WEBVTT



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Evan Taylor: On excellent yes that's going now. Okay.



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Evan Taylor: Great. I can see you. Great. Your friend very nicely. Thank you. That's good.



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Evan Taylor: So thank you so much for agreeing to do to do an interview here and this is a, it's a great

honor for me to get to interview you. One of those



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Evan Taylor: One of those folks that was, you know, paving the way when I was first first coming up

myself. So I was I'm so glad to be able to get you on the list.



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jgreen: Thank you. Well, it's you know, it's just



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jgreen: A matter of timing.



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Evan Taylor: Well, it's, it's also I mean the whole the what we're doing here in history is like it's a matter

of timing, you know, the



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Evan Taylor: Point in history that will never have again where we have folks who knew about what's

going on, we're organizing before the internet and, you know, we'll never get these you know those.

That's true.



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jgreen: Yeah, just the other day I got, I was on a list of Portland area business people are at, you know,

activists working in the business arena and Portland.



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jgreen: Somebody was advertising a production of I, in my own wife, which is the play about Charlotte

von malls Dorf



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Evan Taylor: I don't know who that is.



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jgreen: You don't know who that is. Oh. Well Charlotte von Miles Dorf you should you should look up

the book, I am my own wife.



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jgreen: And there's also a film made by Rosa on primetime from Berlin.



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jgreen: That is of this by the same title that is absolutely phenomenal and



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jgreen: Basically they were promoting this play, and



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jgreen: It occurred to me that



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jgreen: You know they were talking about why you should see this play. It's really, it's a one man show.

It's really incredible. It's about Charlotte vitamin store who killed her father and the Nazi era and lived

lived completely crushed stressed and her entire life and



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jgreen: You know, ran an antique in Teach store and just live through the whole Nazi thing.



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jgreen: Wow cross dressed



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Evan Taylor: All my goodness.



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jgreen: Yeah, and I actually met her.



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jgreen: In and I and I responded to this email. I said, well, it's great. They're putting this play on and tell

them, look, which is a little tiny town on the coast of Oregon and which I think the theater holds

probably fewer than 50 people in the audience.



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Evan Taylor: Okay, it's



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jgreen: Tiny and and I said, it's really great that they're putting this production honest and I was

privileged to meet Charlotte fun mall store.



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jgreen: In Berlin, a few years before she died and and she was, she was actually the most



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jgreen: Feminine and completely composed person I have ever met. Hmm, was astounding.





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Evan Taylor: All shouldn't have to be to make it



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Yeah.



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jgreen: And, but, you know, she's not she wasn't like glamorous, or you know anything. This is just



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jgreen: A woman.



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jgreen: And



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Evan Taylor: managed to survive that.



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jgreen: Yeah, and you know, no response from all the people on this list, who I know you know like

nobody had a response. And I'm thinking,





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jgreen: It probably kept no idea what to say. Um, yeah. And it's and i and i did occur to me, you know,

we are in this sort of period where I mean I've missed meeting Harry Benjamin by a year. Wow.



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jgreen: And



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jgreen: And I know a lot of people who knew him well but



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jgreen: You know, it's, it's, we're really, it's true. There's a lot of people who did a lot of things before

there was an internet and who



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jgreen: Who made a big effort to change trans lives before we really had the language for it. And those

people are fading very, very rapidly. Huh.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah well that's a bit in this doing the this project. It was one of those things that we know

we have to decide what do we, what do we want to focus on. And we just said, we're just going to focus

on whoever has the oldest memories possible. That's what, that's that's that's the focus



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Okay.



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jgreen: No.



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Evan Taylor: Not necessarily based on people's age based on how long they've been around.



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Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: So, how we usually start off, I ask you a bunch of demographic questions just for the, for

the record of an oral history.



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Evan Taylor: When folks, you're missing.



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Evan Taylor: 100 years or whatever.



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Evan Taylor: And then we'll get into more the



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Fun conversational



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Evan Taylor: And so just for the record.



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Evan Taylor: We are here today. It is just after 10 O'clock AM Pacific Standard Time. My name is Evan

Taylor and here in Vancouver and I'm interviewing Jamison green. And where are you located today,

James.



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jgreen: I'm in Vancouver, Washington.



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Evan Taylor: Oh, to Vancouver. It's good for us.



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Evan Taylor: And and you go, he is him pronouns.





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jgreen: As do. Yes, that's correct.



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Evan Taylor: And how old are you, today 7171 for the record. Not even close to the oldest person I've

interviewed



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Evan Taylor: Good.



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Evan Taylor: Were you born



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jgreen: I was born in Oakland, California.



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Evan Taylor: And where do you live now.



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jgreen: Vancouver, Washington.





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Evan Taylor: And how long have you lived there.



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jgreen: little over two years. Okay.



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Evan Taylor: And complex. A question for you. Are you employed I retired and what was your work.



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jgreen: Well as I'm still working a little bit



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jgreen: For my sort of career career. I was a publications manager and a technical writer. I have a master

Fine Arts degree in creative writing



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jgreen: Which I earned in 1972 and i i wanted to parlay that into and when i mean i wanted to work as a

writer and I happen to just sort of fall into this timing for the whole technological



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jgreen: Explosion. Right. And so I was able to do fairly well in that arena.





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jgreen: My last corporate position. I was Vice President. No, I wasn't. Vice President, I wasn't vice

president of one company, my last corporate position. I was



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jgreen: Director of technical publications for visa me



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jgreen: But I worked for Sun Microsystems, I worked for



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jgreen: Which is where I worked when I transitioned. I work for North Star computers. I worked for

Cooper laser Sonics documenting medical



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jgreen: medical technologies.



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jgreen: Late surgical lasers and and



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jgreen: Ultrasound and interact killer microsurgery



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Evan Taylor: Yeah.



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jgreen: So I learned a lot and I learned a lot about talking to doctors



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jgreen: Mm hmm. That particular job.



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Evan Taylor: And that's come in handy over the years.



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jgreen: Who has very much so. Very much so.



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Evan Taylor: And I know you've completed a PhD. Yes.



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jgreen: Yes.





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Evan Taylor: And where was that what was that



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jgreen: I took a PhD in law equalities law at Manchester Metropolitan University. I studied with Stephen

whittle and I haven't thought, I'm the first American and the eighth person in the world with a PhD in

law specializing in transgender and transsexual issues.



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Evan Taylor: Wow.



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Evan Taylor: I'd like I not for the purpose of today, but I want to get a list of those other seven



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jgreen: I don't know who they are there. They were all students have Steven. So, though.



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Evan Taylor: I was



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jgreen: The only Professor OB qualities law in the world.



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Right, so you could



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Evan Taylor: Have students who profession list.



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Evan Taylor: Right smart. Okay, and you have any visible or invisible disabilities that you live with.



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jgreen: Yeah, since 2016 I've lost the use of these two fingers.



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jgreen: Like you know there's I can move them, but I can't open my hand and my manual dexterity is

gone to shit.



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Evan Taylor: Is that does that relate to a particular illness or



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jgreen: Don't know it's just I had some



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jgreen: intense pain in the brachial plexus in my left side which is underneath the shoulder blade alone

or big nerve bundle and I just thought, oh, you know, it's a sore muscle or whatever.



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jgreen: And



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jgreen: I was actually it's it hit me the day before I was leaving for



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jgreen: Kazak stand at the request of the US Embassy here to meet with the, the Office of the



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jgreen: Kurdistan.



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jgreen: Medical people. What is it the



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jgreen: What did they call their Minister health minister. OK, so the Health Minister, I was supposed to

meet with them about their very barbaric treatment of trans people. And this was arranged by the

embassy. Right. And so I wasn't going to not go



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jgreen: Right and



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jgreen: You know, so I you know basically faded away the pain did after a few days and then



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jgreen: After I after I returned, I was just woke up one morning with no use my fingers couldn't open my

hand.



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jgreen: Very weird very weird. So I've been to neurologists, I've been to hand surgeons. I've been to

nerve centers. I've been, you know, all kinds of stuff and



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Evan Taylor: No one knows what it is.



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jgreen: Well, there's a syndrome called parsonage Turner syndrome.





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jgreen: That my symptoms.



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jgreen: Pretty much correspond with but not entirely. Okay. And there's no cure.



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jgreen: It's just nerve.



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jgreen: Just the thing that often. Yeah. And so I have low I have less



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jgreen: Muscle in my forearm, it's like all faded away because it's not getting



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Evan Taylor: Stimulated used right it's really awful.



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jgreen: I can't play musical instruments anymore. It really messes up my typing.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And



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jgreen: It's very, very frustrating and i i realized i I'm right handed, but I reached for everything with my

left hand.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah, you don't realize how much you use it until it's not there to us anymore.



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Evan Taylor: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.



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jgreen: Well that's why that and I also have. I also have



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jgreen: Life threatening allergy to peanuts.



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Evan Taylor: Is that a lifelong was, I don't want that.



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jgreen: That is lifelong and when I was young, I had the same reaction to eggs and anything with eggs in

it, and I could start, I was able to start eating eggs. When I was 51 years old.



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jgreen: So now, breakfast is my favorite meal but um but that that disability, which is quite invisible was

pretty traumatic in many respects.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And I effected me greatly. And in and it's another way in which I learned to talk to

doctors



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jgreen: To stand up for myself, because you know it's people would got



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jgreen: It wouldn't believe that I had this allergy and that people were dismissive all the time. And I just,

I just had to stand up for myself in order to get care.



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jgreen: Many times he ought to be treated properly by adults. I mean, going to a kid's birthday party

traumatic incident egg age six kids birthday party here have a piece of cake, no thank you have a piece

of cake. No, thank you. I can't



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jgreen: Everybody eats cake, eat a piece of cake in a strange giant adult that I don't know yelling at me

eat the cake. No, thank you. I cannot eat the cake. I'm allergic to eggs.



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jgreen: eat the cake. What kind of child are you



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Evan Taylor: Allergic child.



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jgreen: What kind of child are you yeah I was traumatizing. I'm telling you, because I was a shy kid.



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Mm hmm.



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Evan Taylor: Wrong with you that you just, you know, your own health issues.



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jgreen: Right.



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Evan Taylor: I can see how that I can see all that mirrors later on in life where you're able to say it's

actually not. There's something wrong with me as a person I know my body. I know my health issues. I

need treatment right



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jgreen: I had the same issue come up when I had appendicitis. Mm hmm. I was dismissed and I think it

was because the doctor that I



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jgreen: Had been seeing it. He asked me what I did for a living. And at that time I was a construction

cable splicer I was the first woman construction cable splicer for Pacific Northwest bell



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jgreen: Okay, and it was, you know, really unusual and he laughed when I said what you know when I

answered this question he laughed and I said you know that's not funny. That's a real job. Yeah. And he

goes, and, you know,



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jgreen: This dismissive. And then he says well you just have the flu. Don't worry about it. So, you know,

eat.



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jgreen: Soda Crackers and clear broth and



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jgreen: You'll be fine in a few days. So a week later when I end up



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jgreen: On my PC room.



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Evan Taylor: Wow. Yeah. That's a long time. I decided to treat it. Yep.



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jgreen: And at the same they call the same doctor in middle of night and



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jgreen: And he's like, they're examining the. And by this time. My stomach is so distended that you can

press anywhere and it hurts, right.



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jgreen: They can't they can't see it can't feel the appendix in the right spot. So there you know. Finally, a

nurse says, well, have you tried a white blood cell count.



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jgreen: Well, let's do that. Okay, so then they come back, they say, oh, it's definitely appendicitis.



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jgreen: And they just start prepping me for surgery and



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jgreen: The doctor comes in and says, so is there anything that you did. I should know about that might

impact your, your healing you know post-operatively and I said it's, you know, a certain thing that's that

bother is bothering you. And I said, yeah, you



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jgreen: Like what I said yeah you treat me like shit and I'm a human being and I'm as good a human

being as you are.



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Evan Taylor: And what year was this



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jgreen: 1973



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Evan Taylor: Okay, see this is a this is an doctors were not used to being talked to in that way. At that

time, right. How did this go over



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jgreen: Well, he was he was really shocked and





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jgreen: And



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jgreen: And he was very apologetic and and and forever after that and I only probably saw him about, I

don't know, four or five more times in my whole life, but



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jgreen: Every time I saw him, he was, he treated me like I was his ex college roommate and we were

best friends. I mean, it was this, you know, he's pretty amazing.



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Evan Taylor: Maybe a little over the top, but very consciously done



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jgreen: Yes, yes. I think he learned something.



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Evan Taylor: It's about sounds. It sounds like at least with you.



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Evan Taylor: I'm sure you marry that to other people as well.



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jgreen: And also, but



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jgreen: He also bought one of my photographs



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jgreen: You know,



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jgreen: Yeah, I was doing photography



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jgreen: And he liked this one photograph of it that he saw and he he paid me for it so



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jgreen: Interesting. Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: You certainly have a way of making people come around.





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I try



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Evan Taylor: And last couple of questions here. And do you watch race, ethnicity, or religious or cultural

heritage you identify with.



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jgreen: Well I identify as in terms of ethnicity of northern European Scandinavian Celtic English, Irish,

French



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jgreen: Definitely Scandinavian



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jgreen: I was adopted.



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jgreen: And that was adopted into a family that was English, Irish, Scottish Dutch Norwegian and



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jgreen: I was able to you know later was able to find out that my



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jgreen: birth mother was Danish and French



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jgreen: And my birth father was probably English, Irish



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jgreen: But, and then, of course, taking doing 23 and me stuff.



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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jgreen: Yes, indeed I am Celtic and Viking



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jgreen: With a high percentage of Neanderthal



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Evan Taylor: Okay, so it's all confirmed that





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Yes.



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jgreen: All confirmed, but I was raised in a Presbyterian



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jgreen: Setting okay in terms of religious affiliation, but I never



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jgreen: Connected with that at all. I'm much more sort of a



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jgreen: Pagan



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jgreen: Nature religion kind of



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jgreen: Feel like connected to the earth, and all that. Mm hmm.





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jgreen: And so I'm sort of atheistic in that sense. Right. But I do consider myself to be relatively spiritual



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Evan Taylor: Right, so more of a spiritual practice than a religious



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jgreen: Yeah, yeah. But what my parents actually taught us in spite of the long into the Presbyterian

Church was that it's important to respect other people's religions.



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jgreen: And it wasn't. They didn't care what religion we my brother, or I chose, but that that the

important thing they said was that we understood there was something out there, bigger than us, um,

right.



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Evan Taylor: So there was he there God, but I have to be something that inspired you. Yep. Beautiful.



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jgreen: Yeah, so that would that work for me. Mm hmm.



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Evan Taylor: Um, what about that you and your family. Are you are you partnered with somebody, if you

have kids grandkids.



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jgreen: Yes, I am personally married BEEN WITH THIS WOMAN NAMED HEIDI for



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jgreen: When we met in 2001 we married in 2003 and



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jgreen: We're very, very happy and



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jgreen: But I was in 1975 I met a woman who later became the mother of my children.



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jgreen: We were together for 14 years. Her name was Susan



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jgreen: She



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jgreen: The first time we actually first time we made love. She said to me afterwards she said to me, I

feel like I was just with a man



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And I said,



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jgreen: Well, she said, I hate to tell you this, but I feel like I was just with a man. And I said, Well, I hate

to tell you this, but I think maybe you were



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Evan Taylor: Here. Hey,



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jgreen: I think I'm transsexual and I'm scared to death to do anything about it.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And so she was very supportive and, you know,



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jgreen: Connected with that. And then when I actually started transition. Many years later, and she did

not like it one bit.



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jgreen: She ended our relationship, but that time we had a one daughter and a son on the way. Okay.

When she ended the relationship



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Evan Taylor: Wow that's difficult that time and at the time of the kids too. And that's, like, all that stuff.

Yep.



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jgreen: It was very difficult. And she she passed away in 2008 from complications of breast cancer.



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jgreen: Which was interesting because she was very



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jgreen: She didn't like medical intervention.



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jgreen: In general, and so like she had hardly ever been in a hospital. She'd never been in a hospital for

herself, other than to give birth.



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jgreen: She'd only been to visit other people but in us and she she came down with breast cancer and

had a very aggressive course of treatment and then





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jgreen: She was in remission. She was able to see our daughter graduate from college.



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jgreen: from UC Berkeley. And that was really meaningful for her.



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jgreen: And our son would have graduated from high school, except that he had dropped out and



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jgreen: But anyway.



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jgreen: About a year after that.



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jgreen: Her cancer returned and



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jgreen: But before that, I was forgot what I was going to say, Here's what I was getting at, she had one of

her course of treatment. So she hadn't bilateral mastectomy right and





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jgreen: She had decided that, because she didn't like the idea of having surgery, she didn't want to have

breast reconstruction. Right. And after about a year of sitting around with no bras.



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jgreen: And she consulted with what she was seeing a psychiatrist, mostly because of everything.



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jgreen: But her psychiatrist told her she had gender dysphoria because she couldn't see herself as a

woman without breasts.



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jgreen: Right. And that perhaps the surgery would actually help her your eight. And so she did it. And

then, and when when she got that when she internalized that she said to me one of the nicest things she

had said to me, since we split up.



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jgreen: Which she didn't say very many nice things to me after we split up but um



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jgreen: She said that said, I now understand



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jgreen: About about gender dysphoria. I really had no idea. Right.



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Evan Taylor: Wow, that's a beautiful that's a beautiful story that she actually was able to have that

embodied knowledge herself.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah, came to that understanding that way. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So that's a great story I'm

particularly you wouldn't you wouldn't know this, but my my PhD research was looking at



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Evan Taylor: Sexual marginality and gender marginality and cancer treatment.



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jgreen: Oh, wow.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah so. And one of the things that was so fascinating is looking at how



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Evan Taylor: how people make decisions and understood the embodied knowledge of the you know

what they felt in their bodies versus what their doctors said was the right thing to do or whatever.





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Evan Taylor: People very much had this sense and and their gender and sexuality informed that so

directly and yet their doctors were completely unaware that



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Evan Taylor: Like for instance, a trans man might experience breast cancer and a very different way and

just surgical reconstructions, then a very femme woman might feel or whatever. Right, right. So that's

fascinating. Thank you so much.



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jgreen: Yeah, right. Yeah, you bet.



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jgreen: That's that's fascinating research to I



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jgreen: I'd love to read your, your thesis.



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Evan Taylor: I'll happily, forward, forward along to you.



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Evan Taylor: Great. And so as soon as I find sex at birth with female





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Evan Taylor: Why, yes, and then your, your, what is your current gender identity or what has been that

trajectory for you.



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jgreen: Well, it's definitely male



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jgreen: And if necessary to to be



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jgreen: Fully you know just self disclosing transgender male. Um, but, you know, really, it's, I don't



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jgreen: It's, I don't think of myself as transgender all the time, right. It's a political position.



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jgreen: More than an identity. Yeah, it's an



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Evan Taylor: Organ organizing and raw





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jgreen: Right, yeah.



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Evan Taylor: Um, and then in terms of sexuality. How do you categorize that and has that changed over

time or with transition



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jgreen: Well, at first I was very attracted to women, when I was very young and occasionally to a guy,

but rarely and never really wanted to do anything about it and



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jgreen: So then I tried to I tried to be a lesbian. For a long time, but I never really felt comfortable as a

lesbian and even even long before I transitioned.



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jgreen: In many contexts, my lesbian friends would say, Oh, we're going to a women only event. You

don't want to come



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jgreen: Oh, okay. And I hate being left out. But yeah, you're right. I don't want to come



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jgreen: Yeah, so



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jgreen: So,



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jgreen: So I thought, you know, well, okay, I'm just, I'm transitioning from female to male that must

mean I'm transitioning from gay to straight ran, but I wasn't, I didn't really



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jgreen: And ultimately after probably



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jgreen: I'd say maybe



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jgreen: Eight or 10 years in to transition I



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jgreen: That was in a period of, of, okay, I never learned to date. I have to date. Now, if I'm going to find

a solid relationship that actually works. Why do I keep reinventing these bad relationships. Let's try

something.





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jgreen: More conscious. So I'm going to date without doing the lesbian okay we had sex. Now let's get

the U Haul right you know let's let's



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jgreen: This isn't going to be the last relationship I ever have just because I'm with with you now, doesn't

mean that I'm not going to be with somebody else at some other time.



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jgreen: Because I think a lot of times we especially back in the 60s and 70s when lesbians did that kind of

thing, because they thought they'd never meet another person who would love them.



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Evan Taylor: Right, yeah.



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jgreen: The skin. Yep.



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jgreen: And so I'm in. And I realized I mean you're I'm like in my 50s thinking of this, you know, or not

almost 50 late 40s.



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jgreen: mid 40s late 40s. I'm thinking, wow. Now I understand how straight people go through this

whole phase about learning how to have relationships and learning how to choose partners, not they all

do a good job at it they don't



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jgreen: Clearly,



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Evan Taylor: At least 50% of them.



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jgreen: Yeah, exactly, but



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jgreen: You know, I, I just never learned those skills. And so now I'm going to date and I decided that I

was just going to be responsive to people and guy said come on to me a lot, and I just decided to say no

I'm not afraid of this



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jgreen: Right. You know, so let's



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jgreen: See what happens. Try let's try gay. Let's try straight. Let's try by identified people and blah, blah,

blah. I now identify as bisexual and so does my wife.





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Evan Taylor: And so this just open that up for you in the way I've just like let me explore it when you did.

You were sort of like, okay, that people are people, and I'm not that whole I love a person not a gender

thing.



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Evan Taylor: Exactly right.



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jgreen: Exactly. Gotcha. So, and, you know, I, I am very monogamous. And so, as my wife, then that's

that works for us, but we are definitely queer



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jgreen: In that sense that we



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jgreen: Both have had tons years tons of experience in gay culture mini queer community and



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jgreen: And it's important to us.



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Evan Taylor: And how do you, I'm interested in how you relate to the word queer or the organizing

strategies as you as you know, if you will, around that.



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Evan Taylor: Because you've been, you know, around from a time when that was definitely not a word.

People use and then it came into a particular political movement. So how have you related to that over

time.



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jgreen: Well actually it was more common within



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jgreen: gay culture. Back in the 60s and 70s than a lot of people, one with bit



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jgreen: In the 70s when things got political right and like the the task force and the human rights

campaign started their national advocacy. He they made



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jgreen: And this is, I object. Let me say for the record, I object to the 501 c three nonprofit model of

community leadership. I don't think having a 501 C three means you are in charge.



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jgreen: But these organizations say they are in charge and claim to be speaking for everybody. And I, I,

although I have worked with these organizations and I know their leadership and I you know there's

value there. I really object to their strategies.



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jgreen: And one of their damaging strategies was. And this was right out of



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jgreen: Well, it came from both of the organizations.



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jgreen: That national gay and lesbian Task Force is a little more to the left.



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jgreen: But nonetheless, they both said okay we need to stick to sexual orientation and we need to

make sure that everybody understands that we're just normal people. And we own the only difference is

that we do something different in the bedroom and that's nobody's business and



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jgreen: You know, and therefore we got to get rid of all the gender queer looking people. We got to get

rid of the men and dresses. We got to get rid of, you know, the super dykes, you know, we don't want

anybody who doesn't look



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jgreen: Normal. Right. Yeah. And that was crucially damaging he but and that was where it was then that

they, you know, no, we can't use the word queer right



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Evan Taylor: So I'm thinking about this particular you know POINT IN TIME, AND I'M REMEMBERING for

myself. Anyway, my, my generation that people were talking, we didn't want the drag queens, you

know, to be leading the Pride Parade because they're gonna make us all look bad.



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Evan Taylor: And



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Evan Taylor: That sort of thing. So I and I'm, you know, I'm wondering from, from your perspective in

terms of organizing strategies because, you know, again, I'm interested in some of the activism here.



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Evan Taylor: With was mistaken. The sense of it divided people, when in fact we have the the

commonality of all of us.



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Evan Taylor: being oppressed by how it is that we're supposed to do, gender, whether we do gender and

straight or do gender as it says gender or whatever, but that that is the oppression, we should have

organized together.



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jgreen: That's right. Right.



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Evan Taylor: Gotcha.



