Interviews with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams and Reuven Feuerstein
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The Mind of a Child
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AC 1 - LORNA WILLIAMS
GARY ... when you had first come here. When was that?
LORNA Um, in 1988 I, uh, was coming to study with Reuven, um,
at the Summer Institutes and so I decided to come three days
earlier so that I could acclimatize myself and not be so
tired when the courses began. And so to do that I stayed in
Tel Aviv thinking that it was a more modern, Western city,
that, uh, and I knew that Jerusalem was a, was really an
orthodox city and, um, so in a sense I wanted to prepare
myself to, you know, enter that world. And so, I arrived
and then the next morning I got up and just started walking,
walking, I was walking to, toward old _____ and this place
I’d, I’d read about, I recognized from, you know, all the
reading that I’d been doing in my teenage years. Cause for
some reason, during that time I was really, I was really
pulled to this, to this part of the world. And, um, so I
was walking along this street and just looking and listening
and, and to people and just trying to feel the, the energy
of the place and, um, I came across this boulevard that had
trees and so I started walking down, down it and then I came
to the place where, um, the, the, um, David Ben-Gurion had
announced the, the State of Israel, like when they became,
they became a, a country. So I went into the, I went inside
the, the Independence Hall, I think it was called and, uh, I
was the only person in there other than the curator who was
an older man who, um, was around during that time. And so I
was sitting in there, not saying anything, and, and I had
looked around and so I was just being really quiet and he
came over and we, he started to tell me what was there and
he started this, they had, um, they still had the original
radio broadcast and so he played it for me. And, uh, we
spent, oh about maybe four hours together. And, um, he was
explaining and it was so neat because, here was somebody,
you know, like I was thinking that, has probably brought you
know thousands and thousands of people through there but he,
he could still be really excited about, about this story.
And it was really moving, very moving for me because, um,
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when I was twelve and had finally really learned how to
read comfortably, I was reading a lot of stories from, from,
um, this area, this part of the world and, um, and I
remember that, that, and listening to the radio ... my Dad
and I used to listen to the radio quite, you know, quite
often and we’d talk about the things that was, things
happening around the world and so I remember the stories
about, about Israel and, um, and during those years, my
teenage years in Mount Currie, it really was, was a time
that I felt a real rapid change had, you know, like was
happening to our community and I remember in my younger
years, um, even though I ... in those younger years I’d
experienced residential school, but I still could remember
coming home and people still gathering in the winter time in
different peoples’ houses and, and people would move from,
you know, and different people would host in the, in the
evening and so people would come and they’d tell stories and
they’d sing and dance and, um, and it was such a, a warm and
nurturing time. Like for the community because they were
really, really wonderful evenings. You know, that people
spent together and, or they’d be planning dramas that they
would present, you know, to the rest of the community and so
they would do it during these times as well. And then all
of a sudden it seemed that the singing had stopped and, and
it just seemed to be so sudden. And, um, more people were,
and I think if I could trace it back, probably, um, it will
have been when alcohol was legalized and so people then were
able to go to the, to the bar and I think that that’s, that
the change, anyway, was traumatic. That, um, all of a
sudden, we weren’t a community any more. And, uh, because
the, the adults, you know, had just were at the bar every
weekend and um, I was left with the children. And, um, and
it was so frightening. It was so horrible. I didn’t know
what was, I didn’t really understand what was happening.
All I knew was that, that family and community were just
totally splitting. You know, like they were really
splitting. And, I guess slowly over the years I began to
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feel that, I feel really hopeless and to think that there,
there wasn’t any way out of this and, uh, and there didn’t
seem to be a desire, you know, to move out of it. And so
somehow, then, the, what was happening in the formation of a
country here, was, this captured my imagination cause I
thought that if people could lose everything, you know, like
the, like the Jews in, in Europe did and in North Africa and
that they could come and rebuild a life that made sense to
them, um, that surely then there was hope for us. That we
(unclear). We could do that, I guess, in the new time.
