth Hazlitte, a nurse at Victoria's Veteran's Hospital at the Memorial Pavilion.

David Stafford collection

This collection is comprised of nine interviews conducted by Dr. David Stafford, retired history professor at the University of Victoria, for his monograph on clandestine operations in WWII.

Copyright policy

The material is to be used solely for the purpose of research or private study. Any use of the copy for a purpose other than research of private study may require the authorization of the copyright owner of the work in question. The user must assume full responsibility for obtaining copyright permission to publish items in whole or in part.

Although the University of Victoria has permission to make the oral histories available to researchers, the copyright belongs to the interviewees. If extensive passages are used for publication, exhibition or presentation permission from the copyright holder is necessary.

Publication credit

The University of Victoria Special Collections will be given a copy of the book, article, exhibition catalogue, or supporting publication in all cases of publication, exhibition, or presentation of the oral history reproductions. In such cases a credit line citation should read as follows:

University of Victoria, Special Collections, Military Oral History Collection,
[Name of Interviewee], [Record ID Number]

Image: Elizabeth Hazlitte interviewing World War One veteran Egbert Browning in 1983

Resource type

Collection

Subject

Genre

Location

Canada, , Canada

Permalink: http://vault.library.uvic.ca/collections/4a7eade6-d0b7-4807-8cd2-6eb9c5a66937

Collection Details

: Items 789
: Last Updated 2025-04-01

Parent Collections (1)

Military History Collection

Works (789)

421. Alfred, Taiaiake G.: my Marine Corps experiences (May 24, 2007)

Title:: Alfred, Taiaiake G.: my Marine Corps experiences (May 24, 2007)
Description:: Rank: Corporal. , Interviewer: Wood, Jessica D., An interview/narrative of Corporal Taiaiake G. Alfred's experiences whilst serving with the United States Marine Corps. Interview took place on May 24, 2007., ABSTRACT: Corporal Taiaiake G. Alfred Taiaiake Alfred.mp3 0:00 Signed up in 1981 at 17 years old. Always wanted to be a soldier, drawn to military. Very focused on shooting guns. Liked idea of doing it in a disciplined way. Always had idea of being a soldier. 1:21 Friend interrupts interview 2:04 Discusses wife's pregnancy. Dreamed of war. Always dreamed of war. Other family had been in military. Grandfather was in Canadian army in WWII on D Day. Kahnawake full of veterans, WWI, WWII, Korea. Family against him enlisting, especially because it was the Marine Corps due to harshness. In 1981, Vietnam had just ended. That's what they associated Marine Corps with. 4:00 Asked a few vets in the community who where in at Peace Time. But they didn't' have horrific things to say about it. Grand uncle was in army in WWII was proud veteran, he said "you're running with a rough crowd." He asked uncle "What do you mean?" "You'll see" he said. Doesn't believe anyone could talk him out of it. 5:00 Bootcamp was to break you down and remould you into what they want you to be. Bootcamp was like Full Metal Jacket Movie. Was to break down personality and sense of pride outside the Marine Corps. Put patriotism aside. Even though it went against our principles as Iroquois people. Some elders let him know it was doing the wrong thing. Didn't go as a Mohawk. 7:00 Went to live as a Marine. Didn't distinguish between races in Marine Corps. They acknowledge racial differences, but everyone is green. I found that to my liking. Socially and out in town… most was black verses white. Surprise at the amount of the hatred they had for one another. Was privileged as aboriginal, whites thought we were one of them, blacks thought we were one of them. Never took sides. 9:00 Stationed in North Carolina. 6 months tour Asia, Japan and Korea. Twice to Caribbean. Once in Central America. Landed in Honduras. 10:00 Specialized in machine gun. M16. Then after a year switched to 50 calibre heavy mounted machine guns. Did 3 years, was a 3 year enlistment for infantry (instead of 4). 11:00 tempted to stay in. Effects of military helped give him a sense of discipline and organization, 12:00 personal discipline and work ethic and ability to negotiate interpersonal relationships and stress situations. 12:30 Politically was more difficult. You are who your friends are. If you are hanging out with a bunch of rabid Americans, you start to think of them. Until I got through all my education I was a lot more conservative in my views (with the exception of Indigenous politics) took awhile to purge mainstream ideas of the world. 13:30 Discusses how he was received by his community when he got out. Some pride attached to being able to go and do something like that. Some respect. Some resentment, from those who couldn't, jealousies, and dismissal… begrudging by way more traditionalists. Not articulated, but attitude they are serving the wrong cause. 14:30 But at the time, there was no warrior society. There was nothing in the early 80's until the cigarette industry started up. Worked in cigarette side of that. But when I was 17 years old there was no lacrosse team, no warrior society, no residential school (not affected much) minimal impact in their community. Overall impact, land loss and alcohol. My rez was a very dysfunctional and violent community at the time. What was the difference in between being in a war zone when every weekend was a war zone on the Rez. 16:45 Discusses early current recruitment programs for aboriginal youth. Canadian military has been used in recent times to try and crush aboriginal communities. How can a young native person want to serve and army that is diametrically opposed to all aboriginal communities? Want to undermine potential resistance and draw on demographic that is loaded up with youth. Targeting aboriginal youth. Fault native leaders encourage that type of thing. 19:00 Besides all the political stuff, people don't realize that the army is about killing. They try and build it up as fun or humanitarian but you only realize that's wrong once you get there. If they are bound and determined to go and kill brown people in the service of white people. Then go ahead. But most people don't think that's what they are signing up for. In reality that's all that armed forces are these days. I'm not a big fan of glorification of war. 20:30 Viable alternatives: It's as if war is normal. There is no need for an alternative. There is no need to go. For violent youth there needs to be an alternative. Warrior societies, offered by our nation. 22:00 Warrior societies are essential or we will continue to lose them to the army. When I was a kid I took advantage of every opportunity, but nothing was structured into anything. Long term. I would have stuck with that, I would have stayed home. 23:00 I was looking for disciplined environment. But it has to be real. When you're that age you want to be part of something big, and with a history, with some weight to it. The propaganda is so good; it is no comparison between rediscovery programs and being a marine. 24:30 Life or death. Need rites of passage. That's what this kind of thing is. 25:30 Wasase Network. Do you see that filling some of the gap? No, it's not. It's more for adults, more political thing. There are some that are connected to Wasase that are connected to things like that. This is more an affiliation of like-minded people with a common political goal. 26:30 Disbandment of West Coast Warriors. 27:00 Summer of protest expected in 2007. 28:00 No channel for the youth to focus their anger and energy. Marine corps was a warrior cult in the US. We don't have that option here. We need a way to channel that. It's a big gap. 30:03 end tape., and Interviewee: Alfred, Taiaiake G.
Subject:: Armed Forces--Officers, Military history, and Operation Overlord
Contributor:: Wood, Jessica D. and Alfred, Taiaiake G.
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-05-24
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: Honduras, Korea (North), North Carolina, Korea (South), and Japan
Coordinates:: 36.5, 127.75, 14.63333, -88.13333, 35.68536, 139.75309, and 35.50069, -80.00032
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original recording (MP3 and WAV) on digital versatile disc (DVD) in Special Collections.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: oral histories (literary genre), interviews, reminiscences, and sound recordings
Archival Item Identifier:: ATG_473
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-05-24
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .wav format at 16 bits and 44 kHz. In .mp3 format at 64 kbps and 24 kHz. Digitized by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

422. George, Ron: my Native American Veterans Association recollections (May 28, 2007)

Title:: George, Ron: my Native American Veterans Association recollections (May 28, 2007)
Description:: ABSTRACT: Ron George Ron George.mp3 0:00 Travelled to Europe in 1990 with aboriginal veterans as part of pilgrimage Travelled along Maple Leaf Route. Got involved when was president of UNN. Discusses uncles' treatment on return from war. 4:00 1976 organization became United Native Nations. Ron became president of UNN in 1985. Started NAVA BC chapter. 45th anniversary of D Day was coming up and so we decided to go to Europe. Had BC acknowledge aboriginal vets Remembrance Day (1988 Vancouver). 5:00 Lobbying by 1988 to have Aboriginal Veterans recognized nationally. Veterans Affairs avoids responsibility for involuntary enfranchisement Status was denied and benefits were denied but it was not in any one consistent manner. 7:00 Read into Bill C31 Standing Committee hearings Indian Agents had "Brown Book" evidence Listed 17 different ways that a status Indian could be involuntarily enfranchised. 9:00 Parliamentary standing committee, Senator Leonard Marchand came up with process to listen to all these stories. 2003 came up with cash settlement for Status Indians only. Non-status and Metis went through process for nothing. 11:00 Landing in Normandy on D Day. John Tony was 16 when he went over (lied about his age.) Talked about hunting enemy like hunting deer. Captured 20 at a time. Tells story about why he wasn't decorated. 14:00 On parade on D Day in Cannes France 1990. 15:00 The morning of D Day Anniversary Lists which aboriginal vets who landed on the beach on D Day who travelled with this trip. 21:00 As president of Native Council of Canada President NOV 11 1991. Laid wreath in Ottawa with Aboriginal Veterans. Vets officially recognized federally. 22:00 Discusses Aboriginal veteran monument in Ottawa. Result of senate committee on aboriginal vets with Leonard Marchand. 23:00 Discusses closeness of Japanese and aboriginal Veterans 25:00 Discusses urban potlatch in Vancouver that helped honour aboriginal vets. Ken Harris, Simon Baker, Bob George were in attendance. 30:00 Discusses Ovide Mercredi's statements towards veterans on Nov 11 1991 36:00 Discusses Veterans story telling on trip to Europe. Gil Cardinal came for small part of trip on behalf of the NFB Some footage was used in Loretta Todd's Film 'Forgotten Warriors'. 41:26 End recording., An interview/narrative of Ron George's experiences whilst serving with the Native American Veterans Association. Interview took place on May 28, 2007., Interviewer: Wood, Jessica D., and Interviewee: George, Ron
Subject:: Military history, Native Council of Canada, Operation Overlord, and Cardinal, Gil
Contributor:: George, Ron and Wood, Jessica D.
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-05-28
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: Japan
Coordinates:: 35.68536, 139.75309
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original recording (MP3 and WAV) on digital versatile disc (DVD) in Special Collections.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: oral histories (literary genre), reminiscences, sound recordings, and interviews
Archival Item Identifier:: GR_476
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-05-28
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .wav format at 16 bits and 16 kHz. In .mp3 format at 64 kbps and 22 kHz. Digitized by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

