Veronneau, Jean: my armed forces recollections (October 29, 2008)
PublicAn interview/narrative of Jean Veronneau's recollections on the formation of the Canadian Armed Forces. Interview took place on October 29, 2008.
ABSTRACT: Brigadier General Jean Veronneau Veronneau_J_0564_01.mp3 0:05 Introduction of interviewee "Only Unified Officer." Served in all three elements. 1:03 Unique perspective on Unification. 2:08 Canadian Forces were not developing a unified product. 2:24 Anybody who agreed with Unification was a threat to those who did not. 2:45 Joined the Navy. History of naval career. 5:30 Happy in the navy. "Best flying I ever did; most demanding but also the most rewarding." 5:58 By 1968 unification was a "fait acomplie", "we were aware that we were going to become… we were going to be transferred to the pilots list. Many of us were looking forward to that." 6:25 The Carrier was going to be scrapped. 6:41 The naval aviation would be strictly destroyer. That would considerably cut down the quality of aviation. 7:10 Change from a/c carrier to destroyer aviation tactics. 8:40 Anti-Submarine tactics. 9:40 Aware of changes to capabilities. As an LCdr, was too high in rank to qualify for interesting jobs. 10:25 Options of choosing another naval job or remaining a pilot. 10:40 A product of decommissioning Bonaventure not of unification. 10:52 "People, like me, who wanted to stay in aviation, then unification was a godsend." 11:35 Isolation from other naval officers. 12:15 People were very fearful Competition between Naval aviation and Air Force. 13:00 The dangers and difficulty of Naval Aviation. 14:04 Army Staff College. 14:30 Awareness that army had planned to create an aviation group. 15:20 Makeup of Naval Aviation groups. Army's aviation make up. (Armour and Artillery; L19s) Type of use and training. 17:35 Army had no aviation structure. Were hoping to make one like the Americans Not said but realized. 18:20 Army Staff College class. What took place in school. Aimed at strategic "war schooling". 20:17 Only two Naval Officers; Transport and Pilot Only two Air Force Officers; Fighter pilots 21:18 Navy had a surplus of pilots, maintenance crews; could fill Army vacancies. 21:51 "There was a job for me". 21:16 "I could be a part of that new direction". 23:20 "the army was paying attention" 23:38 Cleared up his Navy-Army-Air force transformation. 24:45 When did all aviation become Air force? Gradually 25:05 10 Tactical Air Group (10 TAG). Army aviation air group, filled with airmen, but an army formation. 25:20 10 TAG make up, Veronneau's involvement and creation. 29:01 Unification happened but not enough uniforms. Stayed in Blues until 1970. Phase in process. 30:00 Working with Army and associated as Army Pilot. 31:29 10 TAG transferred to Air force, 1970(?) 32:00 No inkling to have an air command: Individual element would have control over their own aviation group. 32:50 LGen Carr persuaded (1969?1970) the CDS that the air force needed its own grouping. The Air force would be better to control all air groups. The CDS agreed. 33:51 Air Command would be formed in Winnipeg. "It would be responsible for all aviation in Canada". Other air organizations would come under the Air force. 34:40 10 TAG would be transferred too. 35:15 "The Army made me responsible to protect their interests" "Now loyalty had shifted" 36:17 Maintenance of identities still existed. 37:50 1980: Task Force on Review of Unification of the Canadian Forces 39:20 Review group. Asked to serve on group. (Veronneau showed interviewer a picture of the group.) Review report in three months. 40:25 He was aware of task group. Did not report, knew of other people who testified to the committee. No one was aware of their conclusion. 41:50 If you had been asked to testify what would you have said? What were your feelings? "I was a Sr. officer by then. I knew about budgets". 42:58 "I knew we were straining our recourses; we were absolutely running on a dime. We were rusting out." 43:57 Would you have reported that the budget problems were a product of Unification? " I would have reported that we had no choice." Unification was needed. 44:44 "The idea that we could go back to three services; the idea that we could have survived without creating a infrastructure that could be sustained at less cost […] there was no more discussion. This doesn't mean that there wasn't people who wanted to argue." 45:24 "To me I had long come to the conclusion that we were stuck with Unification." "I'm not saying unification, per se, was a good thing". The reality of the size of the Canadian Forces, however, demanded it. 48:20 How were you selected for the review group? Bilingual. Air Force member . A 'unified" officer. Gen Withers (?) was CDS and knew Veronneau's work or remembered him. 51:50 A good reputation. 52:10 Review group. Not there to write a report or to be impartial. 52:20 Author of "Identity" Section of Review Group on The Report of the Task Force on Unification of the Canadian Forces. (This is the document he refers to on tape- also he has answered some questions via email prior to this interview, which were submitted to Special Collections with the interview.) 