And the other thing was that, um, I had found out that
Hebrew had only been, was really a language, it was used
only in religious texts. That it was, that it was a
language that, um, and this I think was later on ... later
on when I started to look more at language. But, um, and I,
and there was a feeling that our language was lost. And
there was a feeling that our histories were lost. And there
was a feeling that our traditions and our world view(?) were
all gone, they were lost. And so there was such an intense
feeling of loss and so when I found out that, that this,
that Hebrew was becoming, was really, um, bringing it out
from a certain place and I knew that in our, um, in our
language there was also a certain place, a language for, uh,
spiritual purposes, there was a language for the, the really
high level of transformational stories that were told and
that were used and that this language was also used in, um,
oratory, like when people gathered and were passing on.
Transmitting, I guess, knowledge to the next generation,
about the territories, about history and, and so I knew that
there was that language and, um, I thought that, so I
equated that then, with Hebrew, because it, to me that was
also, like a religious language. It was, you know, it was,
it, in a sense carried the, the spirituality of the people
and, um, and, um, but in our case it seemed that both were
getting dimmer and dimmer in our, in our memory. I mean,
both the working language and this other language. And, um,
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and so when, when I found out what was happening with Hebrew
here, I did some research and I got, I was really excited
that, that then, language, the people from all different
cultures could come together, not speak a common language,
but to then create a common language. And so, um, and so in
a way, I guess what I saw was that, was what was really
necessary for us as, as, um, Lil’wat was that, that we too
had to, in a sense, recreate ourselves in the new time.
Like we couldn’t, um, shut out to the world, the rest of the
world any more. But that we had to have some control over
how we shaped it. And so that’s, anyway, that’s, um ...
it’s the whole, sort of, the two things that had happened in
our life and it was incredible for me to be sitting in this
room, that this actually occurred. You know, like ... ya.
GARY How is it that you came to be, do you have any memory of how
you came to be interested in the reading about Israel in the
first place, at twelve or thirteen?
LORNA It wasn’t about Israel. It was really, I was reading a
lot about, um, uh, I was living in North Vancouver with a
family and I wasn’t allowed to go out anywhere so I used to
go to the library and I’d just get stacks and stacks of
books and read, you know, a book a night. And I came across
one section in the library and I just was reading everything
that was on that, you know, in that section, so, and the
more that I read, the more I, interested I became. And
then, I think it was my brother in law, John, who, I think
gave me a book, gave me the book Exodus. Ya, when I was
about thirteen, so I read that. And, uh ...
GARY I think I read that when I was thirteen as well.
LORNA Did you? And, uh, but already, like in, listening to
the radio and my talks with my father, you know, it was
already something that was in there and I guess finding the
books focused more of my attention on it and then starting
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to read, like Exodus, then I just read everything that I
could get a hold of about people who, like, what happened to
people and so, you know, in Eastern Europe ... and, um, ya,
it’s horrible to find hope in, you know, like the horrible
things that were happening over there, but, um ... so that’s
...
GARY Do you remember the time, what sort of, what sort of hopes
that was triggering, what, do you remember from age of
thirteen, some of what you were describing to me sounded
like, when you’re dealing with language, it was a bit, you
were a bit older.
LORNA I was older. When I was, when, when I started to
really consider, um, I guess what they were doing with
Hebrew because, you know, because it, it was something I
knew that we had to do for ourselves. Uh, what was
happening? Uh, as I said, um, there was a really, like a
sudden shift in the community from, from really healthy
family and extended family and community times that people
were having to where every, I remember every Friday night
the, you know, our part of the village used to just empty of
adults and they’d go, you know, they’d all go to Pemberton
to the pub. And I remember, and I used to be left home with
children and, um ...
GARY Brothers and sisters?
LORNA Brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews. Because,
because in our family my sisters were much older. They
were already having families and, um, and so I remember, you
know, like being really afraid that, as twelve o’clock would
start to come and I’d know that the bar was closing, and,
um, and how frightening it was to have all these people
come, you know, and who were drunk and, um, and fighting,
you know, people would fight all night. And so it was a
real frightening time. And I used to, I used to wonder,
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like why, why is this happening and, um, I used to try to
understand. I’d, you know, I’d try to talk about it with,
with others, like, with anybody but, um ...
GARY Did your father have, you mentioned talking to him a bit
about Israel, did he already have a special interest in it.
Did you pick up something from him on that as well?