423. Bell, Ronald L.: my Air Force recollections (November 26, 2007)

Title:: Bell, Ronald L.: my Air Force recollections (November 26, 2007)
Description:: Rank: Brigadier General. , Interviewee: Bell, Ronald L., b. 1933, An interview/narrative of Brigadier General Ron Bell's experiences whilst serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force. Interview took place on October 26, 2007., ABSTRACT: Brigadier-General Ron Bell Interview by Val Rundans October 26, 2007 at Bell residence in Oak Bay, BC Digital recording length 1:16:21 Map of recording 0:00:38 biographical info 0:01:30 boarding schools 6 to 18 yrs old- Christ’s Hospital 0:03:08 1954 RCAF enlistment- 1955-1958 interceptor navigator St Hubert QC 0:04:03 training Winnipeg 0:05:10 intercept system before SAGE 0:06:20 squadron numbers 9 regular 0 auxiliary 4 Europe 0:06:55 European role same as in North America- airborne intercept guided by GCI 0:07:40 2 separate commands 0:08:22 ranks- change to US type army ranks in 1968 0:09:21promoted pilot officer- assigned squadrons 0:10:00 type of system prior to 1955 0:13:00 scramble process 0:13:38 GCI full network Pinetree & Mid Canada radar surveillance system like a belt 0:14:37 perception of Soviet threat 0:15:17 intercepting US bombers SAC lots of interaction 0:16:10 international op before 1957-too much based on personalities-impromptu-needed more structure 0:18:13 how significant change in 1957? Didn’t feel operationally- more at higher echelon- daily job- young bucks- jumping in airplanes- too many getting killed 0:19:36 American F-89 “Hog”- nuclear weapon made that airplane 0:20:08 CF-100 rockets- tended to barrel off in all directions- need for 400 to 500 yard range to be effective 0:20:40 lead collision tactic 0:22:21 CF-100 weapons obsolete but airframe wonderful-continued in electronic warfare training 0:23:00 Avro Arrow- not 1 to 1 CF-100 replacement- supposed to be huge step forward-shear power to overcome numbers 0:24:00 saw Arrow and Jetliner in Malton 0:26:34 operational effect-just a disappointment- did not affect operations- political football 0:28:30 F-101 Voodoo experience- shaking control column to prevent overpowering- excellent intercept aircraft- 2 monstrous jet engines- exiting to fly- quite capable with nuclear weapon- Genie 0:30:51 infrared rockets- escape maneuver to escape blast- 0:31:54 not aware of any actual intercepts of Soviet aircraft with CF-100 – soviets not patrolling off Alaskan coast- too far 0:33:10 polar threat- Mercator projection- distances quite close 0:33:57 DEW line like a fence 0:35:17 Americans had their own control in Alaska 0:35:30 5 squadrons Voodoos- same coverage no- faster-less need- same job fewer planes- economics 0:36:20 what are Americans using? F-102- F-106- very good only saw few 0:38:55 personal contact with Americans- flying back and forth between bases- cross training- US crews in Canadian squadrons to understand Canadian ways of doing things- Canadians in US but US moving to single seat aircraft- air national guard- amazing system 0:41:23 SAGE 0:44:27 Voodoos visiting Dow AFB- usually social- seal friendship- clam bake- low pass- frighten everyone 0:46:21 one NORAD region in Canada 0:47:00 US Regions 0:48:00 Cdns hand off Bears to Americans on east coast after Cuban missile crisis 0:48:20 deputy commander Alaskan NORAD region- normal radar system 250 miles beyond Alaskan coast- working with American more closely in ground jobs not in ait- trained at Tyndale- no US squadron work till command in Alaska- 1st Cdn General posted to Alaska- Cdns should be more involved- should not just be a sprinkling of Cdns 0:52:23 exchange of personnel in Colorado Springs and North Bay 0:53:07 Cdns involved because of NORAD 0:53:23 back to 1957-63 period- no big shakeup in personnel- just disappointment- emotional connection to Arrow- BOMARC couldn’t do what we could do- political game to justify cancellation of Arrow- no this is not fair- perception- other reasons 0:56:06 don’t think planning disrupted 0:56:48 back to Alaska- 60 intercepts of Soviet bombers- 0:57:14 BearH- cruise missiles- 1000 mile standoff- my job- intercept and id & track any Soviet Union aircraft- AWACs see out 300 to 500 miles beyond coastline- F-15s with tankers from SAC- “package” would fly out- based on intelligence- 1st AWACs then tankers then F-15s- info back to Elmendorf- see pickups 1000 miles away- unknown intelligence means –very sophisticated- not told about 1:02:00 show colours in international air space- always bears- turboprop- subsonic- low level sometimes- in pairs one high at 29000 ft one low at 3000 ft- we’d hit them high and low at the same time – simultaneous intercepts- no nukes- no need 1:04:51 back to Voodoos with nukes- most effective w/ Genie and nuke- never flew live- 1:06:28 special sites- special procedures- practice- Americans and a few highly trained and secure Canadians- US qualms 1:07:25 discussion of Cuban Missile Crisis 1:10:20 back to Alaska- everything we did went back to Colorado Springs and North Bay- President could intrude- interfere with operators- too much info handed around 1:12:10 back to Voodoos- info passed down differently? CF-100 like Battle of Britain- telephones- 1966 w/SAGE didn’t need 4 or 5 pieces of equipment- on screens- previously ladies writing backwards on boards- computerization at same time as SAGE- rather mad to do it ourselves- R&D enormous- support enormous 1:15:26 rode on American’s tails- SAGE would have never been developed w/o Americans- reasonably integrated system., and Interviewer: Rundans, Val
Keyword:: Electronics in military engineering, United States--Air Force--Strategic Air Command, Air-2 Genie (Air-to-air rocket), Elmendorf Air Force Base (Alaska), SAGE (Air defense system), Canuck (Jet fighter plane), Radar, Radar defense networks--United States, Radar defense networks--Canada, NORAD, F-106 (Jet fighter plane), Hornet (Jet fighter plane), Nuclear weapons, Mid-Canada Line, Eagle (Jet fighter plane), DEW Line, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Organization, United States--Politics and government, Pinetree Line, North American Aerospace Defense Command, Canada--Politics and government, Low probability of intercept radar, Cold War, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Personal narratives, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Communication systems, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Officers, Air warfare, CF-100 (Jet fighter plane), Flight navigators, Military, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Personal narratives, Integrated operations (Military science), Bell, Ronald L. (Ron), 1933- --Interviews, North American Aerospace Defense Command--Alaska Region, St. Hubert Airport (Longueuil, Québec), SAC (Strategic Air Command), Airborne warning and control systems, Dow Air Force Base (Me.), Coastal surveillance, Scorpion (Jet fighter plane), Air-to-air rockets, United States--Air Force, Surface-to-air missiles, Avro Arrow (Jet fighter plane), Soviet Union, Bomarc (Missile), Delta Dart (Jet fighter plane), F-89 Scorpion (Jet fighter plane), Voodoo (Jet fighter plane), North American Air Defense Command, Air-to-surface missiles, Air-to-air missiles, Aerial observation (Military science), F-102 (Jet fighter plane), Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962, Electronic warfare aircraft, Interception of aircraft, Delta Dagger (Jet fighter plane), Tupolev Tu-95 Bear (Bomber), Cruise missiles, Intercontinental ballistic missiles, Tupolev Tu-142 Bear (Bomber), Coast defenses, Over-the-horizon radar, Rockets (Aeronautics), Rockets (Aeronautics)--Performance, and Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Aviation supplies and stores
Subject:: Canada. Canadian Armed Forces, United States. Air Force, Military history, Canada. Royal Canadian Air Force, and Cuban Missile Crisis (1962)
Contributor:: Bell, Ronald L., b. 1933 and Rundans, Val
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-10-26
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: United States, Colorado--Colorado Springs, and Canada
Coordinates:: 38.83388, -104.82136, 39.76, -98.5, and 60.10867, -113.64258
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording (DVF) also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: interviews, oral histories (literary genre), reminiscences, and sound recordings
Archival Item Identifier:: BR_753
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-10-26
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 56 kbps and 22 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