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jgreen: And that's, that's the, that's the only reason why I sort of adopted or grudgingly took on the label

of transgender in the early 90s because transsexual was so



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jgreen: It was such a lightning rod right it with it with the word sex in it, it made a lot of people upset.



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jgreen: To me it was a medical term.



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jgreen: Right and perfectly useful huh and



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jgreen: And I really worried about people adopting transgender as an identity label right



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jgreen: I thought it was an organizing label, not an identity label.



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jgreen: Hmm. And, but, you know, you can't control language so



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jgreen: It is what it is. It does what it does and things get on that catch on and things that don't, don't.

Great.



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Evan Taylor: And where we are now. I mean, I'm, you know,



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Evan Taylor: Doing these these conversations, it's inherently an intergenerational practice where I'm

talking to you as a generation above me, if not a couple of generations. And then we're preserving this

for the generation to follow me, if not a few more.



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Evan Taylor: And so I'm thinking now about, you know, as somebody who's almost I'm just almost 40

and I'm thinking about the 20 year olds right now. And when you say the word transsexual it's it's it's like

it's like a racial slur like it's like



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jgreen: And I don't know where that came from. I mean, some somebody somewhere said that's an

insulting term right and you know it's the lip in the medical literature is rife with it. He is everywhere. It's

a, it's a very, very useful term, especially for people like me who's gender never changed.



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Evan Taylor: Right, yeah.



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jgreen: And what changed for me was my sexual characteristics.



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Evan Taylor: He he literal biological bodily sex is what changed not



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jgreen: Right, right.



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jgreen: He my identity never changed my gender never changed my the way I express myself never

changed.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah yeah



322



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jgreen: There's a lot of people have to really learn a lot of things about how to express themselves when

they go through a transition



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jgreen: Whether they're



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jgreen: male to female, male and I didn't need to do any of that.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah.



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jgreen: I was already perceived as male



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jgreen: You know, from the time I was a little kid.



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Evan Taylor: He. Yeah, I've seen a picture of you, and that was supposed to be pre transition I think

about 21 or something and and you have like this long hair and I, and it was supposed to be free

transition and I just I can't see it. I'm like, You look like a man.





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jgreen: Was that the one with me and Mike construction worker clothing.



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Evan Taylor: I think so.



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jgreen: Yes, I let my hair grow for a reason.



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jgreen: That that yeah there are very few pictures of me with long hair because was very little very tiny

little period of my life when I had long hair like that.



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Evan Taylor: It was



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jgreen: When I was working in construction.



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jgreen: And specifically because the phone company had a policy that guys couldn't have long hair.





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jgreen: And so I decided to let my hair grow being the first female person there to see if they would say

anything to me about it.



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jgreen: And they didn't. So it didn't take very long.



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jgreen: But the guys around me recognized. Oh, I can let my hair grow too because they all wanted you

know they were all playing they're playing rock and roll.



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jgreen: On it hair.



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Evan Taylor: making the world a better place for everybody and everybody. Yes.



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jgreen: That's right. So, so that, and then as soon as the guys started letting their hair grow and nobody

said anything to them. I cut my hair again.



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Evan Taylor: No Mark yourself back to the mail.





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jgreen: I also did. It did something else in that context to where guys always you had to as a cable

splicer, you have to call into a test board and tell tell them where you are. So in case there's a problem

on the line, if they send a high voltage current down, they won't fry you



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Evan Taylor: Okay.



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jgreen: They can tell you to get out of the out of the cable if they need to do that. So, um, so you've

always call in and they had the test board had this record of where everybody was and everybody

identified themselves with their last name.



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jgreen: And I decided I wasn't going to do that. So I just, you know,



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jgreen: I don't go by green a green, you know, I'm not in the service, you know,



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jgreen: You know, at that time, I was I was using a while Jamison was my name, but I use Jamie for short

right and





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jgreen: So I said, Hi, this is Jamie, this Jamie. Jamie green. Yep. Jamie and producing all the other guys

started using their first names to



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jgreen: It was much more humanizing



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Evan Taylor: Yes, yeah. At Knox that and that sort of, as you say, the toxic masculinity, in terms of the

militarization that out of it makes small



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Evan Taylor: Yep. Cool.



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Yeah.



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jgreen: So those were those were two



355

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jgreen: Social engineering things I did it without telling anybody





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Evan Taylor: And these things have a ripple effects. Right. It's amazing when you make one small change

you know and and again we're talking about



357

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Evan Taylor: transact visit. But so much of transaction ism is wrapped up in the changing ways that

gender has been understood and the ways, especially I think masculinity has changed over the last, you

know, 50 years or so.



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jgreen: Right, yeah.



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Evan Taylor: Absolutely. And in terms of the so when we're talking about activism, but it's not a word

that you identify with you identify as an activist is not a word you would use.



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jgreen: Now, I do. But I didn't at the beginning. In the beginning



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jgreen: I shied away from activist, because it was used



362



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jgreen: It basically was a diminishing term okay and



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jgreen: You know, if you were identified as an activist that you were easy to dismiss okay and I so I used

the term in the beginning I used the term advocate.



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jgreen: And



365

00:38:16.650 --> 00:38:18.690

jgreen: Other people labeled me an activist.



366

00:38:21.120 --> 00:38:21.990

jgreen: And



367

00:38:23.070 --> 00:38:24.060

jgreen: After a while,



368

00:38:26.010 --> 00:38:30.810

jgreen: Let's see. I guess probably more so during the Obama years



369



00:38:33.060 --> 00:38:43.470

jgreen: I became more accepting of the term activist and would be would if I asked to submit a bio

somewhere I would use activist, rather than advocate.



370

00:38:44.550 --> 00:38:46.620

jgreen: That would use advocate in some other way.



371

00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:52.770

Evan Taylor: But what was that was that shift that happened around the Obama era that made that

more comfortable for you.



372

00:38:53.970 --> 00:38:54.540

jgreen: Um,



373

00:38:56.250 --> 00:38:59.130

jgreen: activists were welcomed him into the establishment.



374

00:38:59.580 --> 00:39:02.040

jgreen: I'm activists were



375

00:39:04.530 --> 00:39:12.720

jgreen: Recognized as having an important role to play, it is having an impact that was meaningful in the

social structure.





376

00:39:13.890 --> 00:39:25.320

Evan Taylor: And you figure that that is related to the fact that we finally had a black man and power

and that the idea of activism to to affect that change was now sort of welcomed in that in that way.



377

00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:45.270

jgreen: I yeah. Possibly. I don't know that it's, I don't know that I could attribute it to his race, per se, but

the he was he was a community organizer. He was known as a community organizer prior to running for

the Senate, he, he wasn't in the senate very long.



378

00:39:48.120 --> 00:39:48.510

But



379

00:39:49.590 --> 00:39:55.080

jgreen: Because he was much more of a in the street, kind of a person. Hmm.



380

00:39:56.190 --> 00:40:01.140

jgreen: And yeah, I mean, certainly the fact that he was black is important. I'm not trying to be

dismissive.



381

00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:03.090

But



382

00:40:06.180 --> 00:40:10.800



jgreen: You know he he he was he was a he was a late



383

00:40:11.850 --> 00:40:15.780

jgreen: adopter, if you will, of any kind of LGBT



384

00:40:18.600 --> 00:40:23.340

jgreen: Pro LGBT policies. He did not come easily to that table.



385

00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:29.010

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. He was going to do specific organizing to that to create those conversations



386

00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:31.770

jgreen: Yeah, there was a lot of



387

00:40:33.570 --> 00:40:36.720

jgreen: A lot of people within the administration. I wasn't one of them, but



388

00:40:38.640 --> 00:40:40.230

jgreen: There were people who were



389

00:40:41.850 --> 00:40:54.690



jgreen: Were able to make that to have those conversations and and to affect his and, you know, I'm

pretty sure his wife actually had an impact on his ability to accept the idea of



390

00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:58.260

jgreen: Same sex marriage, you know,



391

00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:03.360

jgreen: But in terms of trance stuff. I think



392

00:41:05.640 --> 00:41:13.050

jgreen: We had a lot of people who came to it from a spiritual perspective grain and we had



393

00:41:15.240 --> 00:41:23.460

jgreen: You know people like Bishop Gene Robinson, who didn't know anything about trans really but

was willing to learn



394

00:41:25.830 --> 00:41:31.710

jgreen: He had the year of the administration, right. So, you know,



395

00:41:33.510 --> 00:41:39.930

jgreen: progress was made in that in that regard. And this it, but it was the openness to community.



396



00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:40.920

jgreen: That



397

00:41:41.070 --> 00:41:41.790

jgreen: Was that I think



398

00:41:43.470 --> 00:41:45.900

jgreen: Enables enabled those discussions. Mm hmm.



399

00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.970

Evan Taylor: Yeah, yeah, somebody with a different background and understanding what community

organizing looks like. Right. Yeah.



400

00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:57.390

Evan Taylor: And in terms of thing. So, you know, going back to before that, when you were first, you

know,



401

00:41:58.080 --> 00:42:05.580

Evan Taylor: Involved in what other people were calling activism. What sort of dream to That Was it that

you felt you needed to do it, or was it the fact that you



402

00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:12.060

Evan Taylor: Had a position that you know that you were able to contribute to other folks what was,

what was the sort of beginnings of that work like for you.





403

00:42:14.220 --> 00:42:17.130

jgreen: Well, I would say just



404

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.800

jgreen: The salient thing was that I



405

00:42:25.740 --> 00:42:26.940

jgreen: I realized first well



406

00:42:29.370 --> 00:42:32.190

jgreen: First of all, I realized that



407

00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:39.390

jgreen: Doctors didn't tell us anything he



408

00:42:40.890 --> 00:42:44.520

jgreen: Insurance just it had exclusions preventing our health care.



409

00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:49.530

jgreen: And not just transition related care, but any kind of health care.





410

00:42:49.650 --> 00:43:08.520

jgreen: Yeah, because the clauses, although they were targeted to transition related care. They were

written so broadly that they gave cover to any BIGOT Who wanted to say, nope, sorry, I can't treat your

sore throat. Nope, sorry, I can't sit your broken leg. Hmm. That's a transsexual leg.



411

00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:09.300

jgreen: can touch it.



412

00:43:09.390 --> 00:43:11.640

Evan Taylor: Yeah, I'm not a specialized enough. Right.



413

00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:14.850

jgreen: So that had to be changed.



414

00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:24.240

jgreen: And as I gradually met more trans people in the late 1980s.



415

00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:38.130

jgreen: I realized, hey, these are all good ordinary people who are living with shame and fear. And I'm

like, that is wrong.



416

00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:44.130

jgreen: What am I going to do, what am I going to do about it because and I'm





417

00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.560

jgreen: I decided at the when Lou Sullivan died.



418

00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:59.610

jgreen: He had asked me a week before he died to take over his newsletter. Right. And in the newsletter.

Nobody published their whole name.



419

00:44:01.020 --> 00:44:10.350

jgreen: Everybody went by just an initial and last name or just to initials or their first name and last initial

right you know



420

00:44:11.490 --> 00:44:18.210

jgreen: But nobody. Everybody was really super worried about confidentiality. Mm hmm. And



421

00:44:19.290 --> 00:44:21.360

jgreen: You know, the locations of meetings were not



422

00:44:22.380 --> 00:44:33.120

jgreen: Publicly available right now I'm you had to know somebody and you had to be interviewed by

Lou before you could be given the, the location of a meeting.



423

00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:35.430



Evan Taylor: Yeah, go ahead, sir. Okay. Right.



424

00:44:36.600 --> 00:44:37.410

jgreen: But, um,



425

00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.440

jgreen: But I, after I took over and got more exposed to more people and



426

00:44:46.650 --> 00:44:49.050

jgreen: When I say took over and you know that sounds



427

00:44:50.550 --> 00:45:06.870

jgreen: A lot more active than it was. I mean, I just now, I had this I had this in my house now, whereas

before it was somewhere out there and now it's in my house and I'm having to produce this thing and

I'm having to think about this, and I'm getting communication from all these people



428

00:45:08.040 --> 00:45:10.740

jgreen: You know, how do I manage all this and I'm thinking,



429

00:45:13.290 --> 00:45:14.850

jgreen: We have to be public.



430



00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:27.690

jgreen: We cannot be so closeted right we will never get our needs met. We will never make the world

safe for us to be different if nobody knows who we are.



431

00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.210

jgreen: Hmm. Nobody people don't understand us



432

00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:36.150

jgreen: Right, some point I published a little squib in the newsletter, saying, Okay, I'm going public.



433

00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:38.490

jgreen: I'm going to start doing



434

00:45:39.810 --> 00:45:44.010

jgreen: gender diversity trainings. I called it okay and



435

00:45:45.090 --> 00:45:48.540

jgreen: And I, because I think we need to let people know that we're out here.



436

00:45:48.750 --> 00:45:51.720

Evan Taylor: And that was the language you're using back then with gender diversity train us



437



00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:54.690

jgreen: Yeah, okay. That's what I wrote in the newsletter.



438

00:45:56.430 --> 00:46:05.880

jgreen: I'll have to go and look at the newsletter make absolutely sure. But that's, I think, pretty sure

that's what I wrote gender diversity training interesting is that it was going to be a gender diversity

consultant or something like that.



439

00:46:06.330 --> 00:46:09.570

Evan Taylor: Fascinating, because that's the language. We've come back around to now.



440

00:46:11.340 --> 00:46:13.740

jgreen: Yeah, nothing's nothing sacred



441

00:46:15.390 --> 00:46:18.240

Evan Taylor: Was the reaction of other folks in here.



442

00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:23.370

jgreen: People were the people called me up from all over the place. Don't do it.



443

00:46:24.540 --> 00:46:25.050

jgreen: Don't





444

00:46:25.110 --> 00:46:26.280

Evan Taylor: You're going to do is



445

00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:31.320

jgreen: You're going to expose us, they'll take away everything we have never survive.



446

00:46:31.650 --> 00:46:32.550

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



447

00:46:32.640 --> 00:46:41.670

jgreen: It's important that we stay hidden. Right. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I disagree with you. Yeah, I

really, I really think we have to



448

00:46:42.990 --> 00:46:54.690

jgreen: Step up a bit. And then, as you know, a couple years later when the term transgender was

coming up. A lot of people argued vehemently against the term. Nice. I said,



449

00:46:55.680 --> 00:47:03.090

jgreen: An emphasis on one person I know said you know that's going to erase transsexuals and we

won't be able to get our medical needs met.



450

00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:03.690

Evan Taylor: Right.





451

00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:10.860

jgreen: I said, look, we're adults, we have those of us who have these needs have to speak up. Be

responsible take care of our needs.



452

00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:15.660

jgreen: Right, make sure that those things can get handled that a word isn't going to change that.



453

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.250

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.



454

00:47:18.150 --> 00:47:18.810

So,



455

00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.200

jgreen: You know,



456

00:47:22.770 --> 00:47:30.720

Evan Taylor: I'm certainly thinking that Lou would have been very, very supportive of the idea of you

going public because he was so you know so out there himself in that way.



457

00:47:30.870 --> 00:47:32.400



jgreen: He was not very public at all.



458

00:47:32.910 --> 00:47:33.300

Evan Taylor: Huh.



459

00:47:33.450 --> 00:47:44.670

jgreen: He was very, very shy. He did some did some public speaking, which the last last year of his life.

He asked me to step in for him in some university classroom settings.



460

00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:55.410

jgreen: But, and he and he was outspoken in terms of his approach to the medical community trying to

educate them about the difference between



461

00:47:56.190 --> 00:48:08.280

jgreen: sexual orientation and gender identity. Right. Right. And that was, that was his significant

contribution, but he he totally supported the confidentiality. He totally



462

00:48:09.990 --> 00:48:12.810

jgreen: He wasn't all that out there. Okay.



463

00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.040

Evan Taylor: He



464



00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:15.360

jgreen: Wrote, he wrote a lot



465

00:48:16.770 --> 00:48:18.750

jgreen: Of a diary. He didn't share that with anybody.



466

00:48:19.620 --> 00:48:27.120

Evan Taylor: I'm the only thing I've seen of him that was, I was thinking about was this this interview that

he has with his psychiatrists, that was so



467

00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:27.780

jgreen: You know,



468

00:48:28.890 --> 00:48:36.450

Evan Taylor: It felt led me to me was most public at that time how the publicizing of that in any way was

just so radical



469

00:48:36.690 --> 00:48:39.270

jgreen: It wasn't publicized. It was just recorded



470

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:40.950

Evan Taylor: Oh, yes.





471

00:48:42.240 --> 00:48:44.850

jgreen: It was not on TV or anything like that.



472

00:48:45.060 --> 00:48:45.900

Evan Taylor: Okay.



473

00:48:46.110 --> 00:48:47.610

jgreen: It was not a public thing.



474

00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:49.740

Evan Taylor: That was much later that that became



475

00:48:50.850 --> 00:48:51.150

Evan Taylor: Probably



476

00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:53.760

Evan Taylor: The internet and digital collections and things



477

00:48:53.790 --> 00:49:04.230

jgreen: Yes, it was circulated because there were several copies made and I recall. He himself sent me a

copy his copy because he said, I don't need this anymore. Yeah.





478

00:49:05.610 --> 00:49:18.510

jgreen: And yeah. And in fact, you know, Dallas Denny, and I wrote a Dallas Danny and Jason Cromwell,

and I did an article about about some research that we did about language that's used in in



479

00:49:19.740 --> 00:49:27.150

jgreen: trans community and the how the medical establishment kind of messes with us linguistically

and



480

00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:34.560

jgreen: We actually from our first our first discussion about it. Actually, it was at



481

00:49:35.670 --> 00:49:52.560

jgreen: In Vancouver in Vancouver, BC at the big meeting in 1997 and I presented on our on some work

that Dallas and I had done on bisexuality and and then I mentioned about the



482

00:49:54.900 --> 00:49:56.400

jgreen: The bad language.



483

00:49:57.450 --> 00:50:11.970

jgreen: And I recall. He was in the audience, and afterward he approached me and said, well, Dallas and I

were standing there talking and I represented the work as mine and Dallas and he approached us and

said, Well, what do you want us to call you.



484



00:50:13.380 --> 00:50:15.330

jgreen: And we were like, man.



485

00:50:16.950 --> 00:50:20.520

jgreen: You know, we're not going to speak for the entire community.



486

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:21.210

Evan Taylor: Right.



487

00:50:21.330 --> 00:50:26.790

jgreen: We'll get back to you. And we went out and did some research on it and and with this was pre

internet



488

00:50:27.870 --> 00:50:28.440

jgreen: And



489

00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:33.060

jgreen: So, I mean, Internet existed, but it wasn't widely used in the



490

00:50:33.060 --> 00:50:34.020

Evan Taylor: Mainstream yet.



491



00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:35.370

And



492

00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.180

jgreen: So we did some research and we had



493

00:50:40.710 --> 00:50:49.710

jgreen: A paper and then I presented that paper in 2001 at the big conference in Galveston, Texas, and

that paper.



494

00:50:51.360 --> 00:51:10.410

jgreen: transformed the language that doctors were using at the time he basically I was there with two

other two trans women who also had presentations on the language is language us and they put us all

together in an opening plenary session.



495

00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:12.930

jgreen: And at the end of it.



496

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:26.640

jgreen: The three of us presented our little you know 15 minute abstracts of our work and what our

theories were and all the questions afterward came to me.



497

00:51:28.140 --> 00:51:40.260



jgreen: And I was, I was really kind of surprised about that, but I'm realizing, though, that it's it's the fact

that I'm a trained communicator. The fact that I've had so much experience.



498

00:51:41.580 --> 00:51:41.940

jgreen: You know,



499

00:51:43.830 --> 00:51:54.630

jgreen: Working with doctors right that um I think that they just related to the way that I was delivering

the message. It's not that our messages were that different. Right.



500

00:51:55.590 --> 00:52:05.370

jgreen: But then that was during the time when you had your overhead slides and they had pencils that

you could are these crayons, you could write on your slides and



501

00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:07.170

jgreen: Yeah overhead projector and stuff.



502

00:52:07.680 --> 00:52:09.120

Evan Taylor: And little weird wacky things



503

00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:14.670

jgreen: Yes. So throughout the entire conference for the next three or four days, however long the

conference was





504

00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:25.440

jgreen: Doctors would be presenting and they would have scratched out the quotation marks around

the pronouns are names and they are around the organs.



505

00:52:26.010 --> 00:52:38.730

jgreen: And they would change. They crossed out the names of things and and wrote over them. I mean

it was just, and they would stop themselves in the middle of their presentation and say, is genius in

here. Is it okay if I say this



506

00:52:39.510 --> 00:52:41.460

jgreen: I'm not kidding. It was was



507

00:52:42.540 --> 00:52:49.350

jgreen: It was phenomenally dramatic wow that that was boom. It's just shifted right there.



508

00:52:49.890 --> 00:52:53.220

Evan Taylor: And so what were the words they were using, what would they change them into



509

00:52:53.970 --> 00:53:00.060

jgreen: Well, I mean, they, they were instead of like, for me, they would call me female because



510

00:53:00.120 --> 00:53:01.110

Evan Taylor: Gotcha. Okay.





511

00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:12.690

jgreen: You know, so I was a woman who was living as a man not really a man and that and he if they've

used a pronoun would have would be in quotes.



512

00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:14.160

Evan Taylor: Gotcha.



513

00:53:14.490 --> 00:53:18.060

jgreen: And my name would be in quotes. Yeah, you know,



514

00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:18.900

Evan Taylor: I'm not sure.



515

00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:21.150

jgreen: If you know they're talking about a



516

00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:26.760

jgreen: Neo vagina, they would have vagina in quotes.



517

00:53:27.030 --> 00:53:41.160



Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. I remember sort of around this time yet, you know, if you looked at journal

articles. It was so hard to tell who they were talking about right, it would say transsexual woman when

what they meant was a trans man.



518

00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:41.880

jgreen: Exactly.



519

00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:46.920

Evan Taylor: And then he was so hard to and I remember just looking at articles and having to



520

00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:58.230

Evan Taylor: Figure out, and then you know you learn who the doctor, the doctors were because then

you'd learn which doctors referred to people appropriately and which ones didn't um you know even

have to figure it out in the articles.



521

00:53:59.580 --> 00:54:00.180

Evan Taylor: And my



522

00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:11.850

Evan Taylor: Language is very fascinating to me very fascinating to me. It's the department that my PhD

was in was land to literacy. So I'm fascinated with how language has changed. Not necessarily.



523

00:54:13.050 --> 00:54:19.500

Evan Taylor: Know the language itself, but the what we think and believe around it and how it culturally

it shifts are just things culturally





524

00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:26.010

Evan Taylor: What the conversations that I'm asking folks about right now is the some of the very older

words. So, you know,



525

00:54:26.370 --> 00:54:38.220

Evan Taylor: A transsexual was, you know, you know that one of these still like a newer term at some

point. But before there was like transit or training or some of these these older words and do remember

those words being used in community.



526

00:54:39.450 --> 00:54:43.710

jgreen: trannies used occasionally, you know, sort of like dyke.



527

00:54:46.110 --> 00:54:48.810

jgreen: Trans definitely existed in the 70s.



528

00:54:50.160 --> 00:54:57.300

jgreen: Stephen widdle wrote a paper or wrote a big thing about how he invented it in the 90s and I had

to write to him and say, I'm sorry, Stephen. If you go to the



529

00:54:57.870 --> 00:55:14.310

jgreen: Gay and Lesbian history. Historical Society in San Francisco and look at the street newspapers

that were circulated in the Tenderloin and and the pole district. Now you can find trans all over the

place. Right. Yes. Yes. You didn't make it up and





530

00:55:16.350 --> 00:55:21.840

Evan Taylor: That we're referring to, like, a specific fact like hacking of the of the trans community.

Where was it



531

00:55:22.050 --> 00:55:30.780

jgreen: Was it, but I think in those days it was really about people who cross dressed. It was probably

about sex workers in many contexts, but



532

00:55:31.830 --> 00:55:38.160

jgreen: In that those particular neighborhoods, but also it was about people who crust rest and we're

sort of in the in between.