LORNA No, he used, we used to talk about it on the, during
the, usually during , um, Saturdays. I used to do the
cleaning and, and he’d sit by the radio and so we used to
both listen to the radio. And I’d talk about anything with
him. He was quite, in a way, a very quiet, a quiet man but
he was, he used to, he was really knowledgeable. And, um,
and so he’d listen, you know he’d listen to me rattle on
about anything. And, you know, and he’d, and then, if I
didn’t understand something I’d ask him and we’d talk about,
you know, we’d talk about it.
GARY Is there anything in particular, you were mentioning
hearing the radio broadcast, um, in the Independence Hall
and I’m wondering if there are any bits of that that really
resonated. Had you heard it before or there any parts
of ...
LORNA I’d heard some of it before, um, I think there was just
the, I, I don’t even really think that I was the words, it
was just the quality, the quality of the, of, um, Ben-
Gurion’s voice, like, this is something that he’d worked
for, worked for all his life and, uh ... it’s just something
that, like, that, that I felt ordinary like, kind of, um,
the people that he was, like, he was a very knowledgeable
man. You know, but he was to me an ordinary person who, you
know, like who had worked towards doing this and he had
accomplished it. Not alone, you know, but, uh, you know, he
inspired a lot of people to, um, to work together and I
think the other person, the other person who was, I think
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for me, my, um, uh, a real, um, model. Someone I thought
very highly of was Golda Meir. I’d read about her, um,
meetings around, around the table, you know, like around her
kitchen table and, um, so she was an inspiration always to
me. And so she was there and, um, she was also, she spoke
in the broadcast. Ya.
GARY Were there any particular qualities or things about her,
things that she did that you remember now, being absorbed in
or impressed by? I remember too and stuff, I was quite
young. She, I didn’t know that much about her. I don’t
think I’ve read as much as you.
LORNA Well what I, the story that I, that I knew, one of the
stories was when they were, um, they, they were creating,
really a country out of nothing. And they were always fund
raising and short of money for this and short of money for
that and, and, um, I remember her being sent to, to the
United States and she did-, she didn’t know what she was
going to say to people. She didn’t know how to fund raise.
You know, like never been part of any training, never her
training and so she really just went with this sense of, um,
uh, resolve, I guess. That this needed to be done and who
else could do it. She’s the only, you know, and so, um, I
can’t remember how much millions she came back to Israel
with ... ya. I guess I was thinking that, I’m similar to, I
mean I know that people probably wouldn’t like me to equate
what has happening on the reserves to what is happening
here, like on a larger scale, but, um, I remember thinking
that, uh, that the other similarity was that, um, like later
on, later on in my teenage years, people began to, to say
that, um, that things had really gone far enough, that, like
the, the destruction, like in our community, had gone far
enough and that the people who were working together, I
mean, they were fighting at all levels of Government and
National and International trying to stop the policies that
you know, that really, that were driving us further and
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further away from who we, you know, like who we were. Um,
and so, and so I thought if they can, if they can, you know,
create something out of what they faced and out of ...
GARY Can you be a bit more explicit about who “they” are?
LORNA Oh, um ...
GARY Just to mention Israel and that kind of thing just in
case we ...
LORNA Ya, that the people who ... um, the people who were
making a life here in Israel, I guess if they could do it,
um, you know with lands that were, with really very little
land and very little land that seemed to be, you know, not,
not, um, arable, you know, not usable. But through their
own ... and, like they didn’t have any money, they didn’t
have, they had, um, they had expertise in that they had
professional people but I know they didn’t have, um,
agriculturists, for example and so they had to learn
everything as they went along, as well. And, um, and so I
could see that they used whatever they had and, you know,
they had a vision, they had, you know, like they had
something that, that they were trying to do for themselves
so I thought that in Mount Currie, we, we were doing the
sa-, you know, like in a way, we were doing the same thing.
That we had nothing left, really and, um, of, of our lands,
of the resources and it seemed as though in every, in every,
uh, way we turned, you know, there was a block, either by,
um, you know, Federal Government policy or Provincial
Government policy, you know, that, um, and so that the
people in Mount Currie had, had to find, I guess, resources
within themselves, you know. We had to find something
within ourselves to, to establish a, a life for ourselves,
you know, like what seemed like nothing.