424. Peacock, Robert S.: my Army recollections (October 7, 2007)

Title:: Peacock, Robert S.: my Army recollections (October 7, 2007)
Description:: ABSTRACT: LCol Bob Peacock Interviewed by: Natasha Taschuk Interview: 30 October 2007 MacPherson Library, Victoria, B.C. Name: Bob Peacock, 30 Oct, 2007 Birthday/Place: Walkerville ON, 1929 Parents in the military: No When joined the military and why: Decided early on in WWII and decided that I, being a student of history, wished to be part of the organization. Tried all the examinations for military college and survived 4 years to get commission. Infantry. Where stationed with 4 CMBG: 1955-1957 2nd Brigade; Went to Soest in fall '55 with 1st Battalion PPCLI; Camp Zvoel, camp Deilinghofen; trained for 2 years. Went back under 4 CMBG from 1963-1969; 2 of these years seconded to Br. Commanded 2nd Battalion Mechanized battle group '67-'69. 8 Years with Brigade in operations sense. Then 2 years in Vienna with 1970s Mutual Balance Force Reduction Conference as Can. Military Advisor negotiating with Warsaw Pact. "Very hot time from about 1949 to well on into...the coming down of the Berlin Wall. Never a dull moment." [All time in Soest] Rank when retired/when retired: Retired LCol, 1982. Kinds of weapons with 4 CMBG: 1955: basically WWII weapons. The gunners had 25 pounder guns, very light...we were using..uh..old model Centurion tanks, and as far as the infantry was concerned, we had trucks or we had nothing. (5:00) We had bolt action rifles, Bren guns, Vickers machine guns, 17 pounders, 3-in/81mm mortars.. .it was just the same equipment we had in Korea and which was available 1944-1945 in the Canadian army. • New equipment didn't start coming in until late 50s...uh, 1963, we were motorized. :X ton trucks to move us quickly around the area. I was in charge of bringing the first group of Armored Personnel Carriers in.. .I was an operations officer at the time, and retraining the unit to handle mechanized warfare. Then went up to the British and did the same with them and then came back down and commanded this mechanized battle group. Now a mechanized battle group is, at that time, four infantry rifle companies, . completely mounted in APCs, with tow-anti tank weapons, recoilless rifles, mortars, a very powerful organization (6:30). On top of that, • you had a troop of engineers; you had a squatter in the tank, and the direct support always of a battery of self-propelled 155 howitzers on trucks. So it was a very powerful thing, and that went on until late 1968 when Mr. Trudeau started hacking away. You know, it took us 20 years to build that force plus the other forces in Canada to an internationally agreed level of supremacy. ..then it went down to.. .uh. Training provided: We trained all the time. Mostly unit courses, but there were brigade courses or courses at various schools on the introduction of weapons and once the weapons were installed then most of the training was done under a controlled system by the experts in the unit. For example, during my youth I was a mortar platoon officer, and we continued to train people on mortars even if they weren't attached to a mortar platoon, so we had a backup of training throughout the unit. Plus you could use that same training to handle not 81mm but 60mm and your problem was having people trained to match the weapon. Training is your business. If you're not training you're not doing very much. Honest Johns/control safety devices: (8:30) There were Honest John...we trained with that in Wainwright. . .I've seen it fired two or three times.. .it was an obsolete weapon from the moment it was produced because there are an infinite number of weapons that are far better, but this was the one we had. Yes, there were nuclear weapons available, and they were within 20 minutes drive from our cantonment (9:30), the artillery and the Patricia's were in the same general area. The control was under Americans...and we were in charge of security. The brigade provided one infantry Rifle Company 24 hours a day 7 days a week, and a platoon of the company was fully armed and providing security at this storage place and the battle company was on 20 minutes notice to be there. And this rotated between regiments, so there were 12 infantry companies, so every 12th week, your company got this 2417 task. When I was with the British, we had a nuclear storage place just north of Hanover, and that provide the backup for 1 British Division, 2 Br Div, and the Dutch. So, yes, they were available and we trained in everything that we did, we did under the threat of nuclear war, which made most of us very cynical, because even if you have witnessed this in a movie, the idea of theory and practice, the idea of getting men to move through this...there has to be another way... (11:30) An other way was Mutually Assured Destruction.. .It was nuclear weapons were available and considered a valid option for solid tactical reasons. We were outnumbered 4 to Fluctuations in emphasis upon conventional vs. nuclear: Oh yeah. When we first went there in the '50s, this was a for-real possibility...the defense line was the Rhine. Now Germany came back into the fold and said that isn't good enough, so the line went forward to the Wesser River (13:00) and as the Germans got more and more troops and units changes, our whole concept changed and we moved it up to the East German border. .. and so you had the whole of Germany in which you're playing. On the other side, in the Soviet ground forces in Germany, you had 27 divisions, of which 7 were fully armed. The rest were motorized rifle divisions, each with a regiment of armour. Add to that, 50,000 Bundespence Polizei from the East German side, plus 7 or 8 German divisions plus 5 Czech divisions, plus 22 divisions of Poles, and so on. And we're sitting there with 7 divisions spread across Northern Ger. . .it eventually got up to about 20 divisions, but ah, nuclear weapons were the only way you were going to stop this...and the other side knew it. Now they said they would use them too, but who knows. The threat had to be there because we didn't have anything else (14:50). We were doing more and more conventional training throughout the '60s. The nuclear thing was still there, but the weapons numbers imbalance such that we could defend ourselves, because you need anywhere from 3 to a 10:1 advantage to make a victory and our equipment was improving, we had more aircraft, and they had the nuclear weapons. We laughed and said. we're practicing mechanized guerrilla warfare. Battlegroups going around, highly mobile, plugging holes and holding pieces of ground, knowing Russian tactics and East German tactics. And through the '60s and into the '70s it became more and more back to conventional, if that is any saner than nuclear warfare, I don't know. (16:20) Weapons 4 CMBG vs. weapons other NATO members: They compared quite favorably. The Br went through a complete rearmament through the late 1950s and while I was with them they were getting the product of their development. They had a whole new family of tanks, a whole new family of APCs, and self propelled artillery and what have you. So they were in pretty good shape, given the growing pains of any new weapons system. Adjusting your logistics to cater to a whole new weapons system. For example, in winter weather the Centurion tank would take 4-5 gallons per mile. The Leopard would get 2.5 miles per gallon (17:40). You see the difference. The imbalance of equipment as it came in 2nd division, for example, we had 4 different types of helicopters, each required different types of fuel. So you have to rationalize these and then come back and say alright, all these go over to one division, so as to reduce your logistic overload. In the Canadian brigade, our APCs were diesel, that was good. And with the APCs, we outran our Centurions all the time, so we were just delighted any time we could hook up with a German panzer battalion, driving Leopard 1s, because then we could move at the same speed as they could move, because otherwise, hell, we could walk as fast as the Centurion. Don't let me knock the Centurion too much, it has a magnificent gunnery system (18:45). We used to win the Canada cup for armored proficiency in NATO year after year. The Centurion was a nightmare to maintain. It had two Rolls-Royce Marlins in the back, and to change that engine was a 24 hour job, whereas a Leopard you could change the engine in 40 minutes. Same thing with our APCs...we could change an engine in the field with my unit mechanics and have it on the road in probably about an hour if we had everything there. And the British with their 432 APC, that was a major workshop job. So, you know, British have never been great at maintenance. If you've ever owned a British car, you know what I'm talking about- it's always awkward to do. And the Americans may not have as good a product and the Germans maybe not as good a product, but you can sure maintain the hell out of it. And the Russians learned simplicity with the T-34 and all their equipment and did very well with it (20:00). Leopard vs. Centurion: Speed, cross country ability, maintenance, economy of fuel, crew comfort. It had an extremely good gunnery system which the Germans took from the British. By the way, the Canadian Leopards were upgraded with a new gunnery system; the vehicle hasn't changed, but the gunnery system just added 10-15 years to its service life. It was a delight to work with the Leopard, the Leopard Mark 1, the crew just loved it, they found it extremely easy to maintain. I was trained in the Royal Canadian Armoured Course School on Shermans and then Centurion, Mark 1 and 2, and I'll tell you, there's just no comparison. Centurion is World War II technology. The Leopard is the result of German thinking as a result of their experience on the Russian front. They knew what they were going to face and they designed a vehicle to do it. The Leopard 2 is infinitely superior. Both are not technically as efficient as the Abraham or some of the other new American tanks, but as a workmanlike piece of equipment, I'd take the Leopard over the Abraham any time (22:50) because it's more economical, it's a nice little silhouette, excellent gunnery system, which is the only reason you have tank, and as I say, easily maintained. Maintained in the field by the crew. But the Centurion had served extremely well. Replacement of Centurions in 1976 far too late?: No, when we first went to Ger we were using the same gunnery system and the same vehicles that were used in Korea (23:50). 20 pounder guns. That was changed to 105mm gun, which was later changed to 120. The engines were changed, and you just kept changing the engines over and rebuilding the engines until you got new tanks. Expensive in fuel, expensive in hours, it was just an expensive tank to run. Whereas the Leopard.. .it's very simple. Centurion and Leopard vs. Soviet tanks: (25:25) There was a mix-mash of equipment, of course, other people's equipment is always better than your own, this is a fact with soldiers...The Dutch they had good equipment but it was usually one stage back of the British, and it was usually British or American...but if the Americans had the M-62 tank, the Dutch were still running the M-48. Upgraded...not a bad tank, it's just not the Cadillac, we're down in the Chevrolet. Same with the Canadian Brigade...we would look at the British APCs which had better armor, and some of them had turrets and you could put a 20 or 30 caliber cannon on it with a machine gun- those were called Salidens (?). We looked with envy on those because ours were very thin aluminum ...ours were battlefield taxies, they weren't to be fought out of. You were to get your troops through a lot of rifle fire and shrapnel and stuff like that, and once you got there, you popped the ramp and people got out. An old joke in Vietnam: if you want to go to hell with your buddies, just stay in the APC, because an RPG-7 will just destroy an APC. And if you get into urban warfare or close-country warfare, the advantage of an armored vehicle drops dramatically because of visibility, and tank hunting teams go in and pick them off. So you win some you lose some (28:05). The T-54 which was the first one we ran into in the '50s, and that is an improved model of the T-34 which literally won World War Two. The next one came out very quickly, which made obsolete most of the armor that we had was the T-62, it was a 3 man crew, maybe 4...no 4 man crew. You had a gunner, loader, driver, and crew commander. Centurion had 5, so you know, you start looking at this. T-62, excellent cross-country capability in all-weather, diesel, not finished the way an American or British tank is, the rough edges are there, but it's a workmanlike piece of equipment. I had the opportunity to drive an early model of the T-62, called the T-59, when I was visiting a Chinese unit outside Beijing. It's not for me, because I'm too big, but it's great for people who are about 5"5, and one of them has to be strong as an ox, to move the ammunition and throw these big rounds into the gunnery system. The .gunnery system was simpler than the Western system...When the T-62s and Western gunnery systems were matched up in the Israeli wars, the T-62s lost out all the time. And the same thing has happened with the T-72s.. .our technology in gunnery and ammunition and fire control system has improved to a point where the Russians haven't been able to match it, and the Chinese haven't either. But there are still a lot of them, and if one goes, the other one will get you (31:20). Serviceability of weapons systems: Our service and maintenance from the unit level on up in the Brigade was excellent. Spare parts were always a problem. Infantry Armored Personnel Carriers in the mid-late '60s were off the road because of one part called a quill-shaft, it's a small thing about the size of an orange, and they cost about $75 from what I remember. But it's one of those parts on any piece of equipment which goes. And as a result you would have. anywhere from 30-60 APCs in the Brigade off the road with broken quill-shafts, and there were none coming through in the supply chain. I had 16 APCs off the road when I took over in 1967, and I got in touch with food and machinery corporation in San Diego, and they directed me to Cummins Diesel in Detroit, and Cummins Diesel in Detroit said how many do you need? So we used our training aid funds, which was not very much, and we bought a whole bunch of these quill-shafts and they were sent over through the American logistics system and we went down and picked them up. I got a big rocket from the logistics side, and said if this was an aircraft on the ground, you'd fly an engine over from Canada the next day because an aircraft without an engine is useless, well an APC without a quill-shaft is useless, this is an operational necessity. And Brigadier agreed with me and said, order some more. So as a result, the ordinance corps suddenly had to go and get rid of the paperwork and go and buy the damned things. And from then on, we had no problems with keeping APCs. We would be on the road with maintenance 3-5 weeks on various exercises all through the German plains and then on corps exercises, and in our case, we went out with 97 APCs and we came back with 96, and the other one had broken down about a mile out of camp. So we were maintaining these things, and all the units were doing this. Your maintenance levels were quite a pride to you (34:30). A vehicle down is a section of infantry off the road. So that's the way we looked...a gun that's broken down is about 12% of your firepower, so maintenance is extremely important, and people have that drilled into them, and the drivers and the crew people take great pride (35:05). Aging process of weapons: The difference between the Leopard and the Centurion is...whole crew plus all the mechanics you can find as opposed to a small crew doing regular maintenance. Not to say that the Leopard didn't have the odd problem, but when it did, it could be fixed quickly, and that's the difference. You'd have a whole tank [Centurion] off the road, and God-knows when you'd get back. The parts were difficult; the number of hours of specialized work that was necessary to keep the think up, it's something like running the sea-king helicopters out here. ..(36:30)... you've got 30 hours of maintenance- it's a good vehicle- but 30 hours of maintenance for one hour of flying, is a little out of your pocketbook. Supplies: American equipment coming up, once you got the authorization to have the stuff delivered, right on [time wise].. . The British, on the whole, a little slower, but they were slow with their own people. Germans, we didn't exchange much, except with the Leopard tanks. From Canada, it would come over like bunches of grapes, depending on when they could get a ship economically suitable to bring things over, so you would have a glut for a few months and then you would run out (38:30). We changed over some equipment, for example, we got combat clothes. You wouldn't believe what we wore in the '50s, black-yellow-orange coveralls with 1944 web[?] (38:55) equipment and uh boots that only your grandmother would wear. [me: even during exercises?] Yes, this was all we had. As a result when you'd see a unit of Canadians in the field, some would have greb-hunting boots, some. would have rubber-soled, rubber-topped boots, because of the mud and the conditions...you don't tell a man to go out. . .if he wants to wear rubber boots, you know, bless him! But we finally got all this new equipment. But it came in •size ranges which didn't cove everybody. I had this 6"6 Newfoundlander who had 38 inch arms and size. 17 boots, and there was nothing in the system to fit. And he couldn't get it from Canada, because they hadn't made them. So they finally custom-made him a whole set, and he was put off, because he liked his coveralls, black, faded to grey [laughing, joking, thinks it's funny] (40:20). Role of Canada in defense of Europe: Go back one and say "what did the people in Canada feel?" They couldn't care less! You're either an isolationist or an internationalist, and if you're in Europe during these periods [demonstrates a list he had brought of the main controversial events during the Cold War, and reads them out], Berlin Blockage, 1949, same time the Korean War was developing; '53 the East-German riots; '56, the Hungarian uprising and the Israeli Six-Day War, those were connected; and I was in there with that, and we were operationally deployed with full ammunition and everything else, to the border- we were deployed. That was during the Hungarian uprising. We didn't know if they were just going to continue on or not (42:00), and our thing was to cover the Fulda Gap [?]