533

00:55:39.060 --> 00:55:40.320

Evan Taylor: He said,



534

00:55:40.350 --> 00:55:45.870

jgreen: cross dressing may not have been, you know, like traditional cross dressing you know where you

know



535

00:55:46.950 --> 00:55:51.330

jgreen: You're, you're a guy and you're going to dress up to look like your mother right you know



536

00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:56.310



Evan Taylor: But it could have also been like people who are doing drag or whatever as well that time.



537

00:55:57.720 --> 00:56:06.390

Evan Taylor: And so what's the word. So I'm just a clarification or we were talking about the word trans.

It was it was trans us differently than trendy or trans II.



538

00:56:07.110 --> 00:56:09.990

jgreen: Yes, trans. He was more



539

00:56:12.900 --> 00:56:18.930

jgreen: A little bit more derogatory tranny was definitely derogatory trannies very popular tournament

Australia.



540

00:56:19.260 --> 00:56:22.830

jgreen: He was like the term in the community to



541

00:56:23.850 --> 00:56:26.190

jgreen: It was not thought of as a derogatory term at all.



542

00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:26.970

Right.



543



00:56:28.770 --> 00:56:33.270

jgreen: In the like in the 90s 80s and 90s, but I'm



544

00:56:35.040 --> 00:56:41.850

jgreen: 20 was pretty was training and translate pretty and like tranny transit he, she, it.



545

00:56:42.390 --> 00:56:46.620

jgreen: Know, pretty much the same kind of bad language.



546

00:56:47.790 --> 00:56:48.540

jgreen: But like



547

00:56:49.560 --> 00:57:05.910

jgreen: Like lesbians could call it call each other dikes but if somebody else called him a dyke, they were

in trouble right you know trans people would call themselves transit your tranny but if somebody else

said it. That was not good. Gotcha.



548

00:57:05.970 --> 00:57:06.450

Gotcha.



549

00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:19.080

Evan Taylor: And what about what are some of the other sort of changes that you've seen in terms of

how we how we refer to each other because you're, you know, you've seen this language actually unfold

itself over the years.





550

00:57:19.680 --> 00:57:20.820

jgreen: Unfolding threefold.



551

00:57:23.190 --> 00:57:26.010

Evan Taylor: Interesting. Tell me more about that. That's a, that's an interesting observation.



552

00:57:26.310 --> 00:57:44.910

jgreen: Well, I think it's just it we don't have control over language, you know, and things come and go,

then you know somebody something catches on at one point and fades and then somebody uses it

again and somebody else likes it, and boom, it catches on, you know, it's, there's no



553

00:57:46.380 --> 00:57:51.300

jgreen: There's no rhyme or reason. Exactly. I, you know, as somebody who's



554

00:57:53.010 --> 00:58:07.590

jgreen: I write for two reasons. One is to be evocative to move people and one and the other is to

educate, to inform. Mm hmm. And so in both styles of communication.



555

00:58:09.930 --> 00:58:14.550

jgreen: You use words differently. But you have to be clear.



556

00:58:16.500 --> 00:58:19.380



jgreen: And so that's in either in either



557

00:58:20.610 --> 00:58:32.520

jgreen: Realm. And so, clarity is the thing that matters to me. I don't like to be cavalier with language in

the context of



558

00:58:33.660 --> 00:58:39.720

jgreen: Where I might be educating someone or you never know where you might be educating

someone



559

00:58:40.770 --> 00:58:45.690

jgreen: Or only with your, with your closest friends, can you be completely free.



560

00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:58.980

jgreen: And and they might call you on it if they don't understand something, you're saying right but

strangers won't call you on it. They'll just take what you said and they'll use it the way they want to. Mm

hmm.



561

00:59:00.690 --> 00:59:16.500

jgreen: And I think that's something that a lot of people don't realize when especially when we think of

education being well I'll just go out and tell my story and that will educate people write your story is not

educational unless you give it context.



562

00:59:16.770 --> 00:59:18.510

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. If





563

00:59:18.540 --> 00:59:26.280

jgreen: Without context that connects to the life of the audience that every single person in the

audience, they won't get it.



564

00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:27.270

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



565

00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:28.800

jgreen: They'll take something



566

00:59:29.910 --> 00:59:33.000

jgreen: But it won't necessarily be what you intended right



567

00:59:33.810 --> 00:59:43.080

Evan Taylor: That's something that was so different when becoming invisible man came out and that's

what was so different about that than a lot of the other books that were around at that a lot of the

other books. I mean, there was what like 10



568

00:59:44.160 --> 00:59:45.120

jgreen: Or less. Yeah.



569

00:59:46.050 --> 00:59:52.710



Evan Taylor: But like a lot of the other books that were coming out that were sort of memoirs in this in

this way, and we're very



570

00:59:53.640 --> 00:59:59.910

Evan Taylor: Autobiographical but they didn't. What I found different about your book at the time. And I

think that's also because I was



571

01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:07.560

Evan Taylor: I was in university is it was a young sort of college student and and what was so different,

was that there was a context to it. There was, um,



572

01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:15.840

Evan Taylor: It wasn't just here's. It wasn't just here's my here's my personal history. Here's my life story.

It was here is my life decision making.



573

01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:28.620

Evan Taylor: In the context of, you know, a theoretical way that we can actually look at the world. Here's

my worldview here's, you know, the politics that I've been involved in. Here's the cultural context and

and you gave all of that sort of



574

01:00:28.980 --> 01:00:36.210

Evan Taylor: You know what I what I that time recognized as an academic context, you know, I think it

was so much more than that. But a, you know,



575

01:00:36.540 --> 01:00:40.860



Evan Taylor: At least there was that, and I think that was so different, because at the time.



576

01:00:41.190 --> 01:00:49.620

Evan Taylor: You know, people were just just literally writing, you know, it was like your personal

journey because take your personal journal and go and publish it and just cuz he were trans people think

that was groundbreaking



577

01:00:50.100 --> 01:00:56.460

Evan Taylor: Right, but your book, there was. It was there was more meat to and I don't know what it

was, and I think



578

01:00:57.150 --> 01:01:11.940

Evan Taylor: Is this what you're saying right now that that good communication requires good context

and clarity around that. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that I really, I really remember that that book for me

shifted something culturally because



579

01:01:12.390 --> 01:01:15.660

Evan Taylor: You know, it changed the idea of being trans from



580

01:01:17.160 --> 01:01:26.160

Evan Taylor: You know, I wasn't quite familiar with Aaron divorce work yet or anything like that. But, um,

it's for me it's shifted the conversation around transmits from look at these neat weirdos.



581

01:01:26.490 --> 01:01:29.040

Evan Taylor: You know, it's very interesting. And, you know, yeah.





582

01:01:29.490 --> 01:01:30.000

jgreen: Of course,



583

01:01:30.120 --> 01:01:31.200

Evan Taylor: It's still going on.



584

01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:36.390

Evan Taylor: Yes, but it shifted the conversation away from that and it for the first time I think made



585

01:01:37.470 --> 01:01:43.620

Evan Taylor: At least for for trans masculine folks and it made us an interesting subject of study.



586

01:01:44.160 --> 01:01:52.200

Evan Taylor: You know that I could be like, Oh, well, we could we could you know we're an interesting

bunch of people like you know let's let's let's do some work on that. Let's understand this phenomenon.



587

01:01:52.530 --> 01:02:03.330

Evan Taylor: And and and i think that that was there was a shift those trying to happen in the late 2000s

around that, you know, with Aaron divorce gender blending book things. There was some shifts

happening.



588

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:18.060



Evan Taylor: But you for me in that book made it accessible to the average person who actually wanted

to understand more not just a fun story, but we wanted to get something and be interested in it. I think

it stimulated that conversation.



589

01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.780

jgreen: Thank you. Thank you. That is what I wanted to do.



590

01:02:21.930 --> 01:02:22.320

Hmm.



591

01:02:23.700 --> 01:02:38.520

Evan Taylor: Well, you certainly, certainly did. And I told her in the story as well. But I remember going,

you know, to the very depths of the university library like way down in the basement way down the back

over in the corner. And there was this one shelf.



592

01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:48.210

Evan Taylor: And on the shelf was Cromwell's book on the show like there's, you know, there's just a

few. And I remember that shelf. And so I think in doing these conversations what so



593

01:02:48.870 --> 01:03:00.210

Evan Taylor: You know, we talked with the intergenerational aspect of it, but as much as there's

definitely intergenerational trauma that happened for trans folks doing this historical work, I think, is

part of the intergenerational healing that we can do.



594

01:03:00.570 --> 01:03:10.440



Evan Taylor: Where you you know there was what like no money in green or something. There wasn't a

the books that were around for you. We're not you know you're not as helpful as perhaps you would

want them to be.



595

01:03:10.770 --> 01:03:19.230

Evan Taylor: Right. And then for me there was a shelf. And now what we are creating for the next

generation that's coming behind me is an entire archive.



596

01:03:19.290 --> 01:03:21.150

Evan Taylor: Yep people's lives and histories



597

01:03:21.270 --> 01:03:22.530

jgreen: Yep. I agree.



598

01:03:22.890 --> 01:03:30.300

Evan Taylor: It's i mean it's it's it's it's groundbreaking in that, in that sense that we're able to have

conversations across three and four generations.



599

01:03:30.510 --> 01:03:33.480

jgreen: Yeah, it's fantastic. I really, really like it.



600

01:03:35.100 --> 01:03:35.550

jgreen: So,





601

01:03:37.350 --> 01:03:52.980

jgreen: Sister get back to the the activism thing. And I'm not say that not to be dismissive of this I I really,

really appreciate what you said about my work, because that's exactly what I wanted to accomplish and

and I'm really proud to have been able to



602

01:03:54.240 --> 01:03:55.980

jgreen: To reach some people



603

01:03:58.170 --> 01:03:59.010

jgreen: But I'm



604

01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:10.860

jgreen: Just say back in 1992 so I started doing educational talks and this is again about context, right.



605

01:04:12.390 --> 01:04:31.050

jgreen: I started doing some of the talks that Lou was too ill to go to. And then I kept after he died. I got

called more and more, but I used they used to do these panels and they they they have a gay man and

and lesbian and across dresser and a transsexual or they you know it's whatever they



606

01:04:32.250 --> 01:04:32.430

jgreen: Did



607

01:04:33.450 --> 01:04:42.990



jgreen: And so I would go and be the transsexual or the male, the female to male transsexual if they had

that kind of array right but um



608

01:04:45.810 --> 01:04:53.070

jgreen: Yeah, after a while, and sometimes I would speak last frequently, I would speak last in the in the

row and



609

01:04:55.440 --> 01:05:07.140

jgreen: You know, people would would say, well hey guy, you know, by that time they'd be comfortable

with the audience would be comfortable with us. And they'd say, So how come you're not wearing a

dress today. And I'd say, Well, I don't do that anymore.



610

01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:08.970

jgreen: We mean



611

01:05:10.770 --> 01:05:12.750

Evan Taylor: Maybe purposely I don't do that anymore. Yeah.



612

01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:33.960

jgreen: Right. So, and that was always a shock to people had this idea that trans people were always

men and dresses. Right. Yeah, always and that you know female to male people simply didn't exist. And

then, oh, if they do well, of course, women want to be men because



613

01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:36.600

Evan Taylor: Of course, who wouldn't want





614

01:05:36.720 --> 01:05:39.570

jgreen: To. So, you know, you're, you're not interesting.



615

01:05:41.040 --> 01:05:41.430

Evan Taylor: Right.



616

01:05:41.460 --> 01:05:49.620

jgreen: I understand you. Yeah, of course. Right. So that was, that was a tough one but it as it happened.



617

01:05:52.260 --> 01:06:07.380

jgreen: The same professors would call me back semester after semester. And after a while, it didn't

actually was probably a year or two. So, two or three lectures and they stopped inviting the panels and

they would just invite me



618

01:06:07.530 --> 01:06:18.210

jgreen: Hmm, because I was able to give a context, right, I was able to provide some history. I was able

to provide some social



619

01:06:19.650 --> 01:06:24.570

jgreen: Content commentary. Right. I was able to put things in context for people



620

01:06:25.680 --> 01:06:33.660



jgreen: And talk about more than just myself right yeah that's made that made me an interesting

speaker.



621

01:06:35.430 --> 01:06:42.990

jgreen: Now, people were also interesting speakers for many other good reasons. You know, they were

funny or they were angry and people



622

01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:55.380

jgreen: caught on to that emotion and they like that and thought that they were powerful. So whatever

that it you know there's lots of ways to be an interesting speaker, but that was, that was my little hook.

Mm hmm. In those times.



623

01:06:56.160 --> 01:07:03.990

jgreen: And then to move into the activists, so I was strictly doing education right and then I was invited



624

01:07:05.100 --> 01:07:11.100

jgreen: Out of doing this education to speak to the San Francisco. Human Rights Commission.



625

01:07:13.980 --> 01:07:18.510

jgreen: To their they had a community based board called the



626

01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:30.330

jgreen: gay, lesbian, bisexual, HIV advisory committee so GL be HIV advisory committee to the Human

Rights Commission right





627

01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:45.570

jgreen: And so there was a staff person from the Human Rights Commission who convened a monthly

meeting of this committee and I was asked to come and educate this committee about why they should

have trans trans people should be included.



628

01:07:47.670 --> 01:07:49.740

jgreen: And it took two years.



629

01:07:50.880 --> 01:08:00.000

jgreen: To convince two years of monthly meetings to convince this body of community members that

trans people had a place



630

01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:09.840

jgreen: And trans people deserve human rights and considerations that was so finally in 1994 we got



631

01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:24.180

jgreen: To hold a public hearing in the supervisors chambers and invite witnesses to testify about how

they were discriminated against because of their transgender status and then



632

01:08:25.980 --> 01:08:32.160

jgreen: And I helped to organize that and get the get the people to come and testify and then



633



01:08:34.050 --> 01:08:36.780

jgreen: And I wasn't the only one involved. And I was, I was



634

01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:49.140

jgreen: There were several other there were several trans women who are also involved in educating

this committee and then in a few trans men would show up periodically. Yeah.



635

01:08:50.730 --> 01:08:59.340

jgreen: But, but I was probably the only one who was hundred percent consistent for all those years,

and



636

01:09:03.450 --> 01:09:06.510

jgreen: So anyway, we, we, they held the public hearing



637

01:09:08.160 --> 01:09:12.480

jgreen: In 1994 in May of 1994 and



638

01:09:14.580 --> 01:09:34.110

jgreen: And there was a there was recorded testimony and they get a transcription and they had asked

for bids from contractors to write the report of the committee that would be make come up with

findings and recommendations that the Human Rights Commission could adopt or reject.



639

01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:48.600



jgreen: And so I bid on that as a writer, you know, as a professional writer I bid on that contract and I

want it. There was a huge uproar from a lot of trans women.



640

01:09:49.650 --> 01:09:50.490

jgreen: That that



641

01:09:51.780 --> 01:09:54.240

jgreen: A white man was getting to write this report.



642

01:09:55.320 --> 01:09:56.670

Evan Taylor: And this isn't the mid 90s.



643

01:09:57.900 --> 01:10:09.900

jgreen: Yep. Okay. Yep. And so the Human Rights Commission people had to remind them that I was also

a member of the subject class. Hmm. I mean, constantly people would



644

01:10:11.130 --> 01:10:16.680

jgreen: Not recognize my trans ness. Right. And that was



645

01:10:18.060 --> 01:10:31.830

jgreen: It was sometimes it's useful and other times it's really damaging. Mm hmm. But anyway, I wrote

the report, it was accepted by the Human Rights Commission, it's still available on the Human Rights

Commission website.





646

01:10:32.850 --> 01:10:33.450

jgreen: And



647

01:10:34.650 --> 01:10:53.760

jgreen: And it actually the findings and recommendations are remarkably appropriate even today that

describe what are the problems that trans people experience and what can be done about it from a

municipal standpoint. Right. And the first recommendation was that



648

01:10:55.650 --> 01:11:01.530

jgreen: That we should have a non discrimination ordinance and so that the Human Rights Commission

could investigate any complaints and



649

01:11:02.070 --> 01:11:13.800

jgreen: Help to resolve issues because that was one of the big problems right yeah you know trans

people would come and complain and they would say, well, we can't. There's nothing we can do. There's

nothing in the law that gives us any authority because



650

01:11:14.280 --> 01:11:15.600

jgreen: Anything for you because



651

01:11:16.050 --> 01:11:17.400

jgreen: We don't understand you anyway.



652



01:11:19.110 --> 01:11:19.530

jgreen: So,



653

01:11:22.050 --> 01:11:34.860

jgreen: So anyway, that so then they asked me to go and sit down with a city attorney and draft the

ordinance because they wanted to be sure the language was correct, because I did not want anything in

there about transgender a transsexual



654

01:11:36.030 --> 01:11:50.910

jgreen: I wanted it to say, gender identity or expression right that because those are universal

characteristics that everyone has and no one should be discriminated against, as a result of their gender

identity or expression.



655

01:11:52.200 --> 01:11:55.320

Evan Taylor: language we use up here in Canada and our human rights laws so



656

01:11:55.650 --> 01:11:56.370

jgreen: Right, it came



657

01:11:56.970 --> 01:11:57.480

Evan Taylor: From now.



658

01:11:57.690 --> 01:11:58.050

Yep.





659

01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:07.680

jgreen: So that passed at the end of 1994 and then we went into effect 30 days later in January of 95



660

01:12:08.700 --> 01:12:17.580

jgreen: But as soon as it passed, and this was like completely out of the blue. I had no idea. I was going

to say this, but I had been thinking



661

01:12:18.990 --> 01:12:32.280

jgreen: About how to handle these insurance exclusions and the fact that people were cut off from

medical care and paid into their insurance plans, but then couldn't get any benefits from it, etc, etc.



662

01:12:33.360 --> 01:12:33.840

jgreen: And



663

01:12:34.890 --> 01:12:40.230

jgreen: I'm and I had fought with my own company. I was no longer working there.



664

01:12:41.430 --> 01:12:42.750

jgreen: In 1994 but



665

01:12:44.610 --> 01:12:54.420



jgreen: But the company Sun Microsystems, where I worked when I transitioned. I had fought with them

about some of some of their coverage stuff and



666

01:12:56.280 --> 01:13:16.140

jgreen: I didn't win. But, you know, it gave me more food for thought around the issue, right. So this

soon as the, the non discrimination ordinance passed, I turned to the Human Rights Commission, guys.

And I said, guess what, now you're in violation of your equal benefits ordinance.



667

01:13:17.070 --> 01:13:26.190

jgreen: E, the equal benefits ordinance was their flagship legislation that moved to domestic partner

benefits across the entire United States. Okay.



668

01:13:26.610 --> 01:13:42.060

jgreen: Back in the 80s was a huge, huge deal. And they were extremely proud of it. And they had a

room full of attorneys examining contracts with with vendors who were trying to do business with the

city to make sure that they had



669

01:13:43.950 --> 01:13:45.060

jgreen: Equal benefits.



670

01:13:45.120 --> 01:13:45.720

Evan Taylor: Page.



671

01:13:45.780 --> 01:13:48.300

jgreen: For gay and lesbian people and





672

01:13:49.320 --> 01:13:52.140

jgreen: You know, so I said, now you're in violation of this they went, what



673

01:13:54.060 --> 01:14:10.080

jgreen: What, what do you mean. And I said, well, and having never read any of their insurance policies.

I said, likely your insurance policies that you offer to your transgender employees all have exclusions

that prevent them from actually accessing the health care that they need and



674

01:14:13.620 --> 01:14:15.390

jgreen: They went, oh my God, wow.



675

01:14:18.270 --> 01:14:18.780

jgreen: And you don't



676

01:14:18.870 --> 01:14:28.290

Evan Taylor: Need to go and read it at that point, you know. Yeah, everybody knew at that point that at

least that our community. We all knew that nothing was covered



677

01:14:28.440 --> 01:14:29.490

Evan Taylor: Right, right.



678

01:14:29.700 --> 01:14:32.190



Evan Taylor: Right, I don't need to go read it. I'll just tell you it's there.



679

01:14:32.370 --> 01:14:34.050

jgreen: Yeah, so



680

01:14:36.120 --> 01:14:40.680

jgreen: You know, the big sort of flipped out about it. But then I also said, look,



681

01:14:43.140 --> 01:14:56.100

jgreen: You now have well no, this I'm getting mixed up strike that so I said that at that time 1995 1994

rather end of 94 and



682

01:14:57.360 --> 01:15:04.110

jgreen: They kind of flipped out and then a few years went by, actually, at least two years went by and



683

01:15:06.420 --> 01:15:16.950

jgreen: I think it was two years, maybe it wasn't even quite that long. Anyway, a couple of guys from the

FEMA group by that i i was still leading



684

01:15:18.300 --> 01:15:34.440

jgreen: Who lived in the city because I didn't live in San Francisco. So I wasn't always engaged with stuff

all the time, but they went to some meeting and they had a big protest about it about insurance and got

really angry about access to health care and stuff like that.





685

01:15:35.490 --> 01:15:36.090

jgreen: And



686

01:15:39.240 --> 01:15:40.890

jgreen: At that moment,



687

01:15:42.180 --> 01:15:49.140

jgreen: Somebody went to the reporter WENT TO THE MAYOR'S OFFICE AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE

started referring press calls to me.



688

01:15:51.480 --> 01:15:52.140

jgreen: To my home.



689

01:15:53.550 --> 01:15:54.780

Evan Taylor: Your home number, even my



690

01:15:54.780 --> 01:15:55.260

Home.



691

01:15:56.700 --> 01:16:11.250

jgreen: And you know what's this about you know these demands that San Francisco provide health

insurance benefits. And I'm like, Well, I don't know anything about it. But so, but I jumped on it.





692

01:16:12.630 --> 01:16:13.740

jgreen: And we



693

01:16:15.690 --> 01:16:19.080

jgreen: We started meeting with the with the



694

01:16:21.150 --> 01:16:31.500

jgreen: The system health system service board, which is an appointed board of leaders in the

community. There's somebody from the fire department somebody from the police department.



695

01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:42.630

jgreen: Somebody the city Treasurer someone from another person from the Board of Supervisors a

medical doctor that's appointed by the mayor, these people



696

01:16:44.040 --> 01:16:55.290

jgreen: Do you determine what are the benefits going to be that go into the health insurance plans and

we met with them for years.



697

01:16:56.580 --> 01:17:08.580

jgreen: monthly basis for years. And a lot of times you know they they put this on the agenda we gather

doctors and therapists and stuff to come in as witnesses testify



698



01:17:09.210 --> 01:17:19.080

jgreen: They and they we'd all be there and then they'd say, Oh, we're gonna have to table this item,

sorry, we can't. We don't have time for that. Right.



699

01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:32.370

jgreen: They were trying to get us to go away night and I was not going away. He so it took it took until

the year 2000 for us to get



700

01:17:32.850 --> 01:17:45.000

jgreen: Benefits in place into in one of the plans that they offered, but the the thing was I had a theory

and the theory was that there should be no cost associated with transgender care.



701

01:17:47.100 --> 01:17:48.060

jgreen: Because



702

01:17:49.200 --> 01:17:56.490

jgreen: There's very small number of people are actually going to use it right relative to the large pool of

insured.



703

01:17:57.120 --> 01:18:06.750

jgreen: But Aidan to me dawned on me many years prior that as an individual, I could beat my head

against the insurance company wall forever and not accomplish much



704

01:18:07.500 --> 01:18:20.190



jgreen: To make real systemic change the employers are the consumers of insurance policies right

they're the ones who make the contract. He they are the ones who have the power. You're the ones

who are paying



705

01:18:20.250 --> 01:18:21.840

jgreen: Paying the bills. That's right.



706

01:18:21.900 --> 01:18:23.190

jgreen: They're the ones who are paying the bills.



707

01:18:23.400 --> 01:18:27.750

jgreen: They're the ones who have the leverage to get the insurance companies to do something

different.



708

01:18:27.870 --> 01:18:38.130

jgreen: He so I said, you know, my theory was there should be no cost associated with this, the numbers

are small utilization will be low and



709

01:18:39.030 --> 01:18:49.680

jgreen: They basically every procedure every treatment or procedure that they are restricting from trans

people are already offered and covered for trans people. Right. Yeah.