GARY It came close to almost nothing left.
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LORNA Ya.
GARY Scary place.
LORNA Very scary. Very scary. Like it’s, um, to, because
what you are fighting really is something that’s really
important to humans. And that is that the belief that you
can, that the future can be optimistic. Ya, because once
you, I think if you let yourself, like be pessimistic, you
know, to, to view the futures with pessimism, then you don’t
have the strength and the resolve any more so ... to face
the challenges and the adversity. Ya.
GARY Did you see that kind of pessimism in Mount Currie?
LORNA Ya. Ya.
GARY How did it show up? What did you feel?
LORNA I guess during that time I was thinking more, like I
was wrestling a lot more with the, with the apathy. The
people just seemed to be so apathetic, that, you know, that
this is our lot in life and this is it. You know. That
we’ve lost all of those, that, of our traditions, and our
way of life, our songs, dances and, um, and, uh, all of the
trapping ter-, and hunting territories. Um, and it felt
like, you know, um, and I was seeing, I guess, the, the
generation of my older brother, the, and especially the men.
Like they just seemed to give, had given up. And, um, and
they weren’t the same, they didn’t have, well I shouldn’t
say that ... I could still see in them, glimpses of the
strength of the men that, um, like I said, I saw in, in my
uncle and my father. You know, in some of those people.
The men. But the younger men just seemed to have given up,
given up on, um, being participants in the community and,
um, and so I was wondering like, and I could see that the
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women (CLEARS THROAT) that the women were, uh, that there
were still some really powerful women. Like who really
kept, if it wasn’t for them, I knew that, you know, we
would, would’ve just, it would have been, um, we might as
well have just laid down and died. You know, like there
was, but even so ... um, you know, it was really the apathy
I guess. Feeling that there was, that there was nothing we
could do. Mm mm.
GARY Did this get inside of you at times back then? How did you
deal with this surrounding you? It must have been really
hard dragging ...
LORNA Ya, it was, it was really difficult. Um, as I said, I
used to, l lived in fear of, the twelve, of midnight on the
weekends. And sometimes I’d have all these children for,
you know, the, and their parents would have disappeared for,
you know, three and four days at a time and, um, but I think
that, um, I don’t know what it was that ... I was. I was, I
was frightened, I was, I felt powerless, you know, really,
to make to, make changes. But, um, I don’t, I really don’t
know other than, than I think it was because I had the
opportun-, I’d had the opportunity to have experienced that
other life, you know, like, to know that, that sense of
community, that, um, and also to, because I had, um, and
because of my family. I mean, that’s the only thing I can
think of, why, like I didn’t also just give up. You know.
Ya.
GARY We talk some more of this, about this up in Mount Currie
sometime. imagine, coming from here to there.
LORNA Ya, well sometimes when you’re travelling you think
more, I think you learn more, like, as you, I don’t know.
What I’ve noticed is that I’ve learned more when I’ve
travelled away and then I go back.
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GARY Interesting too finding yourself in Tel Aviv and where was
it, where did all that take place ...
LORNA In Tel Aviv? In Independent ... I think it’s called
it’s called Independence Hall. I mean, I just, I, I wasn’t
even expecting, I ... no, that’s not true. I had in mind I
knew that there was this place had existed. Had existed. I
read somewhere that they had kept the film and the, the
radio broadcasts from, you know, from that time. And, um,
but, but, um, so I was in, just wandering around in Tel Aviv
and I came, and I came upon ...
GARY 1948 actually.
LORNA Ya, ‘48.
GARY Could you talk some more about, you were referring to having
a high language of, a transformational language that was
going to be brought into common use and the power of that.
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, what you
mean ..
LORNA By that?
GARY Ya. About what, where was the parallel? What were you
trying to bring back in and what power that may have.
That’s what I’m sensing behind that discussion.