55:22 Did not recommend reverting to distinct uniforms. (There is an elephant analogy. Veronneau is holding a poster with an Elephant and his recommendations on it. This is also submitted with the interview.) 57:00 Not separate elements. The majority of CF members are support trades which work in any situation. If they were dressed in a uniform but working with members of another they will be "ostracized". 59:15 "We were convinced that unification would succeed better more quickly and the links that would be formed would be more tenacious if we were all in the same colour of uniform." "we could do all kinds of things with that uniform" such as badges but the core of the uniform 1:00:00 "I am convinced that because we went to three uniforms that today we have to pay thousands of dollars to ask people to reenlist." 1:01:00 Education of sailors and soldiers. 1:01:48 I have a gut feeling that I have been proven right in the long run." 1:02:00 Loss of team cohesion 1:02:37 Post-Report (1985) ostracizeation of Veronnneau 1:04:17 Navy and Air force determination to remove Unification. "They were determined to colour the Navy dark blue". 1:05:14 Exiled to Washington for three years. Colleagues (points to a picture of the Review Group) are promoted, but his career end at BGen. Not because people were unhappy with the report, but rather a dissatisfaction with Veronneau's stance on "identity" and Unification especially from his Superiors in the Air force. 1:07:05 "A lot of people spoke as if they were supporting Unification, but they conducted themselves, and a day to day basis, to the detriment of Unification." 1:07:10 Command and Control of Navy and Army means they have control of all assets including aviation. The Air force lacks the strategic control; it only has a "mission". "It is a support organization […] meant to support the Navy the Army and NORAD." 1:09:57 Except Air transport and training facilities. "Like a landlord providing facilities." 1:10:17 "So if there is one organization that should develop officers that are adequate and involved and committed to working with the navy and to working with the army and the Americans with NORAD[…] it should be the air force. Because that is their 'raison d'etre'… but there is nothing in the air force structure that allows that." No Command and Control No High level school 1:12:45 Management schools but no command schools. 1:13:40 nothing at the Maj, LCol, Col and Gen level. 1:14:00 Therefore the Air force's General staff are lacking a strategic skill set. They rise through ranks in only once service. They do not have the necessary experience to command at the highest levels. 1:15:00 At the Col level "that's where the buck stops". 1:15:40 above that only ignorance to conditions, demands and difficulties. 1:16:45 "what they [Air force staff] wanted to do was isolate themselves, to pursue there own interests in area which were of minimal, minimal, resource for the Armed Forces. It might have looked good to them for the Air force […] but for their colleagues in the Army and the Navy who had helicopters falling out of the sky [it was of no use]. Results of this are the current affairs of the Canadian Forces. Including air transport in Afghanistan. 1:19:35 Not fair to just blame the government. You need a staff that is able to know the conditions and is supportive of the Navy and the Army rather then just selfish interests. To not means you do not get "Sea King" Helicopters. 1:21:18 If the Armed Forces had made a virtue of unity as opposed to an exception" then Unification would have been more successful. 1:22:01 Praise for Gen Hiller. Description of the responsibilities of the CDS 1:22:41 The 'civilianization' of HQ. "People may be in uniform, but they are thinking like civilians. They are forgetting that what it is all about is war preparation." 1:22:30 Veronneau offers his strategic viewpoint of war and Iraq situation. (Interviewers note: As Veronneau was concluding and was packing up he began discussing his work on the "Identity" section of the Review Group on The Report of the Task Force on Unification of the Canadian Forces. He began again talking about the report and how its release affected his career. He ask that the tape be shut off so that he might speak more candidly and off the record. The recorded interview ends there.)
Interviewee: Veronneau, Jean
Rank: Brigadier-General.
Interviewer: Bienvenu, Kyle
- In Collection:
- 1 sound recording (MP3)
- 38.89511, -77.03637
- 33, 66
- Original sound recording (MP3) also available.
- Canadian Military Oral History Collection
- VJ_564
- Special Collections Finding Aid: https://uvic2.coppul.archivematica.org/military-oral-history-collection
- November 24, 2009
- Digital sound recording in .mp3 format at 56 kbps and 24 kHz. Digitized by JF, technical and cataloguing metadata provided by JF and JP. Interview recorded in digital format for UVic Special Collections in 2009. Migration metadata by KD and MT.
- Rights
- This interview has been posted with the understanding that it may be used for research purposes only. Should the interviewee or their heirs have any objections to this interview being accessible on the Internet, it will be removed promptly. Contact UVic Special Collections for permission if using for other than research purposes: speccoll@uvic.ca
- DOI
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