. '58, that was the U2 spy plane, then you have the Cuban Missile Crisis, '62, and all these things have got tentacles going all out; '67-'68 the Israeli-Arab War, and that, I happened to be involved in that, I was with the British Army, and we troops deployed in Libya (42:30) doing field firing exercises and long-range movement, it had taken almost a year to set up these exercises, and we got there out at RAF station Adam outside Benghazi, and the war broke out. And orders came: surround the airbase and hold tight. And I was prevented from going down there, I'd been doing this stuff from Central Germany, and they had a tight time. Because the Libyans were going to go along with the great big air thing...of course, that had to do with the pressure on oil, too. And then in '68, there was the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and we deployed once again with absolutely everything we had, ammunition, 55 reservists from Canada were over for the summer, we said sorry gentlemen, as of now, we are deployed for real (43:40). So we went out to our emergency deployment areas, the whole brigade, the divisions and everything else, and Soviet military missions picked this us up, so this was quickly transmitted back, that they've gone and fully loaded the ammunition and everything else, and the nuclear weapons places are offloaded; they don't know where they're going, but the Soviet military mission sent that home. This is not going to be a push-over (44:20). Then there was the '72-'73 Arab-Israeli War, and this one here was extremely important to us, because in that one, the Israelis lost hundreds and hundreds of tanks because of bad tactics. And the Egyptian anti-tank missiles destroyed them. And they lost of airplanes; airplanes are quickly replaces, pilots aren't. Every M-48 and M-62 tank in war reserves in Europe and in the States were flown to Israel to make up losses. There we were sitting with no reserves in Europe and no more reserves coming out of the States (45:30). Now, you say, well build some more. There was only one factory, one foundry left in the United States, making cast-steel turrets, and that was in Virginia, I think it was. And they could only turn out 75 turrets a month. So you can see how the power curve, and at that point, we were extremely vulnerable, because we couldn't take 2 days losses (during '72-'73). The development of the Soviet Navy (46:15), pushing their Navy into the Mediterranean, pushing their Navy into the South China Sea, pushing their Navy down into Cuba, and everything else. This is an expression, saying, we are an international power. There were a tremendous number of incursions into our airspace by bison, bear, and other aircraft. Now mind you, on the other side, there were lots of incursions into Soviet airspace. Submarine encounters, and the Sonas barrier was activated a number of times, and it smacks of the search for Red October, that sort of thing (47:10). Soviet intermediate-range ballistic missiles (ICBMs), tactical nuclear weapons...this was going on just steadily until Ronald Reagan said, we'll outspend them (47:41). And when you look at the arms expansion of the United States under Reagan and the expansion of the British forces and the French forces, all with new equipment, the Russians either had to come to terms or rebuild all their forces. Their Navy was at the end where it had to be rebuild and there was a period there between '72 and about '75 which was about the last window of opportunity they had to make the desperate effort to win. And after that it was all diplomacy because the Soviets realized they couldn't keep up and therefore it just gradually went, because by outspending them, ruined the Soviet economy, ruined the East Ger. Economy, ruined the Bulgarian economy, all this sort of stuff. As a result, over 50% of their budget, I think you can check those figures, in the Warsaw Pact was geared to defense. Ours was something like 7-8%. So, you know, you start going through this...some say, while what a waste of money- it's a lot cheaper than one day of war. And a lot less bloodshed (49:20). Canada's presence was essential: T/F: Oh, when you're on two hours notice to be out of camp fully loaded at any time, day or night, 7 days a week, for year after year, you're into a different thing than considering this an academic problem in external affairs or the cabinet bureau...when you're worried about day-care beds and stuff like that. ..No, we were very much operational and were geared to it. ..this was a very tense interesting period. And our troops, for the most part, the thinking soldiers, knew why we were there. Now there were other people that the only reason they were there was to follow orders and go off on leave, but you have that in universities, you have that in anything else. As far as I'm concerned, I was always quite aware of how close it was to breaking out at any time. I found it even more when I was on the mutual force reduction conference (51:00). It was a very testy time, and intrigues all over the place. We had more East Ger spied in West Ger, Soviet military missions around. Every time you moved, you're movements were plotted. Action 4 CMBG prepared to take: (51:50) We deployed as part of 1 British Corps, and that's 1 Division in the North, 2nd Division in the Center, 4th Division in the South, and we were part of 2nd Division. British 3rd Div would come over on reinforced alert, so they had a corps of 4 Divisions plus a Canadian Brigade and they would have a Belgian Division attached. We just went out and occupied our emergency deployment areas and waited for orders from that point. Our deployment area was just to the East of Hameln by Pipertown, and there was a place called Schwerte, just near the Schwerte gap, and our Brigade was on the East side of the Weisel Berge, facing out over the plains which led off to Hanover, and to the South East was the Fulda Gap (53:10). So these were wide open rolling farm lands fought over many, many wars...but we were stretched out so paper-thin and that's exactly the time Pierre Trudeau cut 50%. And in fact I just received orders from Brigadier Jimmy Gardner that my operational area was going to increase by about another 800 meters for a battalion, and that's a fantastic amount. And so I looked at it, and he said, oh by the way, you're losing a rifle company, and we both sat and laughed...this is just ludicrous. [under Trudeau], fall of 1968. Line of defense (Wesser/Rhine): The Rhine was the last ditch, and the Rhine would be defended with nuclear weapons...and the Germans you see, when you move forward to the Wesser (54:50), the Germans said, we don't want a nuclear war on our land, so you increase the number of German divisions, you start swinging the conventional warfare...the Wesser was the next logical place, you can wade across the Wesser in a dry summer, so it's a symbolic thing. And then you're next line is the Weisel Berge, a big line of hills and then beyond that, you're almost to the East Ger border. ..to the South there are lots of hills and forest and things like that. ..on the whole our deployment areas were in the Weisel Berge, and then we would branch out from there, depending what the court ordered, and it could be that if an attack was coming here, you might be told to go get them from the flank ...(56:00). Close calls: Certainly, the Hungarian uprising, which was crushed, but we didn't know, we had no idea then...the other side wasn't telling us, they were letting us stew, because they wanted to keep us immobilized because their friends the Egyptians were having problems with the Israelis in the Arab-Israeli War, so there's wheels within wheels of this...(56:55). And certainly on the invasion of Czechoslovakia, while it didn't come as a total surprise...we didn't think they would move in, because international pressure at the time was leave them alone, but Brezhnev just couldn't do that because he was going to lose control, which he eventually did. We had large scale exercises every year. ..they were called 443, I think was the number which gave us clearance to go cross-country and all this farmland and everything else - pay for the damage -but we treated the whole of the country as a training area, the whole area, maybe 50 miles wide and 50 miles deep, with towns, cities, villages, everything, would be in that, and we literally treated that as an operational zone (58:50). Maneuvered all around there and we learned our trade without the restrictions of having to work; on a small postage sized training area in Britain or in Canada...We did a fair number of exercises, all operationally loaded. Always ready if at any time, and the opposition knew this, at any time, we could change from training to operations, because we were fit. Our vehicles were in shape, we had the equipment. ..and this was something you didn't mention: what do you do with the dependents? (59:40). In '56, we got a separate issue of trucks, out of the British motor pool, and we prepared all these trucks, and we had decided to give all our vehicles to our dependents to get them out of the area, but then, where are they going to go? How are they going to be evacuated? Shall we send them along the roads crammed with refugees, people doing the same thing, getting the hell outta there? Basically, our dependents had to have three days rations and water and have their car all topped up with gasoline and extra gasoline and they would supposedly taken by convoy, supposedly, thank goodness it was never tried, and while we went off into the nether, probably never to return. And we would play for time until they could get...at that point they were headed to French ports on the channel, but. ..I had a wife and one child, in '55, he was 2 and 3...she knew exactly what she had to do...didn't like it, but . there was no alternative (1:00:45). Ideological education by Canadian govn't: It was available, but soldiers don't listen to that. ..more garbage...our soldiers in the '50s had an average of a grade 8 education, in the '60s it was about grade 10...nowadays, you can't get into the infantry without a high school certificate, so you can see they weren't terribly interested...that's the enemy, let's go kill him. Don't bother me with details (1:03:00). And you'd have your little briefings with your platoons and companies about the political situation and you could just see, if you wanted to put them to sleep quickly, bang! Now, there were a few people, we would sit and have very very good discussions, but most people said you know, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, and let's not get too excited about this until it really happens, and when it does, we'll know what to do. Integration within the German community: (1:03:45) In Westphalia, it's much more difficult than it is down in Lahr. Westphalia, they'd say you have to eat a pack of salt before they'd acknowledge your presence, they're very dur. ..but when you do make friends with them, they're friends for life. We had a family next door to us, the daughter came over one day and asked my wife if she could help her with her English, and she was speaking very good English, by the way (1:04:25). And my wife sat down and saw her written work and made a few suggestions and this young girl kept coming back and then her mother came over and her father came over and a while later, it was just an acceptance and different customs. They were very curious, the Germans are very curious. There's not that great entree into the community, for example, we had our own chapels, very few spoke German, a lot of people tried, but you have to speak the language fluently to be accepted. Those who did, quite accepted (1:05:45). I bumble through in German.. .I've forgotten more than I remember. ..my wife was very good cause she did all her shopping in German and you go to all the same shops all the time and pretty soon they're addressing you by name, you know...what is the special today, oh, this is very good... Comments on leave: Your leave roster was put out almost on a yearly basis so that you could plan your leaves and you knew that at a certain time you would be on leave and someone would be covering your position (1:07:10)...this was all integrated. Very, very seldom did you get a snap leave [hey, this training area has closed down and you now have a week, if you want to go on leave now, go]... Trudeau brings military closer to home; comments: Other NATO members angry with Trudeau's lessened commitment because: If you want to say its symbolism, when one NATO partner says, ok, we don't see a threat anymore, we're up and out of here, what does that say to all the rest, and what does it say to the other side. Because we still hadn't signed a treaty with the East to curb all our weaponry (1:08:45), we hadn't done our reductions...we were at the stage where we could...personally !just felt betrayed by Trudeau and seriously betrayed...we had committed our largess, our youth, and this is our front line, this is not just something for the Europeans. Now, contrary, if, for example, Canada was invaded by Soviets, would you send forces over here to help us? Oh, well, we'd have our own problems back here, so there is an argument to say that you have to take care of your home defense before you start committing to other defenses. The other point of view which I hold is that geography dictates that we're not going to have that and you have that, and our front line is where the threat is, which is Europe. So again, you're either isolationist or nationalist, or you're an internationalist. ..I think there was no-one in t, Interviewee: Peacock, Robert S., b. 1929, An interview/narrative of Robert S. Peacock's experiences during the Cold War. Lieutenant Colonel Peacock served with 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group. Interview took place on October 30, 2007., Rank: Lieutenant Colonel. , and Interviewer: Taschuk, Natasha
Keyword:: Armored personnel carriers, Vickers machine gun, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 4--Brigade, 2, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Weapons systems, Weapons systems--Maintenance and repair, Target practice, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Operational readiness, Artillery drill and tactics, MGR-1 Honest John rocket, Soviet Union--Voenno-Morskoi? Flot, Israel-Arab War, 1967, Military trucks, Tank warfare, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Personal narratives, Rifles, Bolt action, Tactical nuclear weapons, Disamament, Escalation (Military science), Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Baden-Soellinggen, Germany), M48 (Tank), Nuclear warfare, Surface-to-surface missiles, United States--Army, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Germany, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Military life, Bombing and gunnery ranges, Canada--Canadian Army--Equipment and supplies, Antitank rifles, Soviet Union--Army, Camp Wainwright, Multinational armed forces, Mortars (Ordnance), Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Regiment--Battalion, 2nd, Warsaw Treaty--(1955), Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962, Cold War, North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Great Britain--Army--Corps, I, Canada--Canadian Army--Personal narratives, Fulda Gap (Germany), Canada--Canadian Army--Uniforms, Antitank weapons, Peacock, Robert S., 1929- --Interviews, Integrated operations (Military science), Israel-Arab War, 1973, Great Britain--Army--British Army of the Rhine, Soviet Union--Navy, Canada--Canadian Army--Artillery--Drill and tactics, Korean War, 1950-1953, Vienna (Austria), Military education, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Uniforms, Berlin Wall, Berlin, Germany, 1961-1989, Antitank missiles, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Finance, Canada--Canadian Army--Ordnance and ordnance stores, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Wainwright, Alta.), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Barracks and quarters, Artillery, Canada--Canadian Army--Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry--Battalion, 1st, Canada--Politics and government, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Equipment and supplies, Military camps--Germany--Canada, Deilinghofen (Germany), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Political activity, Armored personnel carriers--Maintenance and repair, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Lahr, Germany), Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Regiment--Battalion, 1st, Rockets (Aeronautics), Antitank guns, Canada--Canadian Army--Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 4--Brigade, 2, Canada--Canadian Army--Military life, Sherman tank, Canada--Canadian Army--Germany, M62 (Tank), Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Soest, Germany), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Ordnance and ordnance stores, Tanks (Military science), Leopard (Tank), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Organization, Tanks (Military science)--Armament, Warfare, Conventional, Czechoslovakia--History--Intervention, 1968, RPG-7 grenade launcher, Artillery, Field and mountain, Germany (East)--History--Uprising, 1953, Tank gunnery, Europe--Politics and government--1945-, Armored vehicles, Military, Basic training (Military education), Bren machine gun, Civil-military relations, NATO, Centurion (Tank), Canada--Canadian Army--Canadian Mechanized Battle Group, 4--Brigade, 2, Grenade launchers, Germany--Heer, Canada--Canadian Army--Barracks and quarters, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Battle Group, 4--Brigade, 2, Howitzers, Germany--Army, Canada--Canadian Army--Weapons systems, Hungary--History--Revolution, 1956, Bangha?zi? (Libya), Soviet Union-- Sovetskai?a? Armii?a?, Nuclear weapons, Europe--Defenses, and Leopard 2 (Tank)
Subject:: Cold War (1945-1989), Tanks (Military science), Canada. Canadian Armed Forces, Military history, and Korean War (1950-1953)
Contributor:: Peacock, Robert S., b. 1929 and Taschuk, Natasha
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-10-30
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: Great Britain, United States, Canada, Korea (South), and Korea (North)
Coordinates:: 60.10867, -113.64258, 36.5, 127.75, 39.76, -98.5, 40, 127, and 54.75844, -2.69531
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording (DVF) also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: interviews, oral histories (literary genre), sound recordings, and reminiscences
Archival Item Identifier:: PR_756
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-10-30
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 56 kbps and 16 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