710

01:18:49.770 --> 01:18:56.340

Evan Taylor: It for for whatever other health conditions that they might, whether it's breast cancer

reconstruction and all that stuff. Yep. Yeah.





711

01:18:56.940 --> 01:19:00.510

jgreen: So that was my position and I was going to stick with it.



712

01:19:01.770 --> 01:19:11.130

jgreen: And I pushed and pushed and pushed. And finally, we got something through but and that wasn't

exactly what I wanted. Because they put in the $75,000 cap.



713

01:19:12.510 --> 01:19:20.130

jgreen: One, which I thought was useless and stupid, but it was they were just trying to look as if they're

being fiscally responsible



714

01:19:20.430 --> 01:19:20.790

Evan Taylor: Right.



715

01:19:21.090 --> 01:19:28.500

jgreen: Yeah, and but what they're doing is harming people but it's and finally they got rid of that that

stuff. But it took many years.



716

01:19:29.580 --> 01:19:33.990

jgreen: But then I there was a guy who



717

01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:41.940



jgreen: Who I knew a gay man who had developed what he called the equality index.



718

01:19:43.380 --> 01:20:00.450

jgreen: And it was a he was into shareholder activism and he developed this equality index and he

wanted to get companies to be rated on how good they were around equality issues and he sold that

instrument to the Human Rights Campaign.



719

01:20:01.590 --> 01:20:06.540

jgreen: And then in 2000 or 2001. I'm not sure exactly when they sold it, but



720

01:20:07.680 --> 01:20:19.170

jgreen: The first edition of the corporate equality index came out in 2002 okay but he sold it to them

with the condition that they always include transgender rights.



721

01:20:20.970 --> 01:20:24.600

jgreen: And transgender issues at the time they were not



722

01:20:26.130 --> 01:20:30.000

jgreen: very adept at that trans issues at all.



723

01:20:31.080 --> 01:20:44.700

jgreen: So the corporate equality index is administered by the workplace project, which is part of the

foundation so it's part of the nonprofit educational arm. It's not part of the lobbying arm great and





724

01:20:46.500 --> 01:20:50.100

jgreen: I was invited to join the Business Council.



725

01:20:51.300 --> 01:20:56.910

jgreen: Which is a board level position without a giver. Get that was filled with



726

01:20:58.980 --> 01:21:02.490

jgreen: This board was filled with gay and lesbian people who were



727

01:21:03.870 --> 01:21:15.150

jgreen: usually fairly highly placed in in major corporations around the country and they advised the

workplace project on the development of the corporate equality index.



728

01:21:15.750 --> 01:21:32.400

jgreen: And the measures that and how to do education around it and blah, blah, blah. So I was invited

to join the Business Council, and so was a trans woman named Donna rose. Okay, who was at the time it

was working for Dell in Texas.



729

01:21:34.350 --> 01:21:34.890

jgreen: And



730

01:21:37.320 --> 01:21:46.590



jgreen: And so the two of us. BASICALLY CARRIED THE TRANS flag for the workplace project and using

the corporate equality index, we got



731

01:21:47.700 --> 01:21:58.170

jgreen: By 2012 or 13 more than two thirds of all the fortune 500 corporations were offering trans

inclusive care.



732

01:21:58.470 --> 01:22:00.090

jgreen: Wow, and



733

01:22:01.530 --> 01:22:13.860

jgreen: I'm in. I met up at a, at a, at a Govt health conference. I've met up with a guy named Andre

Wilson, who



734

01:22:15.540 --> 01:22:26.730

jgreen: Knows new newly in transition guy who was a union organizer and he and I became friends

because I could see he had



735

01:22:27.810 --> 01:22:39.180

jgreen: Skills that I didn't have and that together we would be able to drive this insurance thing even

farther. Yeah. And so he and I from



736

01:22:40.230 --> 01:22:49.860

jgreen: On he and I developed all of the education stuff that HR see used to devote to train corporations

and corporate benefits managers.





737

01:22:50.400 --> 01:23:05.940

jgreen: To ask for this coverage to make sure that this coverage was equitably distributed to convince

executives that the coverage was necessary, you know, all, all this stuff. We just did a ton of work with

them.



738

01:23:07.650 --> 01:23:08.190

jgreen: And



739

01:23:11.100 --> 01:23:11.700

jgreen: Yeah.



740

01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:13.500

jgreen: That was



741

01:23:15.450 --> 01:23:17.730

jgreen: Then in 2014



742

01:23:19.590 --> 01:23:24.630

jgreen: This Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services lifted the exclusion.



743

01:23:25.710 --> 01:23:27.300



jgreen: On transsexual surgery.



744

01:23:28.620 --> 01:23:31.860

jgreen: Which they had had in place since the early 80s.



745

01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:33.540

Evan Taylor: Wow.



746

01:23:34.230 --> 01:23:47.520

jgreen: And I know for a fact. And people say, oh, and then other insurance followed after CMS did this.

Well, that's not true insurance was already doing it, that's what gave CMS, the courage to do it.



747

01:23:47.730 --> 01:23:48.390

Right.



748

01:23:49.440 --> 01:23:52.230

Evan Taylor: The the the motivation, if you will. Right.



749

01:23:52.380 --> 01:24:03.840

jgreen: So doctors believe that because CMS opened it up that that this is that insurance is now more

widely available right



750



01:24:03.900 --> 01:24:05.100

Evan Taylor: But it happening. Other way around



751

01:24:05.280 --> 01:24:06.090

jgreen: The other way around.



752

01:24:06.510 --> 01:24:14.730

Evan Taylor: Yeah i mean it's it's it's so interesting that, you know, in that way, you're able to sort of

leverage the corporate



753

01:24:16.140 --> 01:24:30.840

Evan Taylor: You know, the, the need for the need for capitalism to continue to just sustain itself, you're

able to hook into that and harness the in a way of saying this is actually not just this isn't a socially

responsible thing. This is financially responsible



754

01:24:30.870 --> 01:24:38.460

jgreen: That's right. Yeah. You've made an investment in your employees you hired them for a reason

you're contributing something to your bottom line.



755

01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:46.800

jgreen: You want to make sure your employees are healthy. You want to make sure your employees are

getting along, you want to deal with all these things. So hey, you have to do this.



756

01:24:47.130 --> 01:24:55.800



Evan Taylor: Yeah, that's, that's a brilliant. It's a brilliant strategy in that way to do to be basically it's, you

know, to use the system against itself.



757

01:24:55.890 --> 01:24:57.330

Right, yeah.



758

01:24:59.310 --> 01:25:00.300

jgreen: Yes, so



759

01:25:01.440 --> 01:25:03.690

jgreen: There's another aspect to this that



760

01:25:04.860 --> 01:25:06.450

So I was just thinking of it. Let me think.



761

01:25:13.470 --> 01:25:15.000

jgreen: It'll come back to me. Sorry.



762

01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:24.240

Evan Taylor: No worries. I was wondering about it, where this connected with your work with w path

because you were around in Delhi path all through this time that you're describing here.



763



01:25:24.780 --> 01:25:35.010

jgreen: Well I the first my first W path meeting was the one in the hip big meeting in Vancouver in 97.

Okay. And while I was there.



764

01:25:36.990 --> 01:25:38.070

jgreen: There was a revolt.



765

01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:55.530

jgreen: At the meeting and trans people demanded to get pounded on the doors and demanded to get

in and listen to the discussion of the forthcoming fifth version of the standards of care, right, and there

was literally nothing in the standards. Well,



766

01:25:56.550 --> 01:26:02.220

jgreen: Tiniest mention of breasts. But other than that, nothing that had to do with trans man.



767

01:26:02.670 --> 01:26:04.500

jgreen: Right and



768

01:26:05.550 --> 01:26:11.040

jgreen: You know, everything was was geared toward trans women. And so some guys



769

01:26:14.460 --> 01:26:29.760



jgreen: Basically said, look, we need more of this and Stephen Levine, who was the head of that the

standards committee at that point stood right there on the stage in front of hundreds of people and

pointed at me and said, all right, I'm going to make you an advisor.



770

01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:35.340

jgreen: To the standards and you know you can let us know what we should change.



771

01:26:37.620 --> 01:26:39.360

jgreen: And I'm just like, Oh, fuck.



772

01:26:40.500 --> 01:26:47.160

jgreen: You gave me one week to review the standards document and get him back a



773

01:26:48.930 --> 01:26:57.960

jgreen: Recommendations. So I went through it with a fine tooth comb. I actually stayed up 24 hours

doing it made myself ill.



774

01:26:58.770 --> 01:27:08.160

jgreen: sent it off to all the guys I knew who were at the meeting right and asked for their and guys I

knew who cared.



775

01:27:09.120 --> 01:27:20.190

jgreen: And who were logical and smart and asked for their feedback and asked for their just make sure I

didn't miss anything. And they all came back and said, This is great.





776

01:27:21.030 --> 01:27:28.740

jgreen: And some people said, Oh, you should have this, this, and this, but I did have that I know. But it

was very, very fast turnaround.



777

01:27:29.190 --> 01:27:44.250

jgreen: And then, and when I sent it in. I sent it with all our names on it, not just me all our names. So

what happens the damn they take the only corrections that I offer that they actually accepted were

punctuation.



778

01:27:45.780 --> 01:27:49.050

jgreen: They took literally nothing that I suggested.



779

01:27:50.100 --> 01:28:07.050

jgreen: And Dallas Danny was also an advisor from the MIT male to female perspective, right. So our

names are listed in this version five when it was published in 98 as as advisors to the committee and

literally



780

01:28:07.140 --> 01:28:14.100

jgreen: I don't know what they if they suggest if they took any of Dallas suggestions. But they took.

Literally none of mine. Nothing substantive



781

01:28:15.270 --> 01:28:22.290

jgreen: In 9091, I think it was





782

01:28:24.120 --> 01:28:36.330

jgreen: Was it 91 when the meeting was in London. Okay, and Aaron devor was on the on the standards

had been appointed Standards Committee, right, and also



783

01:28:38.430 --> 01:28:40.200

jgreen: And Lawrence was on the committee.



784

01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:51.840

jgreen: And they came to me and asked, I was not allowed to be on the committee I was not allowed on

first I have to go back and say back to 97



785

01:28:53.430 --> 01:28:57.240

jgreen: While I was at that meeting several people who are on the board.



786

01:28:58.260 --> 01:29:05.190

jgreen: took me out to dinner and said, You have to join the association, right, we really need you.



787

01:29:06.240 --> 01:29:07.200

jgreen: And I'm like really



788

01:29:08.400 --> 01:29:12.330

jgreen: And they said, well, but you can't join as a full member because you're not a doctor so





789

01:29:14.520 --> 01:29:29.160

jgreen: You have to join as a supporting Member, but you can at least come to the meetings and blah,

blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, So, what's the price difference right there supporting Member and they

say, oh, it's the same price. And I'm like, Why should I pay the same price for fewer benefits of



790

01:29:29.160 --> 01:29:29.730

jgreen: Membership



791

01:29:29.790 --> 01:29:34.020

jgreen: Come on. So, but I joined. Anyway, as a supporting Member.



792

01:29:35.490 --> 01:29:38.280

jgreen: And I happen to know that for the next



793

01:29:39.870 --> 01:29:40.980

jgreen: Four years.



794

01:29:42.210 --> 01:29:46.530

jgreen: The board argued about whether or not I could be a full member



795

01:29:50.100 --> 01:29:55.890



jgreen: And I know it because one of the board members sent me copies of the email exchanges.



796

01:29:56.100 --> 01:29:57.510

I'm



797

01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:02.040

jgreen: In which I was. It was labeled is



798

01:30:04.770 --> 01:30:08.580

jgreen: An activist who had entirely too much power.



799

01:30:09.540 --> 01:30:15.570

Evan Taylor: Interesting. Yeah, it goes back, back, back, back, that that the dismissive use of that word

again.



800

01:30:15.810 --> 01:30:16.170

jgreen: Yep.



801

01:30:16.710 --> 01:30:18.720

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Yep.



802

01:30:18.810 --> 01:30:31.680



jgreen: And so, but all of a sudden in 2002 after that whole thing with in 2001 at Galveston right with

the language change in 2002 out of the blue, I get a letter from the



803

01:30:32.190 --> 01:30:44.580

jgreen: The membership committee chair, who happened to that time to be Walter boxing right who

said, congratulations. You are now a full member and you can vote in the next election and, you know,



804

01:30:45.240 --> 01:30:55.500

Evan Taylor: So is this the sort of thing that the all the protesters in Vancouver were were upset about

was that they weren't able to access this inner circle love of clinicians



805

01:30:56.400 --> 01:31:05.580

jgreen: Yes. The meeting was expensive so they all got in without having to pay. I paid I paid even

though I wasn't even a member I paid



806

01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:06.270

Evan Taylor: Right.



807

01:31:06.360 --> 01:31:23.340

jgreen: To attend the meeting. I was a presenter and I still paid you know i mean there's everybody pays.

So I'm, you know, I wanted to pay my way. And so, but all these guys got Ian because they found it on

the door and which you know is great. I mean, it has to be done.



808

01:31:26.400 --> 01:31:26.940

jgreen: That and





809

01:31:27.120 --> 01:31:31.830

Evan Taylor: Sort of the voice of the voice of reason. But I think that you were the person who was able

to



810

01:31:32.430 --> 01:31:46.410

Evan Taylor: Take the know that that that that movement. They were trying to make by literally just

getting the door open. You were then able to say, well, that's, you know, since we're opening the door.

How about we really opened the door like lead us into the before members, I



811

01:31:47.400 --> 01:31:50.670

jgreen: I didn't say that, um,



812

01:31:52.710 --> 01:31:59.940

jgreen: I didn't say that, but I did question what why they have to why they wanted to be so exclusive



813

01:32:00.510 --> 01:32:02.070

Evan Taylor: What was it for you that motivated you then.



814

01:32:03.060 --> 01:32:08.640

jgreen: Because I believed that we needed more doctors on our side.



815

01:32:10.590 --> 01:32:16.560



jgreen: We needed people to understand us better to meet our needs better



816

01:32:17.670 --> 01:32:18.210

jgreen: And



817

01:32:19.290 --> 01:32:29.970

jgreen: To be more responsive to us and to speak up for us in contexts where we couldn't speak for

ourselves. Mm hmm. He



818

01:32:31.500 --> 01:32:32.460

jgreen: And so



819

01:32:33.870 --> 01:32:35.520

jgreen: That's why I wanted to get involved.



820

01:32:40.710 --> 01:32:45.120

jgreen: And then in into so in 2003 they had an election for board and



821

01:32:46.230 --> 01:32:47.460

jgreen: A friend, it's a



822

01:32:48.480 --> 01:32:51.540



jgreen: Therapist in New York City.



823

01:32:52.740 --> 01:32:56.700

jgreen: called me up and said, If I nominate you for the board. Will you accept a nomination. And I said,



824

01:32:58.350 --> 01:32:58.860

Ah,



825

01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:06.390

jgreen: I'm just starting my PhD program. I won't, I won't have time to be on a board.



826

01:33:07.410 --> 01:33:19.350

jgreen: And she said, all the board doesn't do much anyway it all. They only meet once a year. It's like,

it's not a big deal. It's just something nice on your resume. She goes, I know you want to be president of

this organization someday.



827

01:33:19.740 --> 01:33:25.080

jgreen: It would just be good to get your name out there on the ballot. Nobody ever wins the first time

they're on the ballot anyway.



828

01:33:26.070 --> 01:33:38.940

jgreen: Get your name on the ballot get with your little statement about what your vision is for the

organization. It'll people will get to know you. And then when you're ready to run for president, you can.

I know. Okay, I'll do it. Well, I got elected.





829

01:33:42.060 --> 01:33:42.690

jgreen: It's true.



830

01:33:42.780 --> 01:33:44.070

Evan Taylor: I was not planning on this.



831

01:33:44.190 --> 01:33:51.060

jgreen: Right, I did. I got elected in 2003 to the board and for the first four year term.



832

01:33:52.350 --> 01:33:54.510

jgreen: They hardly spoke to me.



833

01:33:55.920 --> 01:34:01.470

jgreen: The other board members. I mean, it was sometimes in that we only did have one meeting.



834

01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:04.350

jgreen: A year.



835

01:34:05.490 --> 01:34:12.000

jgreen: And actually, at that in that those days. I think we only in the first for the first couple of years, we

only had a meeting every two years.





836

01:34:13.980 --> 01:34:20.460

jgreen: 2006 they started having meetings board meetings in the off years okay but



837

01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:37.470

jgreen: Maybe it was 2005 anyway for the first two years there was only one meeting a year and in the

first couple of meetings, I was in people, you know, slide start to speak, they would just they look at me

and then they turn away. I mean, it was, it was downright rude.



838

01:34:37.830 --> 01:34:38.400

Evan Taylor: Wow.



839

01:34:38.490 --> 01:34:39.060

jgreen: That was



840

01:34:39.780 --> 01:34:50.040

jgreen: The animosity. Yeah, it was like, I don't know if we can listen to you. You're not if you're not a

professional. You're not a physician, right.



841

01:34:51.840 --> 01:34:52.290

jgreen: So,



842

01:34:53.520 --> 01:35:01.410



Evan Taylor: And when did that start to shift. I mean, did you ever feel like there was a moment that that

that that changed or was it always like that.



843

01:35:01.620 --> 01:35:22.170

jgreen: Yeah, it started to shift in 2005 2006 I'm Stephen whittle got elected president in 2007 right well

he was actually elected, he became president in 2007 so he was elected in 2005 and then he's president

elect for two years. So he's he's there and I'm



844

01:35:24.030 --> 01:35:33.030

jgreen: Also, so he was the first trans person to be president of W path. I'm the second trans person to

be president of w, okay, um,



845

01:35:34.200 --> 01:35:43.620

jgreen: And it was that was it. One of our year meetings, I think in 2006 pretty sure it was 2006 at



846

01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:47.100

jgreen: Even had his chair.



847

01:35:48.870 --> 01:35:49.290

jgreen: Okay.



848

01:35:51.870 --> 01:35:55.320

Evan Taylor: Oh yeah, you're cutting out there a little bit in frozen.





849

01:35:58.680 --> 01:35:59.400

Let me just



850

01:36:00.930 --> 01:36:01.350

Know,



851

01:36:02.730 --> 01:36:04.020

Evan Taylor: Pause this for a second.









































Aaron replacement





Interview Summary – Trans Activism Oral History


Summary:
After introductions, Jamison begins by talking about a play called “I am my own wife” based on the life of
Charlotte von Mahlsdorf, whom he met briefly in person. The interview begins with demographic information and
Jamison shares that he has a lifelong allergy to peanuts that has not only been traumatic, but has shaped his
activism in the sense that he had to learn at an early age how to advocate for himself and his health with
authorities in his life - particularly those who didn’t take him seriously. He recounts an incident as a child where he
ate a piece of cake after an adult pressured him to. He also recounts a story from 1973 of calling out one of his
doctors about his terrible bedside manner and that the doctor completely changed his approach.

He was with the same partner for 14 years who became the mother to his children, but the relationship didn’t work
out after he began transition and she didn’t understand it. She passed away of breast cancer in 2008, but before
she did, she reached out to Jamison to let him know that, after her own mastectomy, she had come to understand
his feelings of gender dysphoria. He talks about sexuality, and the evolution of his identity; he and his wife are
monogamous, but they are both bisexual, and queer, and that is important to them.

Politically, he objects to the 501 c three nonprofit model of community leadership and their organizing strategies.
He also discusses the problematics of the discourses used to identify trans people and the confusions between
political strategies and identities. Jamison talks about his own techniques of what he calls “social engineering”. He
talks about working in construction and growing his hair out as a woman, and how that encouraged his male
colleagues to also push with the company to be allowed to grow their hair long, and he also ensured that the
company called him by his first name, not last. He talks about organizing in the Obama years and how he began
to be more comfortable with the label of activist as activists were invited to the decision-making tables.

A week before he died, Lou Sullivan asked him to take over his newsletter. At the time, no one published their
whole names in the newsletter, just initials, but Jamison felt that visibility was a key to changing the political
landscape and started using his whole name and doing gender diversity trainings. There was a lot of pushback
from community members who felt their survival was connected to being hidden.

He recalls a training that he did with doctors at the Vancouver 1997 conference where the doctors all changed
their language for the rest of the conference and it was an immediate shift in how medical providers talked to and
about their trans patients. He also recalls different words used over time to describe trans people and specifically
recalls the use of the words trans and tranny in earlier years.

He describes doing many talks and lectures in the 90s and joining a community advisory board to the Human
Right Commission where it took 2 years of meetings to have trans rights included. In this same period, he also
pursued complaints with his employers about the health insurance coverage for trans people. The mayor started
referring calls about insurance to his home, so he started meeting with the city’s leadership board about coverage
in the health insurance plans. Finally, in 2000, this coverage was in place. His priority in these negotiations was
that trans people shouldn’t have to pay anything out of pocket for health care.

He was then invited to join the Business Council, which is a board level position, and along with Donna Rose,
used the Corporate Equality Index to increase the coverage for trans health to about ⅔ of all Fortune 500
companies. Andre Wilson and Jamison developed all of the education stuff that HRC used to devote to train
corporations and corporate benefits managers.

Interviewee name: Jamison Green


Interviewer: Evan Taylor


Date of Interview: February 28, 2020








Jamison remembers being appointed as an advisor in 1997 to the standards of care and consulting with other
trans men about the contents. However, none of his suggestions were taken and used in the revised version
published. He was invited to joint the WPATH board, but there was some pushback from other members who felt
he was too much of an “activist”. He was elected to the board in 2003 for the first four year term - but the other
board members would barely speak to him and would turn away when he talked.












































WEBVTT



1

00:00:10.559 --> 00:00:12.000

Evan Taylor: Hello. Can you hear me and see me.



2

00:00:12.269 --> 00:00:13.710

jgreen: I can hear you and see you



3

00:00:14.009 --> 00:00:15.960

Evan Taylor: I can, I can see you, but I can't hear you.



4

00:00:16.230 --> 00:00:18.150

jgreen: Oh, hold on, let's see.



5

00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:27.600

jgreen: Well, let me try with my headset should be working without the headset, but



6

00:00:27.750 --> 00:00:29.340

Evan Taylor: There we go, there we go. Oh.



7

00:00:29.460 --> 00:00:30.840

Evan Taylor: There you go, that's working.





8

00:00:31.170 --> 00:00:32.850

Evan Taylor: Is that okay perfect



9

00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:35.250

jgreen: Okay, I won't put on the headset, then



10

00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:37.770

Evan Taylor: No need for that.



11

00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:38.550

Okay.



12

00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:41.400

jgreen: How are you



13

00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:48.240

Evan Taylor: Great. Now, sometimes the headsets as well. I'm just gonna say something last time, but it

actually worked itself out sometimes they can kind of bang against the color and it's a weird



14

00:00:48.540 --> 00:00:54.000



Evan Taylor: Sound with it. So if you can do it without the headset. It's actually usually a little bit more or

less distracting sounds



15

00:00:54.360 --> 00:00:55.980

Evan Taylor: Good. Awesome.



16

00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:56.610

jgreen: Got it.



17

00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:04.800

Evan Taylor: So let me just check double check. Everything's recording properly. Yes. So we're back on.

So good morning again. Nice. Nice.



18

00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:09.600

jgreen: Yes. Great to see you. This is fun.



19

00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:24.960

Evan Taylor: So I taken a look at sort of where where we were at last time. So hopefully we can just

seamlessly move right through into the next pieces. And so there's. There was one question I had for

you and that we left off at the end and who nominated you in 2003 and four, the board.



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jgreen: Kit rachlin





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Evan Taylor: Kit wrapping. Okay, you've mentioned, it was a friend from New York, but I didn't know

what so on.



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Evan Taylor: And so yes, where we were, as we were talking about those those first few years were you

know folks were perhaps not as receptive to having a trans person on the board as maybe would have

been acceptable.