LORNA Well, I knew that there was, um, I knew that there was
an every day language, like a common language that people
spoke but I also knew that there was another, a whole other
language. I don’t know enough about it, um, that would be
used during the times when the people gathered together, you
know, the big, big, the big gatherings and people would
stand up and, and they would talk on a subject and they’d
talk for maybe an hour or two hours, sometimes three and
four hours. And, um, um, and so they would use this other
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language. And that there were, and so that they would tell
these stories that, of, um, like I said, these were our
history, our stories that, um, that would be passed, you
know, from one generation to another. And the stories were,
there many stories that were told about, about creation and
about transformation and, um, and, um ... there was a time
in our history I guess, that, um, there were, there was a
group, there was, there were beings that were, um, called
transformers. And they could change themselves into
anything. And um, uh, and so those are the, those are the
stories that would be told. Because that was, they had
reached like a certain level of power that, you know, that
we weren’t reaching. And, um ...
GARY That you could reach or that it was possible for ...
LORNA It was possible. And, um, I guess what the connection
what I was making was that I thought that our language was
no longer a living language. I think, I think that that’s,
and so none of our language is a living la nguage. Our
every day language, our, you know, like that, the language
of the oratory and teaching language was not, was no longer
living because there were so few people left that seemed to,
who could speak it and, um, and so even though I knew that
in Mount Currie we were much fortunate than other people
because, um, even though we were close to a major urban
center, we had, we retained longer our, you know, our, our
language and culture than other traditions, than others,
than some other groups and, so the connection with Hebrew
is, is only that. You know, that, um, that people who spoke
many languages, you know, I mean the, the people who moved
to, who came to Israel, they spoke Polish, Ukrainian,
German, you know, English, French, um, and hundreds of other
languages. And so here they were, they came here and, um,
and they had this language, it was used for spiritual
purposes that they, that they, that, that, that this
language was revived and the revival of this language
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unified them and so that they could create in a sense an
identity for themselves. That, um, you know, that was co-,
something that was common to them all.
GARY From your memory of stories and things you were told, did
you listen to many stories in the language when you were
young or were you, if you were told stories,
transformational stories, stories from the past, would that
have been told to you in English or in ...
LORNA No, in our, in our language.
GARY So are there, just curious, looking at that ability to
transform yourself a bit, which you, you’ve done a lot of,
something that’s really drawn you in and you’ve moved a lot
towards transformation, I’m wondering if the stories or
transformers or events of transformation that where the
concept and the feeling and the strength of it, you know,
not so much in English but in the language. Stories that
you remember. Are there even words. I was thinking about
it when you were sitting here and so the, sort of the
unification that comes out of that language is very powerful
and I was just wondering, and in order to continue to share
that, you have to keep the language alive and just wondering
if there was an example, almost, of a concept or a term that
you would want to keep alive in your own culture because of
its unique strength and its ability to kind of summon up so
much. I don’t even know if it’s something that is easy to
talk about in English, but, whether there are any examples
of that that come to mind. I’m just kind of fishing based
on a kind of an insight, a flash that I got during our
conversation. This transformation seems to be part of the
whole seam of our whole exploration here, in a way. It just
struck me when you ___ the words.
LORNA Well I think that, um, mmm ... I’m having a hard time
to think, I can think about snippets, but I, and so, I’d
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have to spend more time thinking about it because...
GARY We can come to this another time too I mean ...
LORNA The early transformation stories that I’ve told that,
um, as a preteen, um, so, then because of the, the way that
the stories work, in, amongst our people is that, um, the
stories that are told in a sense, go according to your
development and so, um, so the time that I, I guess I would
have been there, in, there in the community, the, my aunt
and my uncle were telling, telling us a lot of the stories
and so some stories would have been told to my brothers and
so other stories would have been told to me. And, um, but I
didn’t , I don’t think I heard them as much as I needed to
hear them in order for them to really settle into my memory.
But the stories that, um, I guess that, that at the level
that I was in my development, like in my age chronology, um,
the stories that were beginning to happen were the coyote
stories. You know, which coyote, um, could change himself
into whatever he wanted and, and the dilemma is I guess that
he would find himself in, like because of these, because of
the way he, you know, the changes that he made in himself.