425. Brodeur, Nigel David: my Navy recollections (October 31, 2007)

Title:: Brodeur, Nigel David: my Navy recollections (October 31, 2007)
Description:: ABSTRACT: Interviewee: RAdm Nigel Brodeur 31 Oct 07 Interviewer: Chris Perry Subject: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) in the Cold War Admiral Brodeur briefly describes his training and experience as a Weapons Officer. He describes his time on HMCS Kootenay tracking a Soviet Foxtrot submarine during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Goes on to discuss ASW in general, touching on weapons, screen and consort tactics, SOS US and responses to Soviet technological advances., Interviewee: Brodeur, Nigel David, b. 1932, Rank: Rear Admiral. , Interviewer: Perry, Chris, and An interview/narrative of Rear Admiral Nigel Brodeur's experiences with anti-submarine warfare during the Cold War. Interview took place on October 31, 2007.
Keyword:: Cold War, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Toronto, Ont.), Submarines (Ships)--Soviet Union, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Personal narratives, North American Air Defense Command, Naval tactics, United States--Air Force--Special Operations Squadron, Kootenay (Destroyer), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces, National Defence College of Canada., Technological innovations--Russia (Federation), Submarines (Ships)--Communications, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Operational readiness, Naval education, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Organization, Foxtrot Class (Submarines), Canada--Dept. of National Defence--Headquarters, United States--Navy, Canadian Forces Maritime Warfare School, Fire control (Naval gunnery), Naval gunners, Canada--Royal Canadian Navy--Sea life, Canada--Royal Canadian Navy, Sonar, Anti-submarine warfare, Brodeur, Nigel David, 1932- --Interviews, Canada--Royal Canadian Navy--H.M.C.S. Stadacona., Anti-submarine warfare--Equipment and supplies, Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Sea life, Canada--Royal Canadian Navy--History, Submarine combat, Canadian Land Forces Command and Staff College, Canada--Politics and government--1945-1980, Depth charges, Canada--Royal Canadian Navy--Personal narratives, Naval gunnery, Weapons systems, and North Atlantic Treaty Organization
Subject:: Cold War (1945-1989), Cuban Missile Crisis (1962), Military history, United States. Air Force, and Canada. Canadian Armed Forces
Contributor:: Brodeur, Nigel David, b. 1932 and Perry, Chris
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-10-31
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 2 sound recordings (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: United States and Canada
Coordinates:: 39.76, -98.5 and 60.10867, -113.64258
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording on audio cassette also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: sound recordings, oral histories (literary genre), reminiscences, and interviews
Archival Item Identifier:: BN_752
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2013-02-19
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .wav format at 16 bits and 44 kHz. In .mp3 format at 56 kbps and 24 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2013. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

426. Eggenberger, Mary: my Cold War recollections (October 31, 2007)

Title:: Eggenberger, Mary: my Cold War recollections (October 31, 2007)
Description:: ABSTRACT: Interview with Mrs. Mary Eggenberger 31 October 2007 (0:00) Born in northern Alberta, married February 1958. (1:08)History of military involvement: father in World War I, grandfather in war in Europe. (2:20) Did not know anything about military when she married. (2:50) Incident with Commander’s Wife and tea. (4:50) Had to learn proper behaviour, when to wear a hat and gloves. (6:00) Married for 18 months when husband transferred to the DEW line for 13 months, moves to Calgary with in-laws and daughter. (7:29) Husband chooses Europe posting. Boat to Calais. (8:33) I Wing, lived in Belgian village of St. Mard. (12:09) Fears of the Cold War- evacuation plan. (14:10) Posted to 2 Wing, France. Lived in own house off base. (18:56) Posted to 3 Wing, in 4 bedroom PMQ. (19:35) Very affordable to hire German help and time to travel. (20:40) Buys a camper van to travel with children. (21:42) More fears about war- gendarmes stopping cars in France. (22:40) Flies home for brother’s funeral, Airforce provides flight and support. (25:50) Wives all friendly, shopping and travelling together. (30:30) Money not really an issue- Canadian dollar very strong, and didn’t do what they couldn’t afford. (44:08) Difficult for children to be posted back to Canada- called ‘deported persons’ by other children. (47:22) Returned to school for matriculation and University degree after husband retires from the military. (101:09) Family proud when she married her husband, because they knew him before he joined the military., An interview/narrative of Mary Eggenberger's experiences during the Cold War. Interview took place on October 31, 2007., Interviewer: Hutchison, Sarah Beth, and Interviewee: Eggenberger, Mary
Keyword:: Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Wing, 1, Military spouses, Marville (France), DEW Line, Calgary (Alta.), Families of military personnel--Services for, Air Force spouses, Families of military personnel--Housing, Families of military personnel, Cold War--Personal narratives, Canadian, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Wing, 2, Eggenberger, Mary, 1932- --Interviews, Virton (Belgium)--Saint-Mard, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Barracks and quarters, Etiquette, Children of military personnel, Air Force spouses--Travel, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Barracks and quarters, and Air Force spouses--Etiquette
Subject:: Cold War (1945-1989), Canada. Canadian Armed Forces, Military history, and Canada. Royal Canadian Air Force
Contributor:: Hutchison, Sarah Beth and Eggenberger, Mary
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-10-31
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: Canada and France
Coordinates:: 46, 2 and 60.10867, -113.64258
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording (CDA) also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: reminiscences, sound recordings, oral histories (literary genre), and interviews
Archival Item Identifier:: EM_744
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-10-31
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 192 kbps and 44 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