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jgreen: Well, it's interesting because, you know, they always had



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jgreen: They started with a trans person on the board. They started with Jude patent rate and you know

but but he was he was a PA, you know, physician assistant and he



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jgreen: He's very mild mannered soft spoken and so he was, he was like, okay.



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Evan Taylor: Okay. All right.



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jgreen: They were scared of me. Mm hmm. Some of them were



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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jgreen: Yeah. Not everybody



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jgreen: So, um,



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jgreen: And I think it had been a while since they had had a trans person on the board.



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jgreen: When I was elected okay and



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jgreen: You know, it's, it is when I was elected.



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jgreen: You like Coleman said to me, You know, we lost members because you were elected. Hmm.





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Evan Taylor: And I said well on the board left the board because he because you cannot the



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jgreen: Lord, the organization. Oh, wow. Mm hmm.



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jgreen: So I said, Oh, that's too bad. They're going to miss all the fun



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Mm hmm.



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jgreen: And four years later when I reelected. He said the same thing. And I said the same thing.



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jgreen: And four years after that when I was elected president. He said the same thing.



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Evan Taylor: I mean, you wouldn't be anybody left so many people believe it.





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jgreen: Well, and I said the same thing. And during my presidency or membership like tripled.



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Um,



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Evan Taylor: I wonder if that says something about, you know, the confidence and the leadership at that

point that you were familiar enough and you know recognizable the people



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jgreen: Will I think it says something about the



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jgreen: Well, that, that may be a factor. I don't know. Really, honestly, you know, I never felt like I was

being carried on anybody's shoulders are being you know lauded in any way ever but um



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jgreen: You know, I got I got people did say a lot of people did say nice things to me and they thought

they were they were glad that I was president right but I think



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jgreen: I think, really, it was a matter of timing, I think, you know, there was enough ground swell of

trans people who are in medical school trans people who are becoming professionals trans people who

were



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jgreen: At well and parents and and people



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jgreen: You know, really beginning to wake up to the fact that we needed an organization like this. Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah.



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jgreen: You know, and that it needed to be more proactive and and I was



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jgreen: You know, I was trying to take it proactive. Mm hmm. And so I think it wasn't so much about me

as much as about the time



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Evan Taylor: Right, okay. And about just sort of what needed to be done at that time that was



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jgreen: Right, right. But I don't think the organization would have been ready if I hadn't already been

there.



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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



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jgreen: perfectly honest, because it was it was not easy to make the things happen that that happened.



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Evan Taylor: Oh yeah, I'm just picturing I remember you saying the last time we talked, and there's this

very vivid image that I have



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Evan Taylor: A few sort of you know that I've created from what you're telling me where I'm picturing

you just sort of sitting there and what it means to be a trans person trying to be part of a trans

organization and having



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Evan Taylor: Sis folks and non trans folks, whatever, turning away from you when you're trying to speak

like it's it's literally the most invisible eyes and disappearing act you can do to turn away. And that's

supposed to be not just a safe space. It's supposed to be active proactive.



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jgreen: You know, it's not. It was never intended to be that it was never intended to be that



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Evan Taylor: And it's not just where you felt it need you needed to take it. Yep. Yeah, it's mostly. How

did that feel to you in that moment, I mean it's personal question. But what was that emotional

experience for you.



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It was



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jgreen: It was very upsetting. And ultimately, when I ended my presidency, I realized they actually feel

like I have PTSD.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm wondering. Yes.



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jgreen: And it's taken it's taken a while to recover.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And, and I do have some resentment and anger.



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jgreen: Around you know that there are people on that board. And there are people in the organization

who are wonderful, who were so supportive and who appreciate me very, very much. And it was a very

painful, painful process.



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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. I mean, it takes somebody with a certain kind of personality to be able to

withstand that.



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jgreen: I think, you know, being trained in corporate America was helpful.



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Evan Taylor: Know, with a cutthroat approach.



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jgreen: Well, not so much cutthroat because I never have been cutthroat myself, but I



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jgreen: I am patient



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jgreen: Mm hmm. I am you know and I, you know, there's a bad connotation here opportunistic





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jgreen: Right now I can wait to see what the when, where the opportunities will be



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jgreen: Gotcha. I don't just make a quick blanket assessment and say, oh, this is stupid.



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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jgreen: Walk away.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. When I see potential. I can wait to develop it.



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Evan Taylor: And would you, what would you say that that's a conscious strategic way that you do that

kind of activism. Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: What are some other strategies that you learn sort of in a corporate world that you brought

to the to the board in that way.





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jgreen: Well, um,



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jgreen: Another really interesting thing



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jgreen: Is



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jgreen: There were people on the board who didn't want anyone to be involved, who they didn't know

they didn't want strangers to be nominated for positions and to take to come in to just sort of appear in

leadership. They wanted people to be



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jgreen: groomed by the existing board members and, you know, that kind of thing.



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Evan Taylor: Great and



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jgreen: I kept telling them, look, you cannot grow if you do not welcome strangers.



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jgreen: And



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Evan Taylor: thing over and over again without another perspective.



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jgreen: Right. And, you know, as a manager myself when I was managing in corporate America I. One of

the things that that I always knew that with to to develop people. You have to let them make mistakes.



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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



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jgreen: And you have to



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jgreen: You have to, and you have to let people have autonomy autonomy and be able to exert their

own judgment and make their own decisions. Mm hmm. Because otherwise they won't be engaged.



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jgreen: Right and so



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jgreen: You know, that's the way I lead F TMI. For example, and it is even as you know as at F TMI.



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jgreen: Because was an all volunteer organization. It's different than when you are in a management

position in a corporation and you have you have real authority.



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jgreen: I never assumed I had real authority and if TMI, other than to remind people about what our

goals were to remind people about the values that I thought we needed to preserve that Lou Sullivan

had originally



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jgreen: Expressed and values that as we grew I introduced because I knew that we had to. We were a

service organization down the path is not a service organization. Right, right. W path is a professional

membership organization for you know that educates professionals. Mm hmm.



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Evan Taylor: And the authority as much difference in that in that environment.



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Right.



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jgreen: And we, the trans community need an organization like W path to exert its authority on trans

people. Hmm. Right, not about controlling trans people, right, which is what people have always

thought



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Evan Taylor: Yes, right.



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jgreen: And that's not why the organization began



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Mm hmm.



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jgreen: It began, because there were



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jgreen: They well the the university based programs in the United States and North America that have

arisen in the 60s were being shut down.



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jgreen: Right. And people like Janice Raymond we're actively



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jgreen: petitioning Congress to shut down any kind of



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jgreen: Payments for



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jgreen: Trans medicine.



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jgreen: Right and



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jgreen: When you know as well as people became desperate they would, they began to go to surgeons

who were doing like back alley abortions, but they were doing back alley trans surgery.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And they're one of the one of the famous ones was guiding john brown right who

operated up and down the West Coast primarily in California and Mexico.





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jgreen: And he he did surgeries in garages.



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jgreen: without anesthesia.



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jgreen: And he killed people and he left people to bleed out and he left people maimed and, you know,

and some of the surgeries were successful. Some of his work was actually decent



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jgreen: But



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Evan Taylor: When they say about a broken clock and all that.



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jgreen: Right. You know, I've talked to people who he was. Their surgeon and they were really



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jgreen: Grateful





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Evan Taylor: Were there folks who actually were satisfied or just grateful.



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jgreen: I can't answer that question.



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Evan Taylor: Okay, okay.



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jgreen: They are deceased. Now I'm okay. But, um, yeah.



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jgreen: And and



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jgreen: The way he was doing surgery, you know the the professionals who began the the aerie

Benjamin international gender dysphoria Association organized it and and incorporated it



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jgreen: In 1979





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jgreen: And broke the first standards of care. Basically, the first standards of care were about what

patients should expect okay and that surgeons shouldn't overcharge



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Evan Taylor: And that surgeons needed



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jgreen: To be



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jgreen: Respectful



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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jgreen: And things like that. But it was a very, it was, you know, tiny little document like two pages.



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jgreen: You know,





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Evan Taylor: It was meant to create to the very first time way to prevent for the negative connotation of

opportunistic that was happening right by surgeons got. Right, right.



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jgreen: And basically, to say that this was a legitimate science.



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jgreen: And that definitely more study needed to be done. And in terms of who trans people are and

what trans people need and how trans people best can be treated. Right. But, you know, they shouldn't

be exploited and they shouldn't be objectified



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jgreen: And they shouldn't be overcharged



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jgreen: Right. Those were the major points of the original standards of care. Hey,



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Evan Taylor: I think it's fascinating that there's this connection right away to this overcharging that there

was a financial motivation on people's behalf or providing care in that theory air quoted way.



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jgreen: Well, you know, because things started out as sort of a research context and they began in

university settings.



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jgreen: And



144

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jgreen: When that search started being dismantled.



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jgreen: And things went commercial then and people like Janice Raymond were petitioning Congress to

end it. And Congress was telling insurance companies that this should not be covered.



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Right.



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jgreen: That basically instructed physicians that they will never be reimbursed for this care. So they have

to do it under the table. Mm hmm.



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Evan Taylor: As literally driving it underground in that way. They were yeah



149



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jgreen: And so that made that actually opened up the opportunities for people like drunk brown. Right.

Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: What when you first came, they came into the into the organization. What was your sort of

what was, what did you envision, did you see that this was going to be the place you product to or was

that you know that that just sort of develop along the way.



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jgreen: Um,



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jgreen: What I wanted was an organization that would take public stances. I'm okay and and I actually

made that happen because it was not an organization that was doing that in the first public stance, we

took out beyond the standards of care and I also complained



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jgreen: loudly that the standards were in efficient insufficient and that they were not they were not

adequate right and that they were not communicative and



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jgreen: Eli again Eli was in charge of the of the standards and he would not allow me to be appointed as

a member of the Standards Committee.



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jgreen: And he



156

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jgreen: He just. He was very dismissive. You know, he told me, you know, call me anytime you know

when you have a question while, blah, blah. Call me



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jgreen: And so I can call in and say, look, these issues, keep coming up. Why don't we amend the

standards of care, so that this can be addressed. And he's like,



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jgreen: These are not big issues, you know, people have people have problems than they didn't get hold

of me and I write a letter explaining what the standards mean. And I said, look, if you have to write a

letter to explain what the standards mean that means the standards need to be rewritten.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. No.



160

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jgreen: No one should have to require a letter explaining it.



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Evan Taylor: Right wrap





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jgreen: So, you know,



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jgreen: It's just, yeah. Eventually he did let me join the Standards Committee, but that was after I was

already



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jgreen: I'd already made. I made them well.



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jgreen: In my activism outside of W path trying to change trying to remove exclusions from insurance

policies.



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jgreen: Right, I thought. And also, you know, talking with a lot of the lawyers about the cases that they

were raising that they were bringing to court, having to do with people being denied care.



167

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jgreen: I thought we needed a strong statement from W path about medical necessity. Um, and so I

wrote it and



168



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jgreen: Along with in my friend Andre Wilson helped him helped me write it and



169

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jgreen: I get it took me six months to get the board to agree that we could release it.



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jgreen: And this is the first time they'd ever released this statement.



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jgreen: And



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jgreen: Position taking a position.



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Right.



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jgreen: And so



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jgreen: What really was amazing was how important that statement turned out to be. Hmm.



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jgreen: You know lawyers will say that this you know it completely changed the game.



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jgreen: Right and



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jgreen: You know, not too long ago, there was



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jgreen: There was a debate somewhere where there was a lawyer involved and a representative of an

insurance company, a major insurance company in the United States involved in



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jgreen: The insurance company person who happened to be a trans woman.



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jgreen: Was basically taking the insurance company position and saying that, you know, we're never

going to pay for, I don't know the exact content of the conversation. So I'm just making this up as an

example of how this



182



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jgreen: Play approach was



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jgreen: Yeah, that she said, you know, we're never going to pay for electrolysis. Right. You know, or

facial reconstruction and



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jgreen: You know, and that



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jgreen: You know, and that what insurance companies have to say is taken seriously and the attorney

who happened to be a trans man said, well, judges pay a lot more attention to the WPS standards of

care, then they do to insurance policy language.



186

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jgreen: Um, which is true.



187

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Evan Taylor: Yes, definitely. Certainly, is it certainly played out that way. Yeah.



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jgreen: But it wouldn't it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't started with the statements and then as

when the new standards came out in 2012 2011 technically but 2012 officially





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jgreen: They include incorporated a lot of the principles that we'd already did. We have issued

statements about



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Evan Taylor: So that that context was already sitting, sitting there and it allowed it to be heard in a

different way.



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jgreen: Right, so I wrote all of those public policy statements. Okay, and



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jgreen: Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: And then at that point where we had you you if you're in the middle of your, your law

degree at that point.



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jgreen: Yes, I began my I began my law degree and I began my last Legal Studies in 2003 and I actually

finished writing my dissertation in 2010



195



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jgreen: And defend it in 2011 and



196

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jgreen: Was awarded that degree. Right.



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Evan Taylor: So all of this was going. I'm wondering how much you know



198

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Evan Taylor: Your experience both in corporate world and having at that point. Some beginning legal

knowledge was starting to shape how you were able to to to do this activism in a way that perhaps you

know no one else would have been able to do



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jgreen: Yeah, I think I was uniquely positioned I you know I taught legal writing in mid 70s at law school

in in Oregon.



200

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jgreen: In a special program for women and minorities who were conditionally admitted to law school.



201

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Evan Taylor: Oh,





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jgreen: Interesting. And so I've always been had a focus on legal communication in addition to the

technical medical communications stuff that I've been exposed to in corporate in corporate world and



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jgreen: And so, and so I was advising in working with the lead of the trans lawyers way early on, long

before I started my



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jgreen: My studies.



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Evan Taylor: Wow, I didn't realize that you did you actually started your laundry, you know, 2030 years

before you finished it.



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jgreen: No, I didn't start it. I didn't start by law degree. I actually taught



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Evan Taylor: Oh, wow. Wow.



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jgreen: Yeah I yeah it was it was sort of a fluke kind of a thing and that





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jgreen: A friend of mine who had known since junior high school was we were sharing an apartment and



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jgreen: And she was



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jgreen: SHE WAS SHE WAS CHINESE,



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jgreen: And from Oakland and



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jgreen: And we, you know, we've known each other since junior high, and I was at that point of cables

construction cable splicer



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jgreen: A master fine arts degree and creative writing and



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jgreen: And she came home from class one day and was just really angry and upset and you know she

turns out she was having a big argument with her legal writing instructor and



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jgreen: And she had to rewrite this paper. And I said, well, let me see it. And she goes, oh, will you

understand it. And I said, Well, just let me see it. And so I read it over and they said, Okay, three things.

Number one,



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jgreen: This your instructor does not like or know how to teach writing. Number two, she's trying to get

you to understand that this construct here.



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jgreen: Is where you are losing your argument and you need to phrase this in a different way. You need

to you know and i and i explained that. And then number three, you will not learn this by rewriting this

paper now.



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jgreen: Hmm, I suggest you do is go back to class tomorrow and tell your instructor, you, you cannot

rewrite this paper.



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jgreen: That you understand she's trying to get you to understand this thing. What you're going to do is

analyze a different case right a different paper showing demonstrating that you can that you understand

what she's trying to tell you



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Evan Taylor: This concept.



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jgreen: Right. And if that doesn't work if she



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jgreen: If the instructor doesn't like that paper, then you'll go back and rewrite this paper.



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jgreen: Hmm. And she goes, I can't do that. I said, you have to because both of you need to learn how to

how writing works.



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jgreen: Um, and she did it. She went back to school the next day she did the whole thing. It was all

successful every, you know, the first the instructor was like why you know really angry, but she stood

her ground and it worked out. And everybody grew and learned and years later.



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jgreen: After she had graduated from law school they appointed, my friend, the head of this Summer

Institute program that they had which was they had a Summer Institute.



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jgreen: For women and minority students who had been conditionally admitted to law school. Gotcha.

They went through a two month long course they took civil procedure.



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jgreen: Contracts torts legal writing. And I think one other class like maybe criminal law or something.



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jgreen: And then and I and I was appointed to teach legal writing



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Evan Taylor: Hmm.



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jgreen: And when and what what I did was I sort of followed along



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jgreen: There, from what I did in this sort of blew everybody away the I only hold held one class. It was

the the opening class. Okay. And I explained



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jgreen: What my procedure was going to be and how I was going to work with everybody. And the first

assignment was I wanted them to write me 500 words.



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jgreen: On what they did for their summer vacation. Okay. And they were all angry. They said, We came

here to study law. We want to write about the law, blah, blah, blah. I said, that's nice. You'll have plenty

of time to do that, I want this assignment.



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Evan Taylor: But you need to raise about the law. So the writing comes first. Right.



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jgreen: So with that, and then when I then when I got there first papers on a case. I could



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jgreen: Look at their different writing sample differences.



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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jgreen: And I could find what the problems were that they had



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And, you know, nobody told me to do this. I mean, this is completely intuitive.





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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



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And



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jgreen: And as a result, and I worked really closely with each student and basically help them understand

writing and improve their ability to communicate on paper with words about the law.



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jgreen: Right. It stayed a little bit ahead of them in each of their classes. And so the assignments that I

that I made had to do with the work that they were studying



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Evan Taylor: And so this is like I'm hearing this right now as a sort of a, what, what's the, what's the word



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Evan Taylor: Something when something bad is going to happen. You can tell like a like almost like a not

not not a premonition but just the



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Evan Taylor: Foreshadowing that's the word I'm looking for, I'm hearing this as a foreshadow into the

work that you eventually have to do to teach people how to write about medicine. Yep.



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Evan Taylor: And is that something that you were very conscious of at the time that you were having to

do that at w, pal.



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jgreen: No, it's just intuitive.



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Hmm.



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Evan Taylor: It's a it doesn't reflect a particular value for you in how it is that people write and

communicate



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jgreen: Well, I wanted to be a writer from the time I was like seven years old, because I knew that

writing had an emotional and physical effect on people. Right.



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jgreen: Gotcha. And as I as I grew up, I realized that language really is.





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jgreen: It's the medium of government. It's the medium of education. It's the medium of law and

medicine. I mean, it's particularly that medium of law.



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jgreen: And



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jgreen: And that it basically has a huge amount of control over us. Then how people write laws and how

people write regulations and give instructions.



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jgreen: Are is



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jgreen: Is pretty sloppy.



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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Yeah.



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jgreen: In many cases, right, and creates lots and lots of problems.





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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Especially when you're dealing with a community that's so so marginalized.



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jgreen: Naturalized vulnerable often damaged.



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jgreen: Fearful



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jgreen: Yeah, and traumatized. Right. And so, so that was



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jgreen: I realized that I had a particular combination of skills.



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jgreen: That would allow me to



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jgreen: Have an impact and maybe subtle, you know, I was never going to be, you know, never going to

be a movie star is there going to be a comedian. I was never going to be somebody who





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jgreen: You know, that was never going to be a political candidate. I was never going to stand up in front

of the room and export people to revolution.



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jgreen: But I could change the world.



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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Definitely. And I mean it took somebody with the, you know, that,

that, that very that very old movie line. No, I have a very particular set of skills.



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Evan Taylor: And it took a very particular set of skills to be able to make change at that time. And

somebody very uniquely positioned to be able to take those skills. Yeah.



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jgreen: So like, you know, for instance, in the last was the last, the last board election.



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jgreen: Excuse me. I can't remember. I guess it was in the election to the board where I was.



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jgreen: I was moving off because my my term is past president was Andy right and



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jgreen: In Marci Bowers had been elected to to start her term on the board at that point when when I

dropped off. Not that there was that I mean that was the timing. That was the connection not. Yeah.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah, it was just



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jgreen: My seat or anything like that. But so Marci Bowers, and we we saw it ran into each other in some

other context.



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jgreen: And, you know, we've known each other for many years, and she's and she goes, I just can't wait

to get in there and on the board and I shake things up. I'm gonna do this, I'm going to do that. I said, you

know,



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jgreen: I can understand the I know people are frustrated. I know you know i know that you personally

Marcy have been abused in the context of W path meetings because when you presented some of your

surgical techniques, years ago, people yelled at you and you know i mean



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jgreen: Yeah yeah people. Yeah, people really aggressive. I mean, when people are presenting in science

stuff.



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jgreen: They can be really aggressive with each other.



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Evan Taylor: Yeah, I'm from the humanity. So this is new to me.



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jgreen: It's really awful.



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Evan Taylor: And it wasn't. They didn't like her techniques or they just didn't



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jgreen: I disagree. I think that's a bad idea. Where are you know i mean real human that's not so



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Evan Taylor: So you're you're talking to in this context of saying I'm aware that all this has happened and

you're pretty



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jgreen: I'm aware of that. All this has happened and I know you want you want it. You know, you're

going to sit into it in a seat of power and you have a chance to retaliate, you know, think that's a good

idea.



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jgreen: Mm hmm. I, I know you can make a huge contribution. I know that you can make progress, you

know, make progressive change but I advise you to sit and listen for a while before you jumped in.



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jgreen: Great because you don't know who all is in the room. You don't know where they're coming

from. You don't know what their vulnerabilities are right.



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jgreen: And you don't know what's going to act activate them or make them reactive



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jgreen: Mm hmm. And until you learn those things, you won't be able to influence them.



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Evan Taylor: Right. And also she she'd been away for a while and you've been there knew that there

have been some changes already happening. So you're kind of encouraging her to come in and take a

look and just get the lay of the land first before you start shaking it up.



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jgreen: Exactly, yeah.



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Evan Taylor: Who were folks like did you have folks like that for you that offer to you that kind of

mentorship or taught you how to do activism in that way.



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Evan Taylor: Trans or otherwise. And, you know, some people might say their mother or whatever, right

but but were there folks that taught you, you know how to how to how to have that patients yourself.



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jgreen: I don't know. Hmm.



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jgreen: And I think about my father and he and I used to argue all the time about politics and stuff.



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jgreen: Okay, but his you know his advice was you can't change City Hall. You can't fight City Hall, you

know, you can't, you know, you'll never have power.



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Evan Taylor: You never need



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jgreen: But he knew me. He knew



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jgreen: That I was the kind of person that would take a challenge. If you told me I couldn't do something



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jgreen: You know, I would do it.



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Evan Taylor: And. Give it, give it a good try.



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Evan Taylor: Interesting.



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jgreen: So yeah, I mean, if it was a challenge that I felt ready to take on



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I wouldn't



307

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jgreen: And



308

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jgreen: Yeah, I mean, so



309

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jgreen: But I can. I can't say that.



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jgreen: Well, you know, my mother did tell me when in arguing with my father, she said that old adage

you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.



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Evan Taylor: Right, yeah, you know,



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jgreen: So that was one thing, of course, that made me mad when she told me that you



313

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jgreen: Are not going to just be nice, because he's being mean to me. That's crazy.



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Evan Taylor: Right.



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Evan Taylor: But eventually this end up being your, you know, the way that you were able to get, you

know, get your way in and change the lines of buying being able to listen and combat back, you know, in

a way, they could hear it.



316

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jgreen: But I also, I also think a lot comes from my own physical experience in the world because I was

so



317

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jgreen: non binary as a child as a young adult



318

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jgreen: You know, people could not tell what sex. I was right.



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jgreen: I was constantly having to figure out what are they thinking, what are they going to do. Are they

going to attack me, are they, you know what, you know, and I was attacked, you know, many times and I

was ridiculed and I was teased and



320

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jgreen: And I was threatened. Mm hmm. And so I was pretty aware of my space right wherever I went

any, you know, whenever I went any place in public.





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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



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jgreen: And so, you know, when I walk into a corporation to go to work. You know, I was



323

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jgreen: I was always good to check out the lay of the land.



324

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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. There's a certain



325

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Evan Taylor: On guardedness you know that happens. I think for folks. So then when you walk in a room

and something I you know



326

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Evan Taylor: That that certainly nowadays people of color, talk about in certain in certain ways, but you

know as as as a white man that's not usually what someone's going to say to you, but



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Evan Taylor: You're very aware of what we call the scan. Right. You walk in a room and you do a quick

scan. Is there anyone else like me and here. Where's the threats like it's just this quick



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Evan Taylor: It's it's it's nanoseconds, but it's a quick scan. Am I the only one in the room has a family.