And so, for example, one of his characteristics which is
also a human characteristic is that he would sometimes get
so over engrossed in something, you know, and be really
involved, but only in one small part of, like a larger
picture, and he’d lose himself in there. And then, you
know, and then, as a, as a result, something would happen to
him and so, then he’d have to get himself out of. You know,
so he’d suffer the natural consequences and then have to get
himself out of it. And then, and so I remember hearing
like a lot of those stories about coyote getting him-, so
you know, like, because he would be so over focused, you
know like in one part of whatever, whatever he was trying to
create for himself or else he would, or else he was, um,
um ... or else he was really, um, he’d, he was really greedy
and, or he’d be really greedy and he’d lose himself in the
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greed, in his greed and then, of course, forget everything,
you know, everything else around, so it seemed that those
were, at that time, those were a lot of the stories. And
there was a concept that I had a hard time understanding. I
still don’t really fully understand it and, and again it was
a coyote story. And, um, so coyote was standing on one side
of the, this patch of land and the people were, were working
on the land and, I don’t know, harvesting I think ... and so
coyote said, um, to, and so it’s a word called another ...
“an other one”, but it’s, but I don’t really, I can’t, I
could never understand it, if it was another coyote or
another, um, form that could, you know, like another, um,
being that could transform itself, so it wasn’t, I know that
it wasn’t a coyote, but it was a similarity in another form,
like in another stage. And so, like it, in the story, they
could just say well, another coyote and I remember hearing
like, um, how do you, what is the term ... uh ... it’s a,
it’s a term that was, that I know has special, that has
special meaning and I still don’t fully understand what it
was, but anyways, he says to this other one, that, um ...
GARY So this other one appears, is that it?
LORNA Appears and comes, and they’re standing there. And I’m
just, I try and say it, this word to mean an other one ...
but it has another meaning which I don’t know.
GARY So what would be the sentence in the language then?
LORNA I’m trying to think. I’m trying to think of that word
that was used, um ... he says, to, um, he said, I can walk
from here to, and cross this field and they, and those
people won’t see me and so he’s challenged so that the other
one says, um, you know, go ahead and so he transforms him,
so he starts, he transforms himself into something else and
walks and the people see him. But the other one, um, and so
then they, you know, like they throw stones at the coyote
PAGE - AC 1
The Mind of a Child
Face to Face Media Ltd.
AC 1 - LORNA WILLIAMS
and, and he runs yelping away. And then the other one, um,
moves along, goes along and of course, the people don’t see
him because think he’s a spirit being, so he’s not, it’s the
spirit of the coyote and so of course, they don’t see it.
So just, there’s just like, I can, just snippets, I can
remember.
GARY Cause that’s interesting, they would be puzzling on how to,
as a kid, how do you, the stories telling, images coming up
and there’s an image that you can’t quite know how to
imagine almost. Ya.
LORNA Only didn’t know how to imagine, but also how to convey
that idea. You know, like ... in another language.
GARY It’s interesting.
PAGE - AC 1
Audio cassette consists of an interview with Reuven Feuerstein in Jerusalem on side A, and an interview with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams in Israel on side B. On side A, Feuerstein discusses the events leading up to the establishment of the International Center for the Enhancement of Learning Potential (ICELP), including the establishment of the Hadassah-WIZO Canada Research Institute; as well as other initiatives. On side B, Wanosts’a7 recounts her experiences and memories associated with Israel; the effects of alcohol and apathy on the sense of community in Mount Currie; the parallels she sees in the struggles for survival between the people having to rebuild community, culture, and language in Israel and the Lil̓wat7úl on the reserves in Mount Currie; and traditional “transformation” stories, particularly those associated with the coyote, and the nature of the language used to tell and pass down these stories.
- In Collection:
- Audio cassette: AC01
- 01:17:20
- A: Ami and Reuven in Jerusalem Forest. R. recounts events leading to Int’l Centre.; B: Lorna talks about Independence hall, early memories of Israel, survival, language.
- 31.5, 34.75
- 50.31667, -122.71667
- 31.76904, 35.21633
- 1 audio cassette : analog, stereo
- Lorna Wánosts’a7 Williams Face to Face Media Collection
- Digitized in collaboration with the Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
- Accession Number: 2017-057, Item: 2017-057-008-001
- Special Collections Finding Aid: https://search.archives.uvic.ca/face-to-face-media-fonds
- July 8, 2020
- A transcript of side B were created by Face to Face Media for use during post-production and have been provided unedited.Digitized by the The MediaPreserve. Metadata by Matt Innes.
- Rights
- This material is made available on this site for research and private study only.
- DOI