427. Phillips, Barry J.: my Army recollections (October 31, 2007)

Title:: Phillips, Barry J.: my Army recollections (October 31, 2007)
Description:: Interviewee: Phillips, Barry J., b. 1942, An interview/narrative of Barry Phillips's experiences during the Cold War. Lieutenant Colonel Phillips served with 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group. Interview took place on October 31, 2007., ABSTRACT: LCol Barry Phillips Interviewed by: Natasha Taschuk 31 October 2007 MacPherson Library, Victoria, B.C. Name: Barry Phillips Birthday/Place: 25 September 1942, Mackenzie Island, ON When joined the military and why: Cadet Corps in high school; Father had tried to go into the military, others, everyone else, all in the military..."perhaps it's in my genes." "In those years, being in the military was something acceptable in society, I suppose." Went into reserves, Canadian Scottish Battalion, Victoria. Reg force, 1961- Royal Can Army Service Corps, largest corps in army. Provided trades to Can Forces, principally transportation support. Vehicles, movements- control and flow of large quantities of material, domestically or out of the country. Early on got into airborne, and was challenged because had a fear of heights. Really enjoyed the challenge of the airborne operational. "Band of brothers" The challenge physically and mentally was what the military offered me. Where stationed with 4 CMBG: North, principally Soest, in the British sector, part of 1 British Corps (already 4 CMBG). Went in 1967, and in 1970, the Brigade moved down to Lahr for political reasons, and became very independent and were cast to support either 2 German Corps or the US Corps..we could've gone up towards Frankfurt area or up towards the East. But the first three years we were in the British sector and we had essentially the largest brigade and the biggest capability in the British Corps at the time (5:50). Left Lahr in summer 1971. The rest of my time with NATO I was selected as an exchange officer to work with the British Army... Rank when joined: Went over as Lieutenant and was promoted to Captain. Rank when retired/when retired: 1995, after 34 years and 10 months of service. The military was downsizing drastically in those years, and they came up with something called the forced retirement/reduction plan and they had this magic formula- said that if you had x number of years of service or if you were of this age, they would offer you an early retirement at no penalty.. .it was all very confusing to me, but I took it to a pay sergeant in Camp Borden, and said, what do you think of this? And he looked at me and said, sign here, this was built for you. Kinds of weapons with 4 CMBG: (8:15) Personal weapons, individual weapons - we had a 9mm pistol and the F-10 rifle, and submachine guns, and on up from there. A lot of it was WWII type equipment or Korea War equipment. Crew serve weapons were things like the mortars - we had the 81mm mortar - we had anti tank rockets, we had an artillery regiment that was equipped with track 105mm howitzers and the armored regiment had Centurion tanks, quite old, capable of breaking down by looking at it... Training provided: (9:35) Working on ranges was something you did every year, more than once, and it was a range of things from going to the range and firing your weapons for annual qualifications to going out on exercises and handling your weapons in an operational scenario where you were issued blank ammunition, and you learned about fire and movement and how you were to avoid friendly fire casualties and that sort of thing. It was just an ongoing sort o{thing. Honest Johns/control/safety devices: (10:30) They were available and they were controlled by a joint American-Canadian thing...ultimately the decision to use tactical nuclear weapons in Europe was at the discretion of the Supreme Commander, which was invariably American...when it became a German, the decision to use nuclear weapons still rested with the senior American on site. But there were a number of units throughout NATO who had the ability to fire off nuclear weapons...so we had an Honest John battery and every time we went off on a major exercise in Canada and over there, they would fire a missile - very short range, they didn't fire at anybody in particular (11:30), we fired into a range area, and that usually signaled the end of a range exercise, so when you had been out in the field for a couple months and you were getting kinda antsy about the whole thing, tired of mud on the end of your nose, you waited for the huge rushing sound of the Honest John going off over your head, and you said, now we can go home, we've blown them all to hell [laughing]. (12:00) The nuclear warheads were kept in an extremely secure area, very few people knew where the location of the weapons was. If you did know, and you had a task to collect these things and deliver them to the battery, there were a whole series of hoops that you had to go through; papers that you had to present, certification you had to present, all of your drivers were hand selected, and you were always under escort, there was a high American presence. Americans really did keep a very tight control on nuclear weapons and even though we were allies and worked very closely together, the people who kept the strings on the nuclear weapons were a force apart almost. ..they had their own marching orders, and we had to abide by them. In four years, I was never tasked to go anywhere near the place (13:30). And the battery itself never really saw the warheads while they were there...they had the missiles, they went through their launch sequences continuously, and they knew all the hoops they had to go through. There was nothing on the missile, other than a nose cone, but there was nothing in it. When they fired this thing off there was nothing in it, it was like Halloween [laughing]. Fluctuations in emphasis upon conventional vs. nuclear: (14:40) Not really. The NATO policies that were in place at the time never really changed. It was the mutually assured destruction type of scenario. All of the military forces where there were British, German, American, Canadian, Belgian, it didn't matter, we all were out 50% of the year practicing conventional war tactics and strategies against each other, and the nuclear role was always in the back of your mind, that if things really got bad, we knew that these things were going to come into play (15:30), and so we practiced dispersion with great concealment, never really wanted to present a target. We were always out practicing conventional war...[NT: because of the discrepancy between the size of the Soviet conventional forces and the NATO conventional force, was it acknowledged that in the event of a Soviet advancement, nuclear weapons were a likely possibility?] That's what we always said, and I think we said that for the benefit of the Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces.. .if you come here, you're going to go across a number of tripwires, and those tripwires represent the nations you're going past, that you're now contravening...all the nations including Canada, etc...so while Canada maybe doesn't represent a very large part of this thing, we were there nonetheless...A series of tripwires that you're presenting an ever growing danger to us and the Western world. A consequence of that is us starting to use tactical nuclear weapons, and we're not going to wait for you to start using them first (17:25), so that was the threat, and I think if push came to shove, that's probably what would have happened. You present such a position of consequences to the other side, and if x, y, z, is not acceptable to the other side, nothing happens, and it worked, as crazy as it was. Weapons 4 CMBG vs. weapons other NATO members: (18:20) When we went on any major NATO exercise, the Canadian brigade was always chosen to act as the enemy force, because we were the most coherent, largest group there, and quite frankly, we were the best at the time- the best equipped and the best trained, when I first got there, for about three years. Notwithstanding some of the problems we were having with the Centurion and some other equipment, we were still the largest best trained fasted moving organization that there was. So they would say, ok Canada, we want you to get yourself right up against the East German border, and we're going to give you a Dutch and German regiment of tanks to make you armour heavy, which is what the Soviets looked like, and we'll give you an extra regiment of artillery, so now you really look like the bad guys, and the Canadians just went crazy...we'd take our helmets off and reverse the liner and put a red star in it; we'd take our combat jackets off and just wear the jacket liners which looked like a Russian jacket, so we played the part to the best of our abilities, and someone would blow the whistle and say start (20:00) and we would just go fast as we could and bash up against anybody that was around us and go around them, go through them, and play the Russian tactics...The capability of the Canadians was excellent. ..certainly in my mind we were the best trained...and with the Honest John capability along with everything else, we were a pretty good representation, and when we moved down to the South, into the American and German corps areas, then our role changed, we became the reserve (21:50), the people that they would hold in reserve and wherever a breakthrough was identified, we would be stuck in there for the counterattack...different tactics, different capability required of us. But the equipment improved over those years. Centurion tank was identified as the weak point of the brigade, and we started to get into the Leopard tanks, which at the time, were far superior to the Centurion. But even with the old Centurion, they used to have these multinational competitions over there; the infantry had a thing called Prix le Claire, where each nation would form an infantry team, there would be an obstacle course, a long distance run, and then an obstacle course, and then you move onto a range and fire your weapons at pop-up targets...Canadian battalions or teams usually won or placed 2nd or 3rd in those things forever, so it displayed the Canadian infantry capabilities very nicely (23:15). On the armored side, there was the Canada Cup, or Canadian Army Trophy, which was an armored competition, with the ability to move tanks around an area and move into a firing position and fire at targets on a range, and the Canadians with their old Centurions were always placing first or...and when we got the Leopards, no-one could touch us, because their weapons systems were just so much better. Leopard compared to Centurion: (24:20) Durability in the field The Centurions were constantly breaking down at the most inopportune time...just when you wanted to launch and do something...for the armored regiment to have a vehicle off road (VOR) rate of 60% or higher was not unheard of, so if you lose 60% of the armored capability because a tracks broken or the engine's gone, and quite frankly the gun system on the Centurion was starting to get really dated. So when we moved into the Leopard these things were on the road and not breaking down. It was like moving from a Jaguar and old Jaguar, to a brand new Mercedes...they don't break down, and they're very reliable. So suddenly our armored capability was improved dramatically. Replacement of Centurions in 1976 too late? (26:20) We were constantly saying we need more people, we need more trucks, we need more guns, we need more everything. You'd look at the threat in front of you, and say we don't have enough here. But then you'd look around at everyone else, and you'd say, we're not too bad...most of our stuff is old and clapped out, but we had this can-do attitude, so it didn't matter how often the Centurions broke down, we'd send teams out and they'd fix the damned things right on the side of the road, and off we'd go again. Every military commander, no matter what day it is in his career, is always going to ask for more...(27:25) The whole idea is you're trying to give yourself a capability that keeps your troops safer. The more military capability you have, the safer your troops are, arid the whole idea for a commander is, you're trying to keep your troops safe, so I want the best equipment to do that job. When I go into a theatre of operations, I want to come out of it with everybody I went in with. If I leave people there or if I send people home in body bags I'm not a happy camper, and if it's the result of not having a piece of equipment that I could've had, then guess who my anger is pointed at. .. Centurion and Leopard vs. Soviet tanks: (28:20) The Brits were using the Centurion, the Germans were into the Leopards, the Dutch had Leopards, the American had the beginnings of the Abraham...most of the European nations either had an American tank or a German tank...[compared to Soviet T-54, T-62] Technically superior, not as robust, I think the kill ratio of any NATO pact alliance tank against a Warsaw Pact tank, we would've won. NATO tanks were better than (30:00). Gunnery systems, again, varied, the Leopards were very good...the Centurion wasn't bad either...with a few little tweaks, the gunnery systems of all the NATO tanks were very similar, I think... Serviceability of weapons systems: From one year to the next, and almost from one day to the next [it was different] (31:10). Climate would have an influence on it. ..armored vehicles in the winter. ..hot dry summers, dust and dirt would play a role the VOR would go up. I think the Canadian armored regiment VOR rate was, I'd have to guess...I can't imagine anybody else being worse than us...the maintenance factor for the old Centurions was terrible.. .it was the biggest concern and heartache, and hitching point for almost the whole brigade...we've got to get a better tank, something that will stay on the road for longer than 5 minutes...and you couldn't go an engine out and an engine in the space of a morning like you can with a Leopard...oh no, Centurions are like old Jaguars, notoriously hard to keep on the road...elegant machines, perhaps, but a real • bugger to keep on the road. Aging process of weapons: (33:05) I just know that the Centurion was off the road far more than it was on the road, and the Leopard was a vast, vast improvement. Supplies: (1:06:40) when we were in the north of Germany we got our supplied through a British supply system and Canada would plug in our specific supply overseas, plug them into the British sector, and send it to that supply depot, because that's where the Canadian's drop it. ..[uniform coming from Canada] Leopards were routed through Canada (1:08:00), because we Canadianized them, we put this kit on them that nobody else was using. We made a good tank a little better. Role of Canada in defense of Europe: (34:05) Remember earlier I talked about the trip wire business, that was Canada's role. It wasn't simply the Brigade, we had an air wing there as well which also had a nuclear role, and they practiced that a lot as well. So while there were Maple Leaves on the ground, and Maple Leaves at sea, and but over in Europe, Maple Leaves in the air, we were seen quite a lot of in North and Southern Germany, and so throughout Europe, (34:40)it was recognized that Canada was there playing its role as part of NATO. And it was representational of what we were capable of, and we had this other force in Canada that was committed to NATO that we would deploy over to reinforce the brigade and make a division if we could. And we had another NATO role with AMFL in Norway. So I think in the eyes of Europeans, Canada was certainly there. I can certainly remember one those exercised where we backed ourselves up against the East German border sitting in the operations center waiting for the exercise to start, and I was sitting there with my commanding officer at the time, and this code word came across, and that told me that there was going to be some movement in this little village that we were hibernating in at the time (36:20), I said hey, come on, there's going to be some movement, let's go down there. So we hopped in my jeep down to this little intersection and this village which was sound asleep, this was about 2:00 in the morning. And suddenly from one direction I heard motorcycles coming and some German dispatch riders came into this intersection to do some traffic control. And from the same direction came the first squadron of an armored regiment (37:00), Leopards, came screaming up this road, just roaring about 40-50 miles an hour, and a squadron of Leopards going at 50 miles an hour is pretty...exciting! The earth moves. Then from the other direction came a company of the Canadian battalion, the Van Doos, and came up and linked in right behind this armored squadron. By this time, the whole of this village has come awake and they're all pouring out the windows and screaming and waving flags and cheering, nobody's booing them because they've been woken up at 2:00 in the morning, they're all happy and waving flags; some of them have got Canadian flags, some of them have got German flags, and I'm sitting there thinking, wow this is pretty impressive (37:56), and this thing went on for about half an hour. One squadron of tanks would pass and then a company of APCs with the Canadians and then another company....But the reaction of this little German village to this noise and chewing up their main street...when a regiment of tanks go by, the cobblestones don't hang around for very long. There was not one bad shaking of fists or anything like that going on, it was all cheering. When we were on the move, we either went into the woods to do our business, or we went into town (38:55), you didn't stay out in the open if you ever stopped for longer than 12 hours. And when we'd come into a town, we'd start to line up around sides of buildings, so you'd take over an entire town with your vehicles and equipment and generators...the closer we were to the East German border, the more friendly the locals were...they'd come out and say, are you comfortable, where are you sleeping tonight? Oh, I'm going to sleep under my truck. No you're not, you're going to sleep in my barn or you're going to come sleep in my basement, and by the way here's a couple of bottles of wine, or here's some cheese (39:40). The farther you got away from the border, the less that happened. Acceptance that you were there, understanding the reasons why you were there; but there was no more wine and cheese being handed out. (42:15) No matter where we went in Germany on major exercises, we were doing things that Canadians would not accept. Can you imagine an armored regiment roaring through the streets of Victoria and people waving little flags at us? I don't think so, we'd probably get more shot than anything else. But over there? It was just the way life was, and we were accepted, we were welcomed, and you felt you were a small cog in something much bigger, and you were appreciated. And Germans went out of their way to make you feel they were happy you were there. You knew you were doing a job and you were doing it well, and you were doing it well in the eyes of your peers [other nations] (43:15). The Americans were deeply involved in Vietnam, and the troops in Germany had been left to idle, and they were a very sad, down heartened group of folks, even though they had a major role to play and they had the biggest gear and they had all the toys, we could run circles around them. It was a rewarding part of the career. Action 4 CMBG prepared to take: (44:05) Unilaterally, none. As part of NATO, whatever was demanded of us. And the roles that we were given, both in North Germany and in South Germany, were pretty clear. South Germany was much more complicated and confusing because we were going to respond to either an American situation or a German situation, so trying to plug yourself into two slightly different tactical arrangements was complicating (44:45). But the actual action we were supposed to take was pretty clear and straightforward. We knew where we were supposed to go, and they practiced it at night. Somebody would decide it was time to exercise o:ur rapid deployment, so 2:00 in the morning, there would be a Canadian truck on the streets of Soest and other villages, beeping with a loud horn "snowball, snowball," and literally the Canadian brigade could be up, into the garrison, into their vehicles and equipment, and out into staging areas within about 6 hours. Completely loaded. Very, very impressive. Very difficult to accomplish unless you practiced it a lot. And then from the staging areas you're start to receive orders (46:00) trickling down through NATO and the lines of command, we want you to move here and do such and such. All of these various things were practiced when we'd go out on major exercises or they were talked about in study forms in garrisons...there was no question marks. [NT: were there any specific deployment areas?] getting into the staging areas was set, and deploying from there into a forward position, you waited for the orders to come down. If we were to go into immediate defensive positions, then those were known and identified. They weren't pre-established to the point of having your defensive positions dug in and all that sort of business, but the armored regiment knew that it was going to go from a garrison to a staging area to a deployment area. [NT: what is a staging area?] (47:40) It's an area usually midway between your garrisons and where you're going to deploy to. You can get everything out of the garrison and get everything formed up tactically... Close calls: (48:35) During Bay of Pigs; very tense, everybody was up on very high state of alert, all eyes were pealed to the east, what were the buggers over there doing. It was tense, but very controlled; there was no sense of panic or anything (49:45). Everybody knew what was expected of them. Ideological education by Canadian govn't: (50:15) Communist? Everybody had a general knowledge of communism, and certainly if you had any sort of military training at all, you were more aware of what the Soviet Warsaw Pact was about strategically and tactically...how were they going to come; where were they going to come; what were they going to come with; what were we going to do about it? That was drummed into us on almost a daily basis. Even down to the troops, the troops were aware why they were in Germany and what their role was (51:10). The troops had a specific job to do; the officers didn't have to turn a wrench or spit on their shoes, so they tended to sit down and think about things a little more...that's dangerous [laughing]. Comments on leave: (51:50) That depended on what alert status we were on. If everything was calm, cool, and collected...you'd start off with individual training, and then you'd get into a leave period in the spring, so some of your unit could go have a ski holiday or whatever...[more on this]. Trudeau brings military closer to home; comments: (54:00) Keeping the NATO tripwire intact. We were a large part of the NATO representation on the ground, and it was one for all and all for one type of approach to life, and if one of the partners said, I'm tired of this, I'm going home to worry about forest fires and avalanches, then the whole partnership said, excuse me, we've got these bad guys over here, did you forget them? There were some people in power at the time that had no use for the military (55:00), let alone the prestige and the place at the world's table of power that the military brought Canada within NATO. We had some of our bright lights sitting in some very powerful positions in NATO as a consequence of the role we had played in NATO. And suddenly if we're going to say I'm tired of this and go home, Canada's ability to have any influence on world affairs was going to be severely diminished in the eyes of all the other players, and I don't blame them. All these other nations are pouring in a lot more of the gst than we were at that stage of the game, and we were getting embarrassed about our abilities towards the end there (56:10). And so you'd go to the conferences you were supposed to go to, and you'd see everybody looking at you, saying what are you doing here, why don't you go home to fight your avalanches? And you'd sit there and fight for the rest of the conference. Other NATO members angry with Trudeau's lessened commitment because: Cold War no longer hot: (58:00) I don't know that he ever did, except until the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact fell apart...this little guy Lech Walesa stood up in Poland, and everything started to crumble (59:20), and everyone said, hey look at that, they're falling apart, the wall's coming down- I think we won! And then we realized that we could still play a part in NATO and not necessarily have troops in Germany anymore, and it was much more accepted at that stage in the game than Mr. Trudeau making his announcements...because the Soviet Union was essentially falling apart (1:00:07). So now we had one superpower, and the world's attentions were turned to other crises... Most significant changes with 4 CMBG: (1:00:52). What I witnessed was a steady decline in capability. When I first arrived there in '67, we were something to be reckoned with. By the time we got down to Lahr, our capability had been reduced. Morale levels were down. We knew we were important when we were in the North, and we knew that we were less important when we moved to the South, and the government paid less and less attention to our situation, and the equipment just kept getting older and older and we could see other people getting better and better, and knew that the political masters were not interested in keeping us at pace with anybody, let alone being better than anybody (1:02:00). That's what I witnessed, certainly in the 4 years I was there, and then you could see it continuing on at home, the capabilities at home were reduced, reduced, reduced. There's a certain critical mass in terms of military in terms of numbers of people that you have. So you do all of these formulations and you say, ok, to do what you folks [government] want me to do, I need a force of this many, and you see, I've got this much (1:03:10). It's like watching a strong man being withered away by cancer, but still being asked to do what he was asked to when he was superman, and seeing how that impacts upon a guy who is skin and bones...you say, I'm: tired, you're pissing me off, parts of my body are leaving me because they're pissed off. ..(1:04:25). Trends in govn't support: (1:05:00) I place it solely at his [Trudeau's] feet.. .I'm a military man, I hate what happened to the military under the succession of liberal governments. So many good men and women came into the uniform with hearts on fire and did good work, but were just left out on the end of the vine, and you can only stick that out for so long, so when FRP came along and they said, this was build for you Phillips, I didn't have any problems saying, I've fought the good fight, I've had enough of you assholes, and so I got out. Changes in perception: (1:09:00) [NT: the Soviet Union was the enemy right until it collapsed?] We wouldn't allow ourselves to think otherwise, because that's putting your guard down, and that's detectable from within but people watching us. It wasn't until you saw the first cracks appearing in the Warsaw Pact and you saw the Kremlin falling apart, that's when you said, they've got a few problems to sort out themselves, so I think we're reasonably safe now. [talks about the Cold War being predictable, 1:10:00-1:12:00]., Interviewer: Taschuk, Natasha, and Rank: Lieutenant Colonel. Medals and Honours: Canadian Forces Decoration; United Nations Special Service Medal; NATO Medal; United Nations Protection Force Medal; United Nations Disengagement Observer Force Zone Medal; United Nations Mission in Haiti Medal
Keyword:: Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Political activity, NATO, Germany--Army, Tanks (Military science)--Armament, Armored personnel carriers--Maintenance and repair, War games, Soviet Union--Army, Canada--Canadian Army--Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's)., Canada--Canadian Army--Military life, Leopard 2 (Tank), Mortars (Ordnance), Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Army Service Corps, Military camps--Germany--Canada, Bombing and gunnery ranges, Tactical nuclear weapons, Cuba--History--Invasion, 1961, MGR-1 Honest John rocket, Grenade launchers, Armored personnel carriers, Warsaw Treaty--(1955), Tanks (Military science), Antitank missiles, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 4, Weapons systems--Maintenance and repair, Tank warfare, Great Britain--Army--Corps, I, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Lahr, Germany), Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Soest, Germany), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Finance, M62 (Tank), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Operational readiness, Howitzers, Canada--Canadian Army--Barracks and quarters, Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Military life, Military morale, Soviet Union--Navy, Canada--Canadian Army--Germany, Great Britain--Army--British Army of the Rhine, Canada--Canadian Army--Equipment and supplies, Artillery, United States--Air Force, Canada--Canadian Army--Canadian Mechanized Battle Group, 4, Civil-military relations, Infantry drill and tactics, Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Regiment--Battalion, 2nd, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Baden-Soellinggen, Germany), Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Borden, Ont.), Nuclear warfare, Leopard (Tank), Germany--Heer, Camp Borden (Ont.), Bren machine gun, Canada--Canadian Army--Artillery--Drill and tactics, Deilinghofen (Germany), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Reserves, Rifles, Bolt action, Soviet Union-- Sovetskai?a? Armii?a?, Integrated operations (Military science), Canada--Canadian Army--Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 4, Canada--Canadian Army--Uniforms, Canada--Canadian Army--Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry--Battalion, 1st, Disamament, Europe--Politics and government--1945-, Multinational armed forces, Antitank guns, Berlin Wall, Berlin, Germany, 1961-1989, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Uniforms, Nuclear weapons, Antitank weapons, Warfare, Conventional, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Equipment and supplies, Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Regiment--Battalion, 1st, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Airborne Regiment, United States--Army, RPG-7 grenade launcher, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Germany, Artillery drill and tactics, Surface-to-surface missiles, Antitank rifles, Basic training (Military education), Canada--Canadian Army--Ordnance and ordnance stores, Artillery, Field and mountain, Rockets (Aeronautics), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Weapons systems, Europe--Defenses, Soviet Union--Voenno-Morskoi? Flot, Tank gunnery, Sherman tank, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Personal narratives, Phillips, Barry J., 1942- --Interviews, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Barracks and quarters, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Battle Group, 4, Trudeau, Pierre Elliott, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Ordnance and ordnance stores, Centurion (Tank), Canada--Canadian Army--Personal narratives, Cold War, Escalation (Military science), Armored vehicles, Military, T-62 (Tank), Vickers machine gun, North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Organization, Canada--Canadian Army--Reserves, Military education, Canada--Canadian Army--Weapons systems, Canada--Politics and government, T-54 (Tank), and M48 (Tank)
Subject:: Canada. Canadian Armed Forces, Tanks (Military science), United States. Air Force, Canada. Canadian Army, and Military history
Contributor:: Phillips, Barry J., b. 1942 and Taschuk, Natasha
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-10-31
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: United States, Great Britain, Canada, and Germany
Coordinates:: 60.10867, -113.64258, 54.75844, -2.69531, 51.5, 10.5, and 39.76, -98.5
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording (DVF) also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: oral histories (literary genre), sound recordings, interviews, and reminiscences
Archival Item Identifier:: PB_757
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-10-31
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 56 kbps and 16 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.