Yep. And that's a trauma response is, you know, really.



329

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jgreen: Yeah, well, and I've, I've had that that skill I have from my whole life.



330

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Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. I mean, in some ways, I have to reflect back in somebody who's up a very

different, you know, generation who has benefited from all this work that you've done and the it's it's so



331

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Evan Taylor: Terrifying and some ways to hear that you had to do that. Scan so consciously in in in a

space like a big dollar W pathway, you know, whatever reincarnation. It wasn't the time



332

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Evan Taylor: That that you had to do that in that space is is actually terrifying, in some ways, you know,

to me, for my generation, and I can't you know I can't imagine feel it was just like, well, this is the only

way to survive. Right. It's the only way to make it through.



333

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jgreen: Well, it's a lot safer now.





334

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jgreen: Mm hmm. W path than it used to be.



335

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Right.



336

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jgreen: And



337

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jgreen: Then I think I really played a big part in that.



338

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Evan Taylor: Yeah, I think so. I mean, yours, yours is the name that comes up. As you know, this was this

was the president where that change shifted, you know, and I think it's so much about that that legal

writing and the the positions that you took



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jgreen: Well, also, you know, during my presidency, I actually instituted as as a I treated the organization

as a business because it's a 501 C three corporation right here's a business it's structured as a business

never ran it as a business.



340



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jgreen: Hmm, and as a result they never grew



341

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Evan Taylor: To the rumble bit more like a clock.



342

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jgreen: Yeah, they rent. Yeah, kind of. And they were, you know, to be perfectly honest, it from the

being beginning they were afraid to draw too much attention to themselves.



343

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jgreen: Um, because there was so much antipathy toward the fact that they were treating trans people,

or even talking to trans people.



344

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jgreen: That, that, you know, whenever people would publish articles in the professional journals, like

the surgery journals, in particular the subsequent issues would have letters to the editor from other

readers.



345

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jgreen: Chris criticizing the journal for publishing such trash. Right. Yeah.



346

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Evan Taylor: It was it was Geraldo level trash.





347

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Right.



348

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jgreen: So, you know, there was so there was in there, a lot of the professionals did not talk to their

peers outside of the organization.



349

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jgreen: Their professional peers did not know they were treating trans people.



350

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Evan Taylor: And it's because they were worried about sort of backlash within their the



351

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Evan Taylor: Progression. Yeah. Right. Exactly.



352

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Evan Taylor: I'm wondering, so I remember something, he said to me last time we talked. I'm wondering

if there's a connection here where the work that you did.



353

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Evan Taylor: You know, just after Lou cells and died and where he said, you know, we need to start being

more visible I'm



354

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Evan Taylor: I'm going to come out to, like, I'm going to let people know I'm going to say this, I'm going

to be visible, you know, to use your word very literally.



355

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Evan Taylor: And then with what you did with w path where it say no, we need to be visible about this

work and we need to be out of it and I'm seeing this. Both of these have been very connected



356

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Evan Taylor: We're



357

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Evan Taylor: Much of your role was creating visibility and saying we shouldn't be hiding about this.



358

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jgreen: Right. That's right, contracts. And so within the community. I was doing education within the

community, not only about, you know, losing our fear overcoming our shame.



359

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jgreen: But about homophobia and trans phobia internalized trans phobia.





360

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jgreen: Homophobia was a big huge factor.



361

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jgreen: In the late 80s.



362

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jgreen: early 90s. Right. And yeah and and both within, within the trans women's community which I still

think has problems with trans men, um, you know, it was, it was much worse than it is now.



363

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Hmm.



364

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Evan Taylor: Tell me more about what was it, what was going on, then that has changed now.



365

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jgreen: Well, there were there were a few people in any given thing like say like International

Foundation for gender education.



366

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jgreen: Big organization that drew that tried to draw people from local groups local support groups all

over the country and there were hundreds of them for trans women and almost nothing for

transmitted. Mm hmm.



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jgreen: Then at their annual meetings when people who come from all over the country to attend they,

you know, they would get up. Anybody, any speaker would get up on the stage and say, ladies.



368

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Evan Taylor: Ah,



369

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Evan Taylor: So if you're trans man that ruin me immediately here. It says, if you're not there. Exactly. Or

you're being completely nuts gender.



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Evan Taylor: Either way, exactly right.



371

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jgreen: And there were people always add. You know, they would always make comments about



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00:41:30.690 --> 00:41:39.210

jgreen: You know you well they make comments about how handsome. We were and because they

wanted to hear how beautiful they were





373

00:41:39.750 --> 00:41:43.380

jgreen: Right. And that wasn't we didn't really have that



374

00:41:44.490 --> 00:41:58.380

jgreen: It wasn't a big deal. I mean, it was nice, but it wasn't a big deal. So I learned at that at those

conferences, how important it was to give people feedback about their appearance, which I had never

ever done in real in my life.



375

00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:03.210

jgreen: Context in my life and didn't expect it for myself.



376

00:42:03.390 --> 00:42:03.990

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



377

00:42:04.560 --> 00:42:08.040

jgreen: You know, so I had to train myself to do that in order to



378

00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:13.710

jgreen: In order to build relationship.



379

00:42:14.550 --> 00:42:16.830



jgreen: Mm hmm. And also,



380

00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:33.510

jgreen: Also, I was I trained myself very consciously never to look for at a person and think, Okay, this is

a cross dresser. What do they look like when they're dressed as a male



381

00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:47.280

jgreen: You know, or or that or that person dressed as a male could be a cross dresser. What are they

going to look like when they're dressed as a woman, or even, you know, or to to put make any kind of



382

00:42:48.810 --> 00:42:51.960

jgreen: cross gender interpretations



383

00:42:51.990 --> 00:42:56.190

jgreen: About anyone I just trained myself to blank it out.



384

00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.210

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Just



385

00:42:57.240 --> 00:42:58.500

jgreen: Don't go there.



386



00:42:58.680 --> 00:42:59.610

Evan Taylor: Huh. It's



387

00:42:59.640 --> 00:43:08.250

jgreen: Useless. It's not what these people are about. And it's not what I'm about. And it's not it's not

about what we look like



388

00:43:08.370 --> 00:43:09.960

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. We



389

00:43:10.020 --> 00:43:16.950

Evan Taylor: Are. Yes, I remember going to me, recalling when you're talking about that, going to the

very you know for myself. The very first



390

00:43:17.610 --> 00:43:25.560

Evan Taylor: Wasn't gender Odyssey back then when it was when it was just the MDM conference. And I

remember going to go into that and, you know, at that time, it was the



391

00:43:26.100 --> 00:43:30.360

Evan Taylor: Basically only space, you know, 15 minutes about 2005 and you



392

00:43:30.870 --> 00:43:38.010

Evan Taylor: Know, even a bit earlier, actually, you know, a couple years earlier. It was the only space at

that time that I'd ever. I think that existed in basically North America that was





393

00:43:38.370 --> 00:43:51.300

Evan Taylor: trans masculine predominant. You know, there's lots of other conferences, but they were

more, you know, transcendent dominant and this was the only one which is basket on it. And I

remember being there and it was a very weird thing and I and and I remember talking to



394

00:43:52.350 --> 00:43:58.710

Evan Taylor: To Lucas Walter about this as well and and he said he had the same experience where the

very first time we went to one of these conference where we're in



395

00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:07.560

Evan Taylor: A space that is predominantly trans masculine, you kind of forgot about it and you forgot

about it until three days later, you went back home.



396

00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:13.230

Evan Taylor: And you realize that you're now thinking everyone's trans all the time you're assuming that

they're all trends and



397

00:44:13.590 --> 00:44:28.620

Evan Taylor: What a complete mind trip that was to realize that within three days my entire worldview

had shifted and I didn't even notice it because there I was exactly like you're saying that wasn't who

people were to me. I just assumed they were all trans and then got to know them as people.



398

00:44:29.130 --> 00:44:32.220

Evan Taylor: Right, completely different contracts than I'd ever had before.





399

00:44:32.550 --> 00:44:36.300

Evan Taylor: Yep. Yeah. And so I just had sort of what your experience.



400

00:44:37.050 --> 00:44:37.710

jgreen: Yes.



401

00:44:37.890 --> 00:44:38.430

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



402

00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:43.170

jgreen: Yeah, so, so that's so are you know I was processing this stuff.



403

00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:47.880

jgreen: In back in the early 90s.



404

00:44:48.750 --> 00:45:06.990

jgreen: And thinking about, okay, how do we learn to communicate with each other. How do we learn to

improve our situation can't continue to just meet once a quarter or once a month or once a year in

these, you know, dark hotel rooms.



405

00:45:08.250 --> 00:45:15.510



jgreen: You know, and these ballrooms of of hotels and pretend that everything's okay yeah this is not

the way to live.



406

00:45:16.680 --> 00:45:28.800

jgreen: You know, it's great to go have fun. It's great to get together. I love that. But I know because I

watched people fall apart at the end of these conferences. Yeah, because they're leaving



407

00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:38.280

jgreen: Mm hmm. Because now they have to go back to their real life yes yeah and and how miserable.

They were



408

00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:48.510

jgreen: In. I'm like, No, we can't. We have to bring our real life into this space and we have to take this

space out to our real life.



409

00:45:48.630 --> 00:45:51.990

jgreen: Mm hmm. This is who we are.



410

00:45:52.200 --> 00:46:00.120

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. The consciousness in some way. We're part of that not hiding. We're part of that

not being visible and if we can you know that



411

00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:11.160



Evan Taylor: for social reasons that's fine you know over like just to get together. But then there's what

do we do, like, how do we improve our lives that we have to go back to so that we don't have that

crushing depression on the Tuesday morning, but we need to go.



412

00:46:11.910 --> 00:46:23.880

Evan Taylor: Right, yeah. And so when you first sort of started thinking about this in the, in the early 90s,

were there other trans folks that you were able to talk to about it that had similar approaches.



413

00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.100

jgreen: Um,



414

00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:29.280

jgreen: I mean, I talked to my friends.



415

00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:30.810

jgreen: But



416

00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:43.710

jgreen: Nobody really had and I don't even think I did at the time. Nobody really had a concrete idea

about how to change things. Or, you know, I talked to people about



417

00:46:46.620 --> 00:47:07.260

jgreen: We need better communication from the doctors, hey, we need better support to get our rights

from politicians we need better. We need to form relationships with with politicians in order to so that

they can see that we're human beings. Right. You know, that sort of stuff.





418

00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:08.160

Mm hmm.



419

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:11.040

But



420

00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:22.350

jgreen: You know, and then and then various people had different ideas like okay, we're going to have a

lobby day. Okay, we're going to, we're going to go to



421

00:47:23.070 --> 00:47:32.460

jgreen: We're going to have our little regular social event. But then we're all going to get on a bus or get

on the subway and we're going to go over to Congress.



422

00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:34.800

Evan Taylor: I'm right.



423

00:47:36.150 --> 00:47:37.440

jgreen: And, you know,



424

00:47:38.370 --> 00:47:42.510



Evan Taylor: And then that sort of evolved from there and then it became the more the focus and



425

00:47:42.600 --> 00:47:53.460

Evan Taylor: Right, right. And so thinking there's also this line that happened around 2000 where

suddenly the internet was more mainstream for folks to right so there's



426

00:47:53.700 --> 00:47:59.460

Evan Taylor: Really changed how you were doing, you know, communication in the 90s with must been

very different than communication in the early 2000s.



427

00:48:00.180 --> 00:48:01.140

Yes.



428

00:48:02.520 --> 00:48:05.190

jgreen: Well you know I left him I in in



429

00:48:06.570 --> 00:48:08.460

jgreen: August of 1999



430

00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:10.620

jgreen: Okay, and I



431



00:48:12.180 --> 00:48:18.810

jgreen: You know, had not been elected to the w pegboard yet okay and



432

00:48:20.130 --> 00:48:29.970

jgreen: I had already established a lot of connections internationally with activists all over the world and



433

00:48:32.220 --> 00:48:32.940

jgreen: You know, it wasn't



434

00:48:34.950 --> 00:48:38.100

jgreen: I still wanted. I was I wanted to write a book.



435

00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:45.990

jgreen: And I wanted, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Exactly. I didn't want to lead an organization.



436

00:48:47.850 --> 00:48:50.250

jgreen: I didn't want to start a new organization, but



437

00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:58.170

jgreen: At that moment, just before the turn of the century.



438

00:48:59.190 --> 00:49:08.220



jgreen: Dallas Denny called me up and said we want to start an organization called gender education

and advocacy, it will be completely online.



439

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:15.120

jgreen: Um, and we want you to join the board and we want you to be the chair of the board.



440

00:49:16.410 --> 00:49:17.730

jgreen: And I said,



441

00:49:23.040 --> 00:49:23.790

jgreen: These names.



442

00:49:27.810 --> 00:49:28.740

jgreen: But of course they did it.



443

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:33.000

Evan Taylor: And do it. Was it just necessity.



444

00:49:33.870 --> 00:49:37.500

jgreen: Will it was opportunity again to communicate.



445

00:49:37.950 --> 00:49:38.340



Right.



446

00:49:39.750 --> 00:49:43.170

jgreen: And some of the things that we did actually were were pretty powerful.



447

00:49:46.050 --> 00:49:49.020

jgreen: We produce little public service announcements like



448

00:49:51.150 --> 00:50:02.850

jgreen: Dangerous curves was one of them. It's a little poster that had like a traffic sign with occur, you

know, the curvy road and says, dangerous curves and it talks about



449

00:50:03.990 --> 00:50:06.270

jgreen: The dangers of silicone injection



450

00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:08.610

jgreen: And



451

00:50:09.720 --> 00:50:25.200

jgreen: We talked to, we had, we had flyers that we put, you know, we create and post and then

distribute at conferences and things like that. Also about I think we had something about HIV, we had

something about



452



00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:29.550

jgreen: We had a bunch of them. They're probably still out there on the web.



453

00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:30.720

Evan Taylor: Yeah yeah I'm



454

00:50:30.930 --> 00:50:31.350

Evan Taylor: In Dallas.



455

00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:33.210

Evan Taylor: Dallas probably has come up on the agent side.



456

00:50:33.930 --> 00:50:45.840

jgreen: Definitely, definitely. So yeah, so Dallas. It was Dallas and Jessica Xavier and me and Sandra Cole

and Glenn Smith and



457

00:50:47.550 --> 00:50:49.680

jgreen: And Penny



458

00:50:53.430 --> 00:50:56.970

jgreen: She had a hyphenated last name mats was part of it.



459



00:50:59.100 --> 00:51:01.830

jgreen: Anyway, and Penny died is Penny ran the



460

00:51:03.030 --> 00:51:10.830

jgreen: The news service basically which collected news and then distributed it all over the place.



461

00:51:10.980 --> 00:51:13.230

jgreen: Okay, told people what was going on.



462

00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:21.300

jgreen: In the, in the political and social realm about trans issues. Mm hmm. And



463

00:51:23.640 --> 00:51:30.870

jgreen: Then we we did educational presentations. We did. We did our we did our little fire things and



464

00:51:31.950 --> 00:51:38.520

jgreen: Jessica went on to do the incredible epidemiology research and



465

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:40.890

Evan Taylor: I know that name from. Thank you for having me.



466

00:51:41.220 --> 00:51:47.040



jgreen: Yep. And she ultimately worked for NIH. Mm hmm. And



467

00:51:48.060 --> 00:51:48.900

jgreen: You know, I mean, it's a



468

00:51:50.010 --> 00:52:03.420

jgreen: Big deal on of course Gwen had invented the transgender Day of Remembrance, and you can t

do our site was through gender education and advocacy.



469

00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:04.710

jgreen: Eventually that



470

00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.640

Separated



471

00:52:07.020 --> 00:52:25.770

jgreen: When went on to do other things. I started my law school stuff my PhD and and I had to in 2003

and 2003 and I had to step back, Dallas got busy with a bunch of other stuff and so be sort of it all sort of

disappointed.



472

00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:30.210

jgreen: Penny is passed away, Sandra whole passed away.



473



00:52:33.030 --> 00:52:46.860

jgreen: And Dallas and I are still doing stuff together and Jesse is sort of retired and glamorous still

writing stuff for var I think and and various other outlets.



474

00:52:48.240 --> 00:52:52.980

Evan Taylor: So did the end was this sort of a short lived on online part



475

00:52:53.010 --> 00:52:54.420

jgreen: Of it still out there.



476

00:52:54.690 --> 00:53:03.690

jgreen: Okay, still out there but yeah the the active part was probably sort of died down after 2003



477

00:53:04.290 --> 00:53:09.090

Evan Taylor: And I'm imagining at that point you were deep into writing your book as well. The book.



478

00:53:09.180 --> 00:53:13.530

jgreen: I finished the book in 2003 and it was published in 2004 it was



479

00:53:14.550 --> 00:53:17.760

jgreen: Was when I got when I actually landed the contract.



480



00:53:19.290 --> 00:53:20.370

jgreen: University Press.



481

00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:22.740

jgreen: Gotcha. Yeah, I've been pretty busy.



482

00:53:23.790 --> 00:53:28.170

jgreen: Working on that stuff. And plus, I still am full time job and



483

00:53:30.030 --> 00:53:34.920

jgreen: And was, you know, parenting my kids and stuff. So, yeah.



484

00:53:36.180 --> 00:53:42.120

Evan Taylor: So I'm you know I've asked a little bit about that, that, that moment where the the internet

sort of changed how communication what's happening.



485

00:53:42.390 --> 00:53:50.040

Evan Taylor: What are some of the other sort of, you know, over it. It doesn't have to be necessarily

Internet technology, but what are some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the trans community

over time.



486

00:53:56.850 --> 00:54:04.050

jgreen: I think with that, the biggest one of the biggest changes is people basically coming out.





487

00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:10.830

jgreen: People taking their place in their professions.



488

00:54:12.090 --> 00:54:15.690

jgreen: And not being afraid to say that they're trans



489

00:54:16.080 --> 00:54:16.530

Right.



490

00:54:17.790 --> 00:54:19.320

jgreen: Gotcha. And then



491

00:54:20.430 --> 00:54:22.650

jgreen: Another big change has been



492

00:54:26.460 --> 00:54:28.470

jgreen: The gay community basically



493

00:54:30.870 --> 00:54:31.770

jgreen: Actually



494



00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:44.040

jgreen: I don't, I hesitate to say the word accepting but you know they they recognized ultimately that

they had to incorporate us



495

00:54:44.370 --> 00:54:45.030

Mm hmm.



496

00:54:47.250 --> 00:54:49.950

jgreen: They had to they tried not to. But they hadn't you



497

00:54:50.370 --> 00:54:57.810

jgreen: Mm hmm. And so that was a huge thing but also you know that this was the other



498

00:54:59.160 --> 00:55:06.630

jgreen: The other big thing that the other realm in which I had impact was through the corporate

equality index. Hmm.



499

00:55:08.550 --> 00:55:10.440

jgreen: And I talked about that before.



500

00:55:10.470 --> 00:55:12.510

Evan Taylor: Yeah. You mentioned last time.





501

00:55:13.020 --> 00:55:20.400

Evan Taylor: Okay, and what I'm interested in this piece as well about how it actually you know affected

change that's the piece of it's really, you know, interesting to me.



502

00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:30.000

jgreen: Yeah. So what it did was it was designed essentially to engage corporations and give



503

00:55:31.200 --> 00:55:34.530

jgreen: The Human Rights Campaign, which was the organization that actually



504

00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:47.700

jgreen: oversaw the the index, give them the opportunity to do training, education within corporate

settings. Now, there was another organization that was based in San Francisco.



505

00:55:49.140 --> 00:56:00.540

jgreen: That is called out an equal workplace advocates okay they they they own the workplace. That is

their only focus is workplace is LGBT



506

00:56:02.520 --> 00:56:05.370

jgreen: Workplace success, right.



507

00:56:06.810 --> 00:56:19.320



jgreen: That is the only thing they do, whereas human rights campaign has an educational arm. They

have the health care equality index, they have the corporate equality index, they have their lobbying

arm. Their, their



508

00:56:19.950 --> 00:56:27.720

jgreen: 501 C four arm that does total political advocacy, they do on the ground campaign stuff.



509

00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:35.190

jgreen: All over the country in it. So, so they're big. They're, they're multi tentacles.



510

00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:44.610

jgreen: Organization that's focused in 11 different areas in the workplace project, which is part of the

501 C three foundation



511

00:56:45.660 --> 00:56:56.040

jgreen: They have a very small budget compared to the budget of the out unequal workplace advocates

but HR see got the corporate equality index.



512

00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:03.960

jgreen: Okay, and the corporate equality index is the major workplace it major



513

00:57:05.070 --> 00:57:07.560

jgreen: It's the major workplace intervention.





514

00:57:08.130 --> 00:57:09.330

jgreen: That allowed



515

00:57:10.470 --> 00:57:18.210

jgreen: LGBT people to really have an impact because corporations are competitive.



516

00:57:18.450 --> 00:57:30.210

jgreen: Mm hmm. And somebody gets 100% on the corporate equality index and they've got corporate

peers in their industry.



517

00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:34.950

jgreen: Wait a minute. Those people have 100% of corporate we should have that too.



518

00:57:35.370 --> 00:57:40.170

Evan Taylor: Right, right, which is not visible and measuring that



519

00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:58.320

jgreen: And sounds right. So, so I think I mentioned before that you know the the instrument was

developed by a gay man in San Francisco, who sold it to human rights campaign within with the proviso

that trans issues. Always be included.



520

00:57:59.100 --> 00:58:02.250

Evan Taylor: I didn't realize that part that was part of the proviso selling it.





521

00:58:03.300 --> 00:58:12.000

Evan Taylor: But it. Did you know Did you know this person and what what what motivated him to do

that as a gay man who didn't have a vested interest in that way.



522

00:58:12.030 --> 00:58:15.570

jgreen: Just had a conference, he was just a good guy.



523

00:58:16.590 --> 00:58:22.890

jgreen: And he was super into shareholder advocacy and and and the power of business.



524

00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:33.060

Evan Taylor: Interesting and for him it was, it was just they, you know, this makes two senses, it's both,

you know, an ethical thing. And it's also just good business sense right



525

00:58:33.180 --> 00:58:34.800

Evan Taylor: Exactly. Gotcha.



526

00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:44.010

jgreen: So, and then I did mention Donna Rosen I were appointed to the business council that guided

the workplace project.



527

00:58:45.090 --> 00:58:50.520



jgreen: With other corporate executives, most of them were actually we're executives. I was not an

executive



528

00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:54.030

jgreen: I was a director



529

00:58:54.300 --> 00:58:55.620

Evan Taylor: Okay, but



530

00:58:55.770 --> 00:58:59.370

jgreen: By that point, actually, I wasn't a director. I was just a senior technical writer.



531

00:59:00.660 --> 00:59:02.160

jgreen: And in 2002



532

00:59:04.140 --> 00:59:07.140

jgreen: When did I become a director and make 2000



533

00:59:09.270 --> 00:59:13.080

jgreen: I think I became a director in 2005 okay i was promoted.



534

00:59:14.250 --> 00:59:16.410



jgreen: But I was working. I was working for visa.



535

00:59:17.010 --> 00:59:28.680

jgreen: Okay, and you know it's a big company important company. It's actually a small company,

relatively speaking, in terms of number of employees, right, there's only about 5000 employees.



536

00:59:28.890 --> 00:59:30.690

Evan Taylor: Oh wow, I want to talk with much larger than that.



537

00:59:30.750 --> 00:59:39.180

jgreen: Well, it's got one of the like Coca Cola, it's, it's got one of the most recognizable brands Coca Cola

McDonald's visa.



538

00:59:39.540 --> 00:59:43.440

jgreen: Exactly top three recognizable brands in the world.



539

00:59:43.560 --> 00:59:43.980

Evan Taylor: Yeah.



540

00:59:44.160 --> 01:00:01.320

jgreen: So it's a big, big company and also actually has the corner of the market on financial transaction

processing. So they process many, many thousands, thousands more transactions per minute than

MasterCard, or American Express.