428. Phillips, Barry J.: my United Nations Protection Force recollections (November 2, 2007)

Title:: Phillips, Barry J.: my United Nations Protection Force recollections (November 2, 2007)
Description:: Interviewer: Merritt, Elena, ABSTRACT: Interview with Lieutenant-Colonel Barry Phillips Conducted by Elena Merritt on 2 November 2007 The interview begins with Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips explaining his role in the United Nations peacekeeping mission, UNPROFOR, in the Balkans with the Canadian military. Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips describes his uncle's service in the Second World War and how his death affected their family deeply. Lieutenant-Colonel explains when he first joined the Canadian Forces and his family's reaction to his joining. Lieutenant- Colonel suggests that his family understood the potential danger involved in his serving in the military, as Canadians had just seen two World Wars (5:00). Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips tells about the training he received for the UNPROFOR mission. He specifically mentions that he felt prepared, as he had learned and understood peacekeeping tasks and drills from his previous mission in the Golan Heights (8:00). Additionally, Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips expresses how he saw his peacekeeping service in the Balkans as rewarding and useful. Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips discusses the reaction among the local people about the peacekeeping force's presence in the area. Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips and his fellow colleagues outreached into the community by helping local institutions on their own time (16:00). Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips then explains what the overseas situation was like when he first arrived in the Balkans, seeing houses knocked down throughout villages. Witnessing the extreme level of animosity between different ethnic groups was an 'eye-opener' for Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips as a Canadian, as well as for his fellow colleagues (22:00). Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips talks about his interactions with the local people and his seeing the prejudices first-hand. He addresses the United Nations protocol of neutrality and how it was acted out in practice (32:00). Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips discusses the morale of his group during the mission, which needed constant adrenaline daily (35:00). Subsequently, Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips describes a close call his group had in a convoy, where a bullet just missed a soldier. After living on adrenaline, Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips describes that when he came back from the Balkans, he went on a 'memory dump.' This 'memory dump' involved getting rid of the tension, negative thoughts, and regrets (43:00). Lieutenant Colonel Phillips then describes some methods, such as sports and games, which help service persom1el to cope with the stress of their mission while overseas. Furthermore, he discusses his relationship with his wife and how she helped with his 'memory dump' on his return from the UNPROFOR mission (52:00). In conclusion, Lieutenant-Colonel Phillips describes how he looks back on his service with UNPROFOR: with pride for its success and with frustration for the lack of support from the Canadian government (1:21)., Interviewee: Phillips, Barry J., b. 1942, Rank: Lieutenant Colonel. Medals and Honours: Canadian Forces Decoration; NATO Special Service Medal; United Nations Protection Force Medal; United Nations Disengagement Observer Force Zone Medal; Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal, and An interview/narrative of Lieutenant Colonel Barry Phillips's experiences whilst serving with the United Nations Protection Force. Interview took place on November 2, 2007.
Keyword:: Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Personal narratives, Yugoslav War, 1991-1995, United Nations--Peacekeeping forces, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Reputation, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Battle Group, 4, Yugoslavia--History--1992-2003, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 4, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Drill and tactics, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry--Battalion, 2nd--Logistics Group, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Procurement, United Nations--Armed Forces, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Equipment, Golan Heights, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Leaves and furloughs, Yugoslav War, 1991-1995--Bosnia and Hercegovina, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Barracks and quarters, Bosnia and Hercegovina--Ethnic relations, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Organization, Post traumatic stress disorder, Canada--Canadian Army--Royal Canadian Army Service Corps, Bosnia and Hercegovina--Realtions--Croatia, Yugoslav War, 1991-1995--Personal narratives, Canadian, Psychological debriefing, Balkan Peninsula--History--1989-, Nationalism--Balkan Peninsula, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Recreation, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry--Battalion, 2nd, Rules of engagement, Bosnia--Politics and government--1992-, Croatia--Realtions--Serbia, Bosnia and Hercegovina--Politics and Government--1992-, Bosnia and Hercegovina--History--1992-, Croats, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Demobilization, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Canadian Airborne Regiment, Military spouses, Bosnia--History--1992-, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Officers, Training of, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Civil-military relations, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Military life, Croatia--Politics and government--1990-, United Nations Protection Force, Phillips, Barry J., 1942-, Families of military personnel, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Operational readiness, UNPROFOR, Military assistance, Military convoys, Croatia--History--1990-, Peacekeeping forces, Canadian, Balkan Peninsula--Ethnic relations, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Non-commissioned officers, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Regulations, Yugoslav War, 1991-1995--Croatia, Bosnians, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Reserves, Deployment (Strategy), Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Uniforms, Balkan Peninsula--Politics and government--1989-, Croatia--Relations--Bosnia and Hercegovina, Military morale, and Ethnic relations
Subject:: Military history, Yugoslav War (1991-1995), United Nations, Siege of Sarajevo (Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina : 1992-1996), and Canada. Canadian Armed Forces
Contributor:: Phillips, Barry J., b. 1942 and Merritt, Elena
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-11-02
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Geographic Coverage:: Canada and Balkan Peninsula
Coordinates:: 43.97233, 22.11567 and 60.10867, -113.64258
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: interviews, reminiscences, sound recordings, and oral histories (literary genre)
Archival Item Identifier:: PB_746
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection

429. Schurman, Don: my Air Force recollections (November 3, 2007)

Title:: Schurman, Don: my Air Force recollections (November 3, 2007)
Description:: Interviewee: Schurman, Don, b. 1923, An interview/narrative of Don Schurman's experiences during World War II. Dr. Schurman served with the Royal Canadian Air Force. Interview took place on November 3, 2007., Interviewer: Tumchewics, Louise, and ABSTRACT: Interview Summary Interviewee: Dr. Don Schurman Interviewer: Louise Tumchewics November 3, 2007. Victoria, British Columbia The interview begins with a brief introduction to Don, his birth in Truro, Nova Scotia in 1923 and the process and motivation for his enlistment in the RCAF at age 17 1/2. He describes his basic training at Dorval, Quebec, his selection for wireless operation school and the nature of his training and Fingal and Guelph, Ontario.. He recalls his selection for Bomber Command after his initial selection for coastal command was cancelled. He reflects on the high calibre of bomber crews "the cream of the crop." He recounts his journey to Bournemouth, UK and the additional wireless training he received in. Northern Ireland, for additional training. He recounts being shipped to a base at Honeybourne, the crew assignment process and the members of his almost all-Canadian crew. He describes his captain's leadership skills and the ideological closeness of crew despite personal differences. Schurman discuss the aircraft he flew. He flew Wellingtons at Honeybourne, and Halifaxes and later Lancasters operationally. He gives his opinion of Halifaxes and Lancasters and compares the two aircraft. He describes the radio equipment he used, his responsibilities and routine as a wireless operator. He recounts his ineptness with radar despite hours of training. Never experienced jamming of radar, but did jam German radar, by using Window. Tells of throwing window out of the aircraft. Schurman discusses preparation for and duration of trips. HE recalls the very thorough briefing and expresses admiration for the RCAF's intelligence gathering process. HE recounts his feelings immediately prior to his first trip, the routine and responsibilities of an average trip. Schurman recounts his trip to Chemnitz 6-70 miles from Dresden, the night Dresden was bombed. He did not realize how hard Dresden was going to be hit and could see the colour of the sky where Dresden was. He gives opinion of post-war interpretations of this history. He describes his longest trip to Schwarzenberg, Austria and flying mining runs on the North Sea. He relates a story of mining the Oslo fjord, Kiel harbour, and the tactics used by his pilot to avoid flak and searchlights. He discusses the dangers of Bomber command and feels that training accidents a result of insufficient. He mentions that his most harrowing experience which occurred in operational training unit at Honeybourne, and goes on to briefly describe a near-crash in a Halifax V. He describes the post-operational return to a squadron and the very thorough de briefing of crews by intelligence officers. He mentions the good luck of 409 squadron as they had very low loss rates while he was flying with them. He discusses on case of a inan who was sent away for lack of moral fibre. He reflects on how his crew kept up morale, and activities they did together as crew in their spare time. At the end of the war Schurman was given a choice of staying on to fight against the Japanese or going home. He mentions his participation in humanitarian missions to Brussels to fly ex-POWs home at the end of the war. He describes a photograph of wireless school, and points out survivors and casualties. He talks about books describing the unfortunate fate of a friend. The interview concludes with his reflection on how the war has shaped the way he lived his life and generational differences.
Keyword:: Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Military life, Command of troops, Canada--RCAF Station (Lachine, Quebec)--Manning Depot, 5, World War, 1939-1945--Aerial operations, Canadian, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Squadron, 409, Halifax (Bomber), Airplanes--Maintenance and repair, World War, 1939-1945--Military intelligence, Canada--RCAF Station (Fingal, Ont.)--Bombing and Gunnery School, 4, Bombers--Radar equipment, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force, Schwarzenberg (Austria), Radio--Transmitters and transmission, Airplanes--Radar equipment, Great Britain--Royal Air Force--Coastal Command, Airplanes--Ferrying, Vickers Wellington (Bomber), World War, 1939-1945--Aerial operations, British, Chemnitz (Germany), Radar--Interference, Humanitarian assistance, Canadian, Bombardiers, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Personal narratives, Military education, Radio operators, Radar operators, Radar--Military applications, Antiaircraft artillery, Navigation (Aeronautics), Radar confusion reflectors, Airplanes, Military--Radar equipment, Airplanes--Radio antennas, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Recruiting, enlistment, etc., Airplanes, Military--Maintenance and repair, RAF Honeybourne (England), British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, Airplanes, Military--Armament, Submarine mines, Wireless communication systems, Night fighter planes, Canada--RCAF Station (Guelph, Ont.)--Wireless School, 4, Military intelligence, World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Canadian, Flight radio operators, Schurman, Don, 1923- --Interviews, Mines (Military explosives), Radio, Military, Canada--Royal Canadian Air Force--Operational readiness, Great Britain--Royal Air Force--Bomber Command, Night and all-weather operations (Military aeronautics), Searchlights, Dresden (Germany)--History--Bombardment, 1945, Military missions, Antiaircraft guns, Deception (Military science), Navigation (Aeronautics)--Study and teaching, Air warfare, Airplanes--Radio equipment, Bombing, Aerial, Flight crews, Airplanes, Military--Accidents, and Lancaster (Bomber)
Subject:: World War (1939-1945), Military history, Canada. Royal Canadian Air Force, and Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor:: Schurman, Don, b. 1923 and Tumchewics, Louise
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-11-03
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Geographic Coverage:: Northern Ireland, Great Britain, and Canada
Coordinates:: 54.5, -6.5, 60.10867, -113.64258, and 54.75844, -2.69531
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: reminiscences, oral histories (literary genre), interviews, and sound recordings
Archival Item Identifier:: SD_763
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection

430. Brodsky, Kathleen: my Cold War recollections (November 6, 2007)

Title:: Brodsky, Kathleen: my Cold War recollections (November 6, 2007)
Description:: Interviewee: Brodsky, Kathleen, b. 1934, An interview/narrative of Kathleen Brodsky's experiences during the Cold War. Interview took place on November 6, 2007., ABSTRACT: Interview with Kathleen Brodsky 6 November 2007 (0:19) Born May 18th, 1934 London Ontario. Brother served in the Airforce in World War II, father was in the army in World War I. (1:17) Married husband at 18, husband already enlisted. (1:33) Family did not view military as positive element because that would mean she would be moving away. (2:06) First posting in Calgary, lived off-base. (3:24) Posted to London, ON where daughter is born, then to Petawawa. (5:06) No entertaining duties, social life revolved around the Mess. (6:07) Posted to Germany, sailed across with her two small girls through a mild hurricane. (8:13) Husband had a place waiting for them on arrival, not too concerned about money because dollar is worth 4 marks. (11:50) Cold War fears- evacuation plan. (15:46) No real entertaining- no dining room table. Would get together for tea with other wives. (20:00) Posted back to Canada, to Picton, and husband posted to Cyprus. (27:12) Daughter told at school that her father is not away, as Mrs Brodsky told her, but is dead. (29:06) Husband promoted, and single moves began without battalion. Posted to Chilliwack. (30:51) Worked for a year with BC Family Services in Chilliwack. (33:33)Husband sent to India and Pakistan for a year, she goes to visit, daughter is married while husband (her father) is away. (34:00) On return from India, husband is posted to Toronto, but after a brief stay, Kathleen returns to Victoria. (35:53) Husband posted to Royal Roads University, continues there after retirement. (37:52) Expectations of officer’s wife, she is “Mrs Husband’s Rank.”, and Interviewer: Hutchison, Sarah Beth
Keyword:: Housing--Ontario--Picton, Royal Roads University, Housing--Ontario--London, Housing--Ontario--Petawawa, Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Barracks and quarters, Soldiers--Family relationships, Families of military personnel--Services for, Brodsky, G. W. Stephen, Army spouses--Etiquette, Brodsky, Kathleen, 1934- --Interviews, Cold War--Personal narratives, Canadian, Canada--Canadian Forces Base (Lahr, Germany), United Nations--Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan, Officers' spouses, Military dependents, Army spouses, Families of military personnel, Retired military personnel, Families of military personnel--Housing, Canada--Canadian Army--West Germany, Children of military personnel, Canada--Canadian Forces Bace (Chilliwack, B.C.), Canada--Canadian Forces Bace (Petawawa, Ont.), and Canada--Canadian Armed Forces--Messes
Subject:: United Nations, Canada. Canadian Armed Forces, Military history, Soldiers, and Canada. Canadian Army
Contributor:: Brodsky, Kathleen, b. 1934 and Hutchison, Sarah Beth
Language:: eng
Date Created:: 2007-11-06
Rights Statement:: In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted
License:: This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
Resource Type:: http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/Sound
Extent:: 1 sound recording (MP3)
Geographic Coverage:: Canada and Germany
Coordinates:: 51.5, 10.5 and 60.10867, -113.64258
Additional Physical Characteristics:: Original sound recording (CDA) also available.
Physical Repository:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Collection:: Canadian Military Oral History Collection
Provider:: University of Victoria (B.C.). Library
Genre:: interviews, oral histories (literary genre), reminiscences, and sound recordings
Archival Item Identifier:: BK_742
Fonds Title:: Military oral history collection
Fonds Identifier:: SC141
Is_referenced_by:: Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/military-oral-history-collection
Date Digitized:: 2007-11-06
Technical Note:: Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 192 kbps and 44 kHz. Recorded in digital format by interviewer, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2007. Migration metadata by KD and MT.