541

01:00:01.470 --> 01:00:02.730

Evan Taylor: Oh really, wow, I



542

01:00:04.170 --> 01:00:07.380

Evan Taylor: Didn't even I didn't even realize I would have assumed it was an enormous company.



543

01:00:08.580 --> 01:00:09.000

jgreen: Know,



544

01:00:10.950 --> 01:00:22.320

Evan Taylor: When is it easier in court. In, in, you know, in the corporate sector is it easier to to do

activism and change because there's a very literal financial motivation and sometimes it's a smaller

organization.



545

01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:36.360

jgreen: Yes. And because of the top down. If you can get to the top and influence the person at the top

right, top down stuff actually happens. Unlike ronald reagan's trickle down economy ideas which



546

01:00:37.410 --> 01:00:38.010

Evan Taylor: Right.



547

01:00:39.570 --> 01:00:44.520

jgreen: culture change can actually happen from the top down in a corporation.





548

01:00:44.700 --> 01:00:49.530

jgreen: Mm hmm. Does the paychecks get signed right



549

01:00:49.770 --> 01:00:56.100

Evan Taylor: Well, I'm, what I'm hearing this all comes back to what you were saying about authority and

the ability to actually exercise it and



550

01:00:56.370 --> 01:01:04.350

Evan Taylor: When you run something as a business when w path becomes an actual business, not just a

you know a club of folks who are interested in this stuff. But when it's



551

01:01:04.650 --> 01:01:10.680

Evan Taylor: An actual business that then you can actually affect and call on that authority and it can be

processed in a way that's predictable.



552

01:01:10.890 --> 01:01:20.400

Evan Taylor: That people can can accept that they understand and that allows them a way to actually

create be able to to make that change as opposed to waiting for everyone to agree. Yep. Yeah.



553

01:01:21.270 --> 01:01:31.050

Evan Taylor: That makes a lot that makes a lot of sense. And in some ways it's easier to do that work in a

in a in the corporate world then in the nonprofit world where we talk about consensus building and all

of that stuff.





554

01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:42.360

Evan Taylor: You know that that consensus building in some, in some ways, my dad always used to say

he was a business guy. My dad. My dad. I was just saying, you know, like the consensus is just lowest

common denominator.



555

01:01:45.330 --> 01:01:49.110

jgreen: If you, if consensus is it difficult leadership position.



556

01:01:49.230 --> 01:01:49.950

Hmm.



557

01:01:51.540 --> 01:01:58.410

Evan Taylor: Because you've never you're never going to get everybody to agree, especially when we're

talking, you know, when we thought our LGBT IQ to to a



558

01:01:59.490 --> 01:02:06.330

Evan Taylor: Questioning soup. You know, when we have this big alphabet soup you doing, you're never

going to get everybody on the same page in that way.



559

01:02:07.380 --> 01:02:09.780

jgreen: And we have to allow that to exist.



560

01:02:09.870 --> 01:02:10.440



Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



561

01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:14.250

jgreen: You can't control every aspect of life.



562

01:02:14.550 --> 01:02:15.150

Evan Taylor: Right.



563

01:02:15.600 --> 01:02:18.300

jgreen: You know you can't like you can't control language.



564

01:02:18.570 --> 01:02:19.170

Evan Taylor: Hmm.



565

01:02:19.470 --> 01:02:23.550

jgreen: You know, but you can control values.



566

01:02:24.180 --> 01:02:24.960

Right.



567

01:02:26.100 --> 01:02:34.710

jgreen: You can control the the area of your that you've taken on responsibility for. Mm hmm.





568

01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.770

Evan Taylor: And I'm hearing that it's very much like you were saying.



569

01:02:38.370 --> 01:02:45.300

Evan Taylor: Last time. Last time we talked, and you were saying, you know, nowadays, you know, we

might say you were talking about the bisexual advocacy.



570

01:02:45.630 --> 01:02:51.900

Evan Taylor: work that you've done and saying no. And I'm connecting that took nowadays you know 20

year olds would be saying pan sexual or



571

01:02:52.170 --> 01:03:01.020

Evan Taylor: What, you know what, whatever, you know, Debbie pan sexual all sorts of different you

know combinations of words and at the end of the day, the value is still the same. And the value



572

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:09.690

Evan Taylor: Is, you know, I am open to the person, not the gentle, gentle is not the gender not, that's

not what I'm at I'm after the person here and that



573

01:03:09.990 --> 01:03:21.090

Evan Taylor: Was the, sort of, you know, joining value that while we might have all different

perspectives on opinions, the value is the same. Yep, exactly. I like that.





574

01:03:21.330 --> 01:03:38.730

jgreen: And I think I really think that that in order to be successful in the world. You have to have space

and you have to give space. Mm hmm. To allow people to be who they are right to make the

contribution that they're capable of making



575

01:03:39.240 --> 01:03:46.680

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. And in terms of spaces, what kinds of space. Are you thinking like physical,

emotional informational, what are the kinds of things you're thinking



576

01:03:46.680 --> 01:03:52.530

jgreen: All of it all of it. Everything whatever is appropriate to the context of the interaction, right.



577

01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:59.430

Evan Taylor: And so on. In some ways, I'm thinking, you know, going back just just assessment to when

the internet came out.



578

01:03:59.640 --> 01:04:08.460

Evan Taylor: That that was finally a way that as transports, we could we could make space in a way that

was, you know, we could we could be anonymous right we weren't going to get killed.



579

01:04:08.970 --> 01:04:22.020

Evan Taylor: For making that space, you know, maybe not right away but you know that there was there

was at least just this smidgen of space. We can carve out in the world and meet each other and talk to

each other without the risks that happens in the, the non virtual world.





580

01:04:22.290 --> 01:04:22.680

Right.



581

01:04:23.820 --> 01:04:29.880

Evan Taylor: That's right, yeah. So, thinking, you know, with the year 2000 then now.



582

01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:46.320

Evan Taylor: I you know I don't know another. So that's 20 years later by 2014 what you know if you

could, you know, snap your fingers and and you know make the ideal world, what kinds of changes

would you would you hope would happen over the next 40 years in terms of that space, making



583

01:04:51.450 --> 01:05:00.510

jgreen: Well, I think we have to solve the problem of religious freedom. So obviously we have to solve

the problem of people's



584

01:05:01.620 --> 01:05:03.780

jgreen: We still are dealing with people's fears.



585

01:05:04.200 --> 01:05:05.520

Evan Taylor: Um, yes.



586

01:05:05.730 --> 01:05:20.340



jgreen: And we still are dealing with in course, people don't want to admit that they're afraid. Mm hmm.

And fear for some people just makes them angry right and then they get aggressive. Mm hmm. And



587

01:05:23.160 --> 01:05:28.500

jgreen: You know, they can buy that time that they're so hyped up that they can't possibly even admit

that they're afraid.



588

01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:32.400

jgreen: Right. That's why they behave the way they do.



589

01:05:33.210 --> 01:05:38.130

jgreen: All these problems. It's psychology its individual human psychology



590

01:05:39.330 --> 01:05:46.050

jgreen: That we're still dealing with many respects you know we have not solved the problem of belief.



591

01:05:46.920 --> 01:06:05.100

jgreen: Right, so we have not solved the problem of belief which is which. The concept of religious

freedom and religious exemptions and, you know, we don't want to step on another person's religion.

So we'll let them hate you, you know, that's fine. They can you all they want



592

01:06:07.230 --> 01:06:10.740

jgreen: God forbid, we should step on their on their religion.





593

01:06:11.010 --> 01:06:21.150

jgreen: Mm hmm. That's a real serious problem because people who have evil intent will use that to

their advantage.



594

01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.050

Right.



595

01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:24.330

jgreen: And



596

01:06:26.160 --> 01:06:29.070

jgreen: And we haven't solved the problem of good and evil. Um,



597

01:06:29.700 --> 01:06:30.390

Evan Taylor: I don't know about that.



598

01:06:31.260 --> 01:06:36.840

jgreen: Well, I don't know about it either. I mean, I just that just popped into my head. It's just, you

know, people with evil intent. Where does that



599

01:06:36.870 --> 01:06:39.030

Evan Taylor: Even come from right





600

01:06:39.240 --> 01:06:46.920

jgreen: What motivates people to to find compassion for another person situation and real ends and

say, oh,



601

01:06:48.030 --> 01:06:56.100

jgreen: Well, I guess I don't have to be afraid of you anymore. I can, I can accept you. Mm hmm. And

what makes people



602

01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:08.040

jgreen: get pleasure out of stepping on somebody right killing somebody. Mm hmm killing animals. Mm

hmm. You know what



603

01:07:10.080 --> 01:07:15.840

jgreen: What, what does. Where does that come from something that's completely beyond me. Mm

hmm.



604

01:07:16.620 --> 01:07:24.840

Evan Taylor: And I'm hearing that connection back to what you're talking about, about fear that the

future is you know that that it's it's it's coming from both like from both sides because



605

01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:25.440

jgreen: Right now.





606

01:07:25.470 --> 01:07:26.580

Evan Taylor: There, you know that the



607

01:07:26.970 --> 01:07:35.610

Evan Taylor: You know, really just right. Sure, whatever is afraid of us because they don't understand it.

They don't know if they don't, they're not aware of their own fears, it just becomes some anger and a

resentment that



608

01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:39.180

Evan Taylor: You know, get, get it away from me, because I don't I don't understand it. And I don't want

to hear.



609

01:07:39.180 --> 01:07:40.170

jgreen: It right



610

01:07:40.260 --> 01:07:46.380

Evan Taylor: We are terrified for, you know, for very understandable reasons of intergenerational

trauma that have happened where



611

01:07:46.470 --> 01:07:52.710

Evan Taylor: We're aware that, you know, if we will be killed. WE WILL BE BEAT UP, WE WILL BE HURT.

We will be legislated out of existence.



612



01:07:53.100 --> 01:08:06.060

Evan Taylor: That those sorts of things. You know that we have very real fears in that way, whereas the

fears that the other folks are having our fears of a lack of understanding or lack of education than our

fears are what they do to us when they don't understand us



613

01:08:06.660 --> 01:08:07.740

Evan Taylor: Right, yeah.



614

01:08:08.460 --> 01:08:11.490

jgreen: And then, you know, and then we get special rights.



615

01:08:11.820 --> 01:08:12.750

jgreen: That they don't get



616

01:08:13.170 --> 01:08:15.870

jgreen: Mm hmm. Which is a bunch of crap. Yeah, I'd be



617

01:08:16.140 --> 01:08:17.940

Evan Taylor: Happy to somehow that special rate.



618

01:08:19.080 --> 01:08:19.500

jgreen: Right.





619

01:08:19.770 --> 01:08:21.240

Evan Taylor: Now, being able to not live in fear.



620

01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:22.530

Evan Taylor: Is somehow right



621

01:08:22.740 --> 01:08:24.060

Evan Taylor: Exactly. Hmm.



622

01:08:24.660 --> 01:08:31.560

jgreen: Now there's that come from their interpretation that they still that they live in fear. So why

should we not have to live in fear. I don't know.



623

01:08:32.460 --> 01:08:38.550

Evan Taylor: And what kind. Is that, is that a fear of loss is that a fear of, you know, is that the, you know,

the fear of God that's, you know, they believe



624

01:08:39.480 --> 01:08:40.320

Evan Taylor: That fear that there



625

01:08:41.100 --> 01:08:41.730

jgreen: I don't know.





626

01:08:42.990 --> 01:08:52.050

jgreen: And without communication. Mm hmm. And a language to approach this stuff with in a non

threatening way we'll never find out.



627

01:08:52.290 --> 01:08:59.640

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. And we live in a time right now that's so much based in this call culture that

literally cancels communication.



628

01:09:00.180 --> 01:09:02.040

jgreen: Which is really awful.



629

01:09:02.190 --> 01:09:02.670

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



630

01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:20.940

jgreen: I find that absolutely threatening. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and I've been. I've been

attacked in W path meetings by by trans people who think that I am just this white man with power.



631

01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:26.220

jgreen: And treated as if, you know, well, you have all the privilege.



632

01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:29.400



jgreen: Right, you know, and



633

01:09:31.470 --> 01:09:35.160

jgreen: You know that's. I'm like, yeah, you're an MD.



634

01:09:36.780 --> 01:09:41.310

jgreen: Where did you get that privilege. Right. I don't have any of the privilege, you have



635

01:09:41.610 --> 01:09:42.120

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



636

01:09:42.240 --> 01:09:44.070

jgreen: I'm never make the money you make.



637

01:09:44.670 --> 01:09:45.120

jgreen: You know,



638

01:09:45.210 --> 01:09:46.380

Evan Taylor: I'd be people younger than you.



639

01:09:47.550 --> 01:09:48.900

jgreen: Yeah, they're younger than me. Yeah.





640

01:09:49.200 --> 01:09:55.950

Evan Taylor: Well, this is like this is not what I'm thinking about just doing doing this work that they

don't they don't understand because they're saying you have all this privilege well



641

01:09:56.250 --> 01:10:01.140

Evan Taylor: You know, they haven't had to sit in a W PAC meeting and have people turn away from

them when they're speaking, they



642

01:10:01.500 --> 01:10:13.350

Evan Taylor: You know, they haven't had to literally you know Bang down the door to get in touch. I'll be

meeting they have to do that those doors were opened by other people, figuratively, literally, you know

those doors were opened. And so there's a I'm



643

01:10:13.860 --> 01:10:23.160

Evan Taylor: A lack of a lack of historical context in the sense of, they don't understand what people

have to go through to give them the opportunity to get there two letters after their name.



644

01:10:23.580 --> 01:10:24.570

jgreen: They don't care.



645

01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:26.550

Evan Taylor: I'm the apathy.





646

01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:27.990

Evan Taylor: Why



647

01:10:28.020 --> 01:10:31.230

jgreen: What do you think what they want. Yeah. What is selfishness about



648

01:10:31.620 --> 01:10:32.550

jgreen: They want what they want.



649

01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:34.650

Evan Taylor: And then, uh,



650

01:10:35.250 --> 01:10:35.670

jgreen: Huh.



651

01:10:35.910 --> 01:10:41.610

Evan Taylor: Is that generational or do you think that that's a privilege or what does that function that

they're not sort of CNN.



652

01:10:41.790 --> 01:10:43.650

Evan Taylor: Idea interesting





653

01:10:43.890 --> 01:10:46.110

jgreen: Sometimes I think it is privilege. Mm hmm.



654

01:10:47.580 --> 01:10:50.250

Evan Taylor: The privilege to not know what what what brought you here.



655

01:10:51.120 --> 01:10:58.920

jgreen: Well, I think it's privileged that you know they've in many cases they've come from a space

where they got whatever they wanted



656

01:10:59.160 --> 01:11:00.120

Um,



657

01:11:01.260 --> 01:11:07.080

jgreen: Right, even though they went through the the traumas of being trans



658

01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:11.580

jgreen: In many other aspects of their lives. They just got what they wanted.



659

01:11:11.910 --> 01:11:23.610

jgreen: Mm hmm. They got supported by the adults around them. They got supported by the leaders

around them. They got the opportunities to do various things that





660

01:11:24.450 --> 01:11:25.290

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



661

01:11:25.380 --> 01:11:25.740

You know,



662

01:11:27.690 --> 01:11:42.150

Evan Taylor: I'm also think about what you're saying about language and privilege in the sense of, you

know, for folks who are in a different generation than, you know, my even the generation or two

between us in terms of trans trans generations and that that those folks that there there's a



663

01:11:43.350 --> 01:11:48.750

Evan Taylor: They got what they wanted, because there was language to talk about who they were, they

didn't have to spend all of their energy



664

01:11:48.930 --> 01:12:00.600

Evan Taylor: Trying to say, Well, are we trans trans these transsexuals cross dressers transvestites, what

are we, which ones. What's are different or whichever like they didn't have to do all that work. They

were came in and went well. We're transgender, or something.



665

01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:05.370

Evan Taylor: That there was at least a word that they could use that identified them.





666

01:12:05.910 --> 01:12:06.240

jgreen: Yep.



667

01:12:06.780 --> 01:12:10.860

Evan Taylor: And there's a certain like there. And I think there's a huge privilege and not having to



668

01:12:11.340 --> 01:12:22.020

Evan Taylor: To, to, to, you know, literally create an identity create language to describe create an entire

discourse to describe who you are and your, you know, family and friends and



669

01:12:22.260 --> 01:12:27.180

Evan Taylor: You know community is that the privilege, the energy one does not have to expend in doing

that.



670

01:12:27.360 --> 01:12:35.850

Evan Taylor: Is the energy, one can take and go through law school or go through go through your

medical degree or whatever that literally has energy you're not expanding elsewhere that you have now

to develop yourself.



671

01:12:36.300 --> 01:12:36.570

jgreen: Right.



672

01:12:36.930 --> 01:12:40.170



Evan Taylor: Which perhaps makes people a little bit entitled



673

01:12:40.740 --> 01:12:41.400

jgreen: I think so.



674

01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:45.450

Evan Taylor: Yeah, yeah. So moving forward, for the next, you know, for



675

01:12:46.080 --> 01:12:59.790

Evan Taylor: The next 20 years. What do you think are ways that we can engage younger folks and you

know i mean i'm almost I'm almost 48 so I'm thinking about folks that are like 20 like, you know, so, so,

so you're I can't remember how old you are, I asked. I remember



676

01:13:00.180 --> 01:13:13.440

Evan Taylor: 71 so you're 71 I'm like a generation and a half underneath you. So the generation coming

behind me at 20 How can folks in my generation ish and how can we engage those kids.



677

01:13:19.260 --> 01:13:20.250

jgreen: I have no idea.



678

01:13:25.230 --> 01:13:28.200

jgreen: I can't tell you. You know, it's like, at one point.



679



01:13:30.240 --> 01:13:32.790

jgreen: This back in the 90s after the after



680

01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:37.320

jgreen: After the first MDM conference in in 95



681

01:13:42.270 --> 01:13:47.040

jgreen: And some of the some of the activism that happened because of the not because of the



682

01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:50.880

jgreen: The non discrimination ordinance and and



683

01:13:52.050 --> 01:13:56.730

jgreen: The institution of trainings in the police academy and blah, blah, blah.



684

01:13:58.920 --> 01:13:59.820

jgreen: There were



685

01:14:00.870 --> 01:14:06.360

jgreen: I mean I got interviewed by the newspaper several times and people would say, Well, what do

you think things can happen in five years.



686



01:14:07.650 --> 01:14:18.300

jgreen: I know I I have never, I wouldn't have told you five years ago that this was, I'd be writing, you're

talking to you. How would I know I have not the faintest idea.



687

01:14:19.410 --> 01:14:21.810

jgreen: I'm just living



688

01:14:22.980 --> 01:14:43.440

jgreen: And knowing that I see things that hurt people that I see things there are opportunities to

change that. Right. And I'm doing what I can to change that. And I'm trying to live the values of not

hurting people.



689

01:14:43.650 --> 01:14:44.220

Evan Taylor: Um,



690

01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:59.970

jgreen: And of helping people and giving people opportunities in making room for people to have

opportunities to to be creative, to be contributing to be safe.



691

01:15:00.360 --> 01:15:01.200

Mm hmm.



692

01:15:02.790 --> 01:15:03.390

jgreen: And





693

01:15:04.410 --> 01:15:22.530

jgreen: Those you know 20 years from now, I want to see people doing those things being safe having

opportunities, being able to contribute understanding how they got to where they are and knowing who

they are and feeling good about themselves, dance, Paul, I want



694

01:15:23.910 --> 01:15:32.340

jgreen: And I see these these things like religious objections and the fact that in our culture, we can't

talk about religion without



695

01:15:34.110 --> 01:15:39.120

jgreen: You know, and everybody goes all haywire. Yeah.



696

01:15:40.530 --> 01:15:44.910

jgreen: It's not a serious problem. Mm hmm. And



697

01:15:50.070 --> 01:16:05.730

jgreen: And I'm and I really worried about people who are worried about skinheads I worry about Nazis.

I worry about people who want to join the Ku Klux Klan I you know those people. Those people who

want to hate this scares the shit out of me.



698

01:16:06.210 --> 01:16:08.790

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. We certainly haven't seen that kind of





699

01:16:10.200 --> 01:16:18.150

Evan Taylor: racist white nationalism and you know and i mean it's always been there, but it's certainly

having a resurgence right now in a way that's quite terrifying for the



700

01:16:18.150 --> 01:16:19.440

jgreen: Future. Yeah.



701

01:16:21.120 --> 01:16:32.130

Evan Taylor: So, though, so this is this is the flip side of that question, of course, which is, you know, if

everything went terrible in 20 years what the ones like what would be worst case scenario for the



702

01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:38.280

Evan Taylor: transgenerational, what would you, what would you see in 20 years that you could envision

that would be terrifying.



703

01:16:43.500 --> 01:16:45.930

jgreen: Say that again. What would be terrifying.



704

01:16:46.080 --> 01:16:50.220

Evan Taylor: Yeah, so it's not the miracle question like what if everything was great and 20 years, quite

the opposite. What a



705

01:16:51.450 --> 01:16:52.110



Evan Taylor: handbasket



706

01:16:52.650 --> 01:16:53.460

jgreen: Oh well.



707

01:16:54.900 --> 01:17:06.720

jgreen: We would not have any access to medical transition and we would not be allowed, we would all

be wearing assign gender assigned clothing, as you know, that was described it ascribed to our genitalia.



708

01:17:07.980 --> 01:17:13.170

jgreen: Um, you know, intersex people would have a much worse time than they do now.



709

01:17:14.850 --> 01:17:18.630

jgreen: You know, things are still not good for them. Yeah. Um,



710

01:17:20.160 --> 01:17:23.700

jgreen: But yeah, I mean, we'd go back to the 50s.



711

01:17:24.900 --> 01:17:25.410

Uh huh.



712

01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:28.770



jgreen: Which is what Donald Trump wants to do.



713

01:17:28.980 --> 01:17:35.820

Evan Taylor: Yeah yeah 1938 if you're if you're counting the Oscars. Right. Yeah.



714

01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:37.170

And



715

01:17:38.310 --> 01:17:42.900

jgreen: You know, it just we'd all be in closets again. Mm hmm.



716

01:17:44.160 --> 01:17:55.590

Evan Taylor: I think there's something very important to know. I'm very aware right now that's we're

talking, somebody might listen to this and 50 100 years and so as I'm thinking about that. I think it's very

fascinating to to point out that



717

01:17:56.010 --> 01:18:00.180

Evan Taylor: In all the change that's happened and all of the, you know, I mean, it's



718

01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:10.500

Evan Taylor: Your transition has been either 71 years or, you know, over 50 years or depending on how

one looks at it right that in all of that time you are still



719



01:18:10.830 --> 01:18:19.050

Evan Taylor: Very aware and very cognizant that the risk of things flying back to where they were is

actually quite precarious.



720

01:18:19.410 --> 01:18:25.920

Evan Taylor: Given our political situation and all that time and we certainly wouldn't be saying that you

know i i certainly don't think we're going to go back to slavery.



721

01:18:26.250 --> 01:18:38.670

Evan Taylor: You know, I don't think that's going to happen for you know for for people of color for race

issues and yeah are still with gender, you know, and we haven't made progress that we can actually feel

that we can rely on that's solid



722

01:18:39.390 --> 01:18:46.410

jgreen: Yeah, as far as gender is concerned, I think we, our culture is still not clear.



723

01:18:46.650 --> 01:18:47.160

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



724

01:18:47.190 --> 01:18:53.670

jgreen: We still don't have a language that allows gender to exist.



725

01:18:54.000 --> 01:19:00.900

jgreen: Right in the sense that we still are arguing over whether gender is your genitals.





726

01:19:01.170 --> 01:19:02.310

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



727

01:19:03.270 --> 01:19:06.810

jgreen: And we're still arguing over whether there is



728

01:19:08.100 --> 01:19:11.640

jgreen: Something to gender that is biological



729

01:19:12.210 --> 01:19:13.560

jgreen: Right, that



730

01:19:14.970 --> 01:19:15.480

jgreen: Were



731

01:19:16.680 --> 01:19:23.730

jgreen: Or that it's completely mutable. And, you know, for skin it changed in your culture.



732

01:19:24.030 --> 01:19:25.500

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Now,





733

01:19:25.530 --> 01:19:29.250

jgreen: Culturally prescribed and culturally moderated



734

01:19:29.730 --> 01:19:31.500

Evan Taylor: Yes. Yeah, but



735

01:19:31.590 --> 01:19:36.630

jgreen: It because we still don't know we're still in big disagreement about that. I mean, look at the the



736

01:19:37.770 --> 01:19:52.710

jgreen: Trans exclusionary radical feminist wars going on in the UK, then that's threatening as all get out.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know it's it's showing up here in North America, too.



737

01:19:53.160 --> 01:19:57.510

jgreen: Mm hmm. And it's something that I think we really need to be able to confront



738

01:19:57.810 --> 01:19:58.440

Yes.



739

01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:02.130

jgreen: But I don't think we have the tools yet. Mm hmm.





740

01:20:02.730 --> 01:20:09.090

Evan Taylor: I was recently reading I add the add an article, I don't remember. I can remember what it's

called, or what the journal was most as a research.



741

01:20:09.630 --> 01:20:18.810

Evan Taylor: Research study that was looking at a sample of trans folks and measuring the hormones in

utero, and all this stuff and



742

01:20:19.200 --> 01:20:27.390

Evan Taylor: Basically what it was looking forward some sort of biological basis to explain you know this

phenomenon of transgender and and I am



743

01:20:27.870 --> 01:20:35.040

Evan Taylor: At first you know someone in forward it to me. And I'm thinking, Oh, isn't this interesting

and I kind of have to double take it for a second because there's this



744

01:20:35.730 --> 01:20:47.100

Evan Taylor: How you know how is this research going to be used like why are we looking for a biological

basis. What are we are we going to try and eliminate it, if we can, like, what, what is what's happening

here and their approach to looking at this biological stuff.



745

01:20:47.250 --> 01:20:51.540

jgreen: Yeah I know that's and that's there's definitely a fear about that.



746



01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:54.990

jgreen: Because if you can do genetic manipulation.



747

01:20:56.820 --> 01:21:06.180

jgreen: And change things, then you can change that if you decide that that is an unwanted

characteristic. Mm hmm. Example characteristic and that's that's a there's a risk.



748

01:21:06.810 --> 01:21:07.590

jgreen: But I think



749

01:21:07.650 --> 01:21:22.290

jgreen: I actually think that it's important to try to understand more about human development and

about our bodies and about this thing that we call gender. Yeah, because I personally feel that



750

01:21:23.550 --> 01:21:35.910

jgreen: There is a biological component. Mm hmm. I don't care what it is. Mm hmm, per se. I just want

people to recognize that it's real. Mm hmm.



751

01:21:36.450 --> 01:21:42.450

Evan Taylor: And if that means we go back to understanding what you know lesbians have a different

inner ear or whatever we were talking about in the 90s. If we go



752

01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:44.070

jgreen: Over this or something. Yeah.





753

01:21:44.130 --> 01:21:45.900

Evan Taylor: Yeah, exactly, forget to mention your fingers.



754

01:21:46.110 --> 01:21:46.920

jgreen: Right and



755

01:21:46.950 --> 01:21:49.230

Evan Taylor: If that's true, then. Good. Now we know how to design



756

01:21:49.290 --> 01:22:03.750

Evan Taylor: Hearing aids for lesbians that right. If we know that, but it's it's a matter of, you know, if

there is a biological basis. How do we use that information and, you know, to increase care as it right,

you know, hold it against people. I didn't care, right. Mm hmm.



757

01:22:04.650 --> 01:22:08.940

jgreen: So I, I prefer to think that



758

01:22:11.070 --> 01:22:16.080

jgreen: We wouldn't go to one of these, you know, like The Handmaid's Tale scenario.



759

01:22:16.530 --> 01:22:16.860



Evan Taylor: Yeah.



760

01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:19.200

jgreen: We wouldn't go to a world like that.



761

01:22:19.620 --> 01:22:21.570

jgreen: Again we have more humanity.



762

01:22:22.890 --> 01:22:23.580

jgreen: Than that.



763

01:22:24.690 --> 01:22:26.400

jgreen: That will prevail.



764

01:22:28.050 --> 01:22:35.220

jgreen: In spite of the horror that we as human beings can also create right um



765

01:22:37.080 --> 01:22:39.000

jgreen: I prefer to think that we can



766

01:22:40.320 --> 01:22:45.420

jgreen: Rise Above that, because that's what motivates me. Hmm.





767

01:22:46.890 --> 01:22:58.800

Evan Taylor: I'm also hearing part of what's you know your deep your belief system that motivates you

was around and, you know, education and communication has been key to you know that that that

process anyway. Yep. Yeah.



768

01:22:59.730 --> 01:23:06.570

Evan Taylor: And something else. So as I can talk to you. I've been. I've noticed something I think is really

fascinating that I that I want to make sure it's on on the record because



769

01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:14.730

Evan Taylor: You keep talking about things when you're on the very few people that when I've asked you

something you've said, You know, I don't, I can't answer that question. I'm, I'm not even going to get,

because I don't know.



770

01:23:15.060 --> 01:23:21.360

Evan Taylor: And then when you went on to explain it. What you went on to explain was healthy. I'm

trying to come talk to somebody is very process oriented.



771

01:23:21.660 --> 01:23:27.300

Evan Taylor: That you're not really invested in what the you know the outcome is just got to be better,

whatever that means.



772

01:23:27.570 --> 01:23:32.160

Evan Taylor: A kinder, more gentler, you know, more educated world where people are nice to each

other.





773

01:23:32.400 --> 01:23:36.780

Evan Taylor: You know that people aren't discriminated against and beat up for who they are. That's the

now that, of course, that's the end goal.



774

01:23:37.050 --> 01:23:42.960

Evan Taylor: But that how we get there, you seem to be completely uninterested in and that all you're

all you're looking at this thing.



775

01:23:43.260 --> 01:23:49.530

Evan Taylor: As long as we're doing this in a way that increases education at that increases our ability to

communicate with each other. We'll get to that nice place.



776

01:23:49.890 --> 01:23:57.930

Evan Taylor: It'll be around about. It's not a direct route, but we'll get there. We just need to keep

ourselves in the process. Is that an accurate accurate thing to say.



777

01:23:58.320 --> 01:24:05.430

jgreen: Kind of, yeah, I guess so. Because, you know, although I see myself. I see myself as a big picture

thinker.



778

01:24:06.480 --> 01:24:07.170

jgreen: And





779

01:24:09.630 --> 01:24:12.150

jgreen: And I'm I'm driven by values.



780

01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:14.280

jgreen: And



781

01:24:16.080 --> 01:24:17.280

jgreen: And emotions.



782

01:24:18.630 --> 01:24:19.470

jgreen: And



783

01:24:22.500 --> 01:24:26.490

jgreen: And well, I like systems. Mm hmm. You know,



784

01:24:28.950 --> 01:24:41.250

jgreen: And I like technology and I like it. I like I like all these different things that we have around us to

to amuse ourselves with and create things with and all that, um,



785

01:24:42.510 --> 01:24:57.930

jgreen: I don't think those things are the be all end all in themselves, right. I think the be all end all is

here. Mm hmm. You know, in here is related, you know, this is all it's all this





786

01:24:58.860 --> 01:25:09.810

jgreen: It's our. It's the human body and the human mind and the human spirit and the human

relationships because we are social beings.



787

01:25:11.040 --> 01:25:17.070

jgreen: Yes. And while we can invent electric toothbrushes and, you know,



788

01:25:18.090 --> 01:25:22.290

jgreen: rocket ships to Mars and all this stuff that's all great.



789

01:25:24.510 --> 01:25:29.160

jgreen: But that's in those are things we keep ourselves busy with. Mm hmm.



790

01:25:30.900 --> 01:25:32.490

jgreen: But where we live.



791

01:25:34.200 --> 01:25:34.710

jgreen: Is



792

01:25:35.910 --> 01:25:38.940

jgreen: And the interactions we have with other human beings.





793

01:25:41.190 --> 01:25:43.260

jgreen: Are what has to motivate us



794

01:25:43.560 --> 01:25:44.220

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



795

01:25:44.280 --> 01:25:48.210

jgreen: What has to, you know, what's the point of going to Mars.



796

01:25:51.750 --> 01:25:54.390

jgreen: I mean, literally, what is the point of going to Mars.



797

01:25:55.650 --> 01:25:59.790

jgreen: It's it's it's to bring back more information. Right, right.



798

01:26:01.020 --> 01:26:04.500

jgreen: Or to figure out a way to let people live longer.



799

01:26:04.650 --> 01:26:05.220

Evan Taylor: Hmm.





800

01:26:05.250 --> 01:26:14.550

jgreen: Or something, you know, but it's all about people living yeah and dealing in the moment and

communicating



801

01:26:14.940 --> 01:26:16.140

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. But



802

01:26:16.200 --> 01:26:17.610

jgreen: What happens is people get



803

01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:21.750

jgreen: Lost in the mechanism.



804

01:26:23.190 --> 01:26:29.550

jgreen: Of the activity. Right. Yeah. And forget the real reason



805

01:26:31.050 --> 01:26:38.880

Evan Taylor: For doing things. Mm hmm. That relation ality is the real reason that the human connection

right. Mm hmm.



806

01:26:39.030 --> 01:26:44.040

jgreen: That gets elided over, it's you know, it's like, oh, well, of course.





807

01:26:45.090 --> 01:26:47.310

jgreen: No, that's the point.



808

01:26:47.550 --> 01:26:56.070

Evan Taylor: Yes. Yeah, and I like what you're saying, but this going to connect back to what we were just

talking about in terms of all the different types of knowledge is whether the you know the



809

01:26:56.400 --> 01:27:02.490

Evan Taylor: biologic knowledge, like we now know which we didn't know 25 years ago and people

listening 50 years gonna be laughing



810

01:27:02.940 --> 01:27:15.180

Evan Taylor: About neurobiology. It just wasn't a field of study and we're able to say, we actually know

the brain, the human brain is as a that's an evolutionary tool. It is wired for connection.



811

01:27:15.360 --> 01:27:16.200

Evan Taylor: It is wired.



812

01:27:16.260 --> 01:27:34.560

Evan Taylor: To have relations with other people and anything that we can do in the world to increase

that relation ality is actually perhaps the entire point of human existence, based on understanding

biology and social humanitarian processes as well. But these are all linked





813

01:27:34.950 --> 01:27:36.300

jgreen: Yep, exactly.



814

01:27:36.510 --> 01:27:37.470

Evan Taylor: I love that.



815

01:27:37.650 --> 01:27:44.160

jgreen: Exactly. I think the whole point of what we do as human beings is communicate



816

01:27:44.580 --> 01:27:46.170

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.



817

01:27:47.070 --> 01:27:55.170

jgreen: That's what we do, you know, ants make an hills trees put out leaves and maybe fruit. If they're

that kind of tree.



818

01:27:55.260 --> 01:27:55.830

Evan Taylor: Right.



819

01:27:56.070 --> 01:27:56.520

You know,





820

01:27:57.630 --> 01:27:59.970

jgreen: Everything has its thing that it does.



821

01:28:00.060 --> 01:28:02.250

jgreen: And what do you live beings do is communicate



822

01:28:02.550 --> 01:28:03.030

Evan Taylor: Yes.



823

01:28:03.120 --> 01:28:05.250

jgreen: In our communication gets twisted



824

01:28:05.700 --> 01:28:06.270

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



825

01:28:06.720 --> 01:28:13.710

jgreen: In so many ways and in so many directions and we get lost in the mechanics. Yeah, of things.



826

01:28:13.950 --> 01:28:14.760

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



827



01:28:15.150 --> 01:28:18.540

jgreen: And we forget what is the real purpose of life.



828

01:28:18.840 --> 01:28:28.650

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. What does it what does it mean right now, when somebody is 20 years old, the

same to somebody who's 70 something. Oh yeah, transsexuals a bad word. You're not allowed to say

that



829

01:28:28.920 --> 01:28:39.000

Evan Taylor: What does that mean, does it mean anything about the word transsexual orders in fact

means something about how we communicate with each other about similar concepts about change

about gender or whatever.



830

01:28:39.330 --> 01:28:40.230

jgreen: Yep. Yeah.



831

01:28:40.290 --> 01:28:41.760

Evan Taylor: Well, that's great. I love that.



832

01:28:42.000 --> 01:28:45.780

jgreen: I do not want people telling me how I feel, or what I think.



833

01:28:45.990 --> 01:28:46.890

Mm hmm.





834

01:28:49.980 --> 01:28:54.150

jgreen: And I really don't like people telling me what words I can use. I'm an artist.



835

01:28:54.300 --> 01:28:57.030

jgreen: Right, I can use any word I want



836

01:28:59.160 --> 01:29:06.000

Evan Taylor: It's all it's all in how you know the the context in which you're using it and the intent behind

it and exactly what that means.



837

01:29:07.350 --> 01:29:07.740

Evan Taylor: Yeah.



838

01:29:09.300 --> 01:29:18.630

jgreen: Looking like don't tell me if I'm a painter and you want to tell me. Okay. We don't like read

anymore. That is a bad color Trump wears red ties. So no more read



839

01:29:21.270 --> 01:29:21.900

Evan Taylor: He would probably



840

01:29:22.470 --> 01:29:25.410



Evan Taylor: I haven't. I don't know you very well, but in the time I've been talking to you.



841

01:29:25.590 --> 01:29:37.980

Evan Taylor: I can't imagine in a million years he'd stop using red because you'd be like, No, we still need

to use it because it's artistic and we're going it's it's emotional if if what what is evoking is a fear of

Trump. Then let us read and talk about it.



842

01:29:38.280 --> 01:29:39.720

jgreen: Yes, exactly.



843

01:29:41.040 --> 01:29:48.750

Evan Taylor: I really appreciate this is something that I think a lot of folks who have a business

background like like you do who've done some work you do.



844

01:29:49.230 --> 01:29:59.670

Evan Taylor: Miss. I think the emotionality and in all of this, and I really appreciate that you're looking at

it, saying, you know, we must be must not be afraid of the emotions that would be a fault, even if

they're terrifying.



845

01:29:59.910 --> 01:30:11.700

Evan Taylor: Like, that's part of the human experience. And then when we can share that terror and

discuss it with another human being. Actually, that's where we obtain our humanity. It's not in the

unfolding of fear. It's in the direct relating with each other.



846

01:30:11.940 --> 01:30:15.420



jgreen: That's right, it's in the it's in the grasping and the understanding



847

01:30:15.690 --> 01:30:16.410

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



848

01:30:16.590 --> 01:30:31.200

jgreen: And the sharing and the and the application again it's that's that's the values stuff if if all you

want to do is Terrell wings off of butterflies, you know,



849

01:30:33.150 --> 01:30:33.630

jgreen: That's



850

01:30:34.650 --> 01:30:36.900

jgreen: That's not a value I share. Mm hmm.



851

01:30:37.710 --> 01:30:43.170

Evan Taylor: And what happens to you that that that you do attain this value somehow from other

humans.



852

01:30:44.370 --> 01:30:54.930

jgreen: Yeah, exactly. Why do you have that problem. I think I see that as a problem. Yeah, you won't be

destructive. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What do you get out of being destructive.



853



01:30:55.200 --> 01:31:07.110

jgreen: Mm hmm. Can we find that for you in some other way, if that's really important, or can really

educate you so that you don't have to have that impulse anymore.



854

01:31:07.410 --> 01:31:14.520

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. And as a big picture thinker. What I'm imagining you're looking at is I use this

analogy, sometimes of the gold fish in the bowl right



855

01:31:14.730 --> 01:31:23.430

Evan Taylor: That the goldfish can only survive and the ball as long as the water support tickets

likelihood. So, and hearing is a big picture thinker that you're not questioning necessarily



856

01:31:24.030 --> 01:31:33.180

Evan Taylor: Wrong with that individual goldfish. But you're looking at the same. What is what is in the

water that allows a goldfish to take on these awful values, right. Mm hmm.



857

01:31:33.780 --> 01:31:42.390

Evan Taylor: And if we can resolve that then we've really actually we we hit the point of actually starting

to discover why human beings exist, and what we're doing on the planet are all



858

01:31:42.780 --> 01:31:47.910

jgreen: Yeah yeah cuz I don't think I don't think any person is inherently bad



859

01:31:48.180 --> 01:31:49.320



Evan Taylor: Mm hmm. Right.



860

01:31:50.700 --> 01:31:54.330

Evan Taylor: Yeah, no baby is born homophobic, racist and transfer over right



861

01:31:56.820 --> 01:32:06.210

jgreen: That, that stuff is learned and things happen to people and they learn these the Learn behaviors

that don't serve them do it all the time.



862

01:32:06.900 --> 01:32:24.330

jgreen: We all do it in various ways. We all eat too much ice cream or we all keep picking the wrong

partner or, you know, all these things that are patterns that we've learned and we, you know, to try to

figure out what serves us what helps us



863

01:32:25.440 --> 01:32:27.510

jgreen: What helps us get along better



864

01:32:27.840 --> 01:32:28.560

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



865

01:32:29.130 --> 01:32:29.640

You know,



866



01:32:31.590 --> 01:32:35.340

jgreen: And then, and then to make those be able to make those changes that we need to make



867

01:32:36.030 --> 01:32:39.570

Evan Taylor: A nice them down the further generations, so that they can process.



868

01:32:39.690 --> 01:32:40.440

jgreen: Exactly.



869

01:32:40.500 --> 01:32:48.990

Evan Taylor: Which I'm hearing from you and the, you know, I think folks are listening to this and

whatever years are going to be looking at it and saying, well, your dad said, you can't change City Hall.



870

01:32:49.380 --> 01:32:55.920

Evan Taylor: He said, Yes, you can. And I imagine the value that you're teaching your kids is not just city

hall, but the world's



871

01:32:56.070 --> 01:32:57.540

Evan Taylor: Yep. Yeah.



872

01:32:57.600 --> 01:33:12.510

jgreen: That's beautiful. I also, I also tell my kids, you know, don't take on something that isn't you don't

take on something that you, that makes you uncomfortable. Right, unless you're doing it deliberately to

challenge yourself.





873

01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:13.230

Evan Taylor: Mm hmm.



874

01:33:13.500 --> 01:33:18.840

jgreen: To grow that's fun, you know, don't do something that puts you at risk. Mm hmm.



875

01:33:19.260 --> 01:33:19.680

Evan Taylor: Yeah.



876

01:33:20.010 --> 01:33:26.160

jgreen: You know, if you want to take a risk, because you know you'll grow from it. That's fine.



877

01:33:26.670 --> 01:33:34.410

Evan Taylor: Yeah, but that that authenticity of don't force yourself into a box that doesn't fit just

because you think it's supposed to be what me or you know whatever



878

01:33:34.500 --> 01:33:35.400

jgreen: Supposedly



879

01:33:35.460 --> 01:33:40.680



Evan Taylor: Don't do that. Make sure that you're driven by something that's very dear to your heart,

that means something to you.



880

01:33:40.740 --> 01:33:47.670

Evan Taylor: That's right, that's right. I really, I really like to work in this sort of retrospective things this

or that. I have a couple of questions that are sort of



881

01:33:48.150 --> 01:33:54.990

Evan Taylor: The overarching questions I like to make sure I had sort of closer and closer to the end of

the interview. And so I've got this



882

01:33:55.380 --> 01:34:05.340

Evan Taylor: One of the ones that I have this looking back, so to your early self, whether it's your early

active itself or your younger self or whatever. What do you know now that you wish you'd known that



883

01:34:08.820 --> 01:34:13.170

jgreen: I think I spent a lot of years, holding myself back because I was afraid.



884

01:34:14.220 --> 01:34:15.180

jgreen: Of many things.



885

01:34:16.920 --> 01:34:32.130

jgreen: Even though, and some people would say, Oh, you're so outgoing or oh you do this and you do

that and you, you know, you take these risks and you, you know, you break boundaries and you, you

know, do all these things I was holding myself back





886

01:34:33.690 --> 01:34:35.490

jgreen: In many ways,



887

01:34:37.590 --> 01:34:38.160

jgreen: And



888

01:34:39.570 --> 01:34:41.220

jgreen: I really feel I could



889

01:34:42.810 --> 01:34:44.760

jgreen: I could have accomplished a lot more



890

01:34:46.530 --> 01:34:49.800

jgreen: If I had been able to



891

01:34:52.740 --> 01:34:54.690

jgreen: To not worry so much about my gender.



892

01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:59.970

jgreen: And to not worry about so much about solving these particular problems right





893

01:35:03.420 --> 01:35:05.580

jgreen: Although I'm proud of what I've accomplished.



894

01:35:07.980 --> 01:35:11.100

jgreen: And I don't regret anything in my life.



895

01:35:13.020 --> 01:35:21.810

jgreen: I just have a sense that I've held myself back out of fear at various times in my life right and



896

01:35:25.260 --> 01:35:26.010

jgreen: You know, that's



897

01:35:33.210 --> 01:35:35.130

jgreen: That's something that I try to



898

01:35:36.540 --> 01:35:44.700

jgreen: Encourage people now and in my children and my friends to look at closely.



899

01:35:46.290 --> 01:35:48.510

jgreen: In themselves and



900



01:35:49.560 --> 01:35:54.000

jgreen: Try to resolve in a way that allows them to be more successful.



901

01:35:56.730 --> 01:36:04.380

Evan Taylor: I think that's beautiful. I love the fact that what you're saying is I, this is, this is what I wish

I'd known and since I didn't know it. I'm going to keep telling other people so they know



902

01:36:05.820 --> 01:36:07.830

jgreen: It's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you.



903

01:36:08.580 --> 01:36:11.760

Evan Taylor: I mean, it's literally why we're doing this work right. This is how intergenerational



904

01:36:12.030 --> 01:36:21.300

Evan Taylor: Healing happens, it only happens by understanding what the traumas were that were faced

by those previous generations and then learning from those and being able to pass those messages

along. Yeah.



905

01:36:22.260 --> 01:36:30.510

Evan Taylor: And in terms of and so my, my, my main question I asked everybody and it's you know it's

more premature for some than others.



906

01:36:30.990 --> 01:36:37.080



Evan Taylor: But I think it's for me it's the, it's the, the most important part of the interview in some, in

some ways,



907

01:36:37.980 --> 01:36:51.690

Evan Taylor: And it's the question is again a little bit early for you this time of life, but you know, you

could get hit by a bus tomorrow. And if you did, you know what, what is the legacy that you would like

to leave. What is it you would like to be remembered for



908

01:36:58.200 --> 01:36:59.460

Evan Taylor: Oh, thank you. Freezing there.



909

01:37:04.380 --> 01:37:05.160

Evan Taylor: We are back.



910

01:37:05.430 --> 01:37:09.600

jgreen: Oh my god. That was horrible. This is the most important part of



911

01:37:11.910 --> 01:37:13.560

jgreen: You got hit by a bus tomorrow.



912

01:37:16.440 --> 01:37:20.370

Evan Taylor: Bang. That was I'm hopefully that's not some foreshadowing.



913



01:37:22.500 --> 01:37:24.330

Evan Taylor: Crossing the street for the next few days.



914

01:37:24.750 --> 01:37:26.310

jgreen: Yeah, it would be very careful. Yes.



915

01:37:27.690 --> 01:37:37.560

Evan Taylor: So the question is, it's not necessarily most important part, but I feel that when you're

doing we're doing the interviews we we really build up to this, this, you know, this visit this question.



916

01:37:38.070 --> 01:37:49.110

Evan Taylor: So the question. And again, if you didn't hear the whole thing was, if you know again if you

got hit by a bus tomorrow or something. And so what what is the legacy, you would like to leave and

what is it you would like to be remembered for



917

01:37:52.770 --> 01:37:54.930

jgreen: I would like to be remembered for



918

01:37:58.290 --> 01:37:59.370

jgreen: Being kind



919

01:38:01.650 --> 01:38:03.570

jgreen: And changing the world.





920

01:38:05.250 --> 01:38:06.090

Mm hmm.



921

01:38:08.400 --> 01:38:09.150

jgreen: And



922

01:38:10.350 --> 01:38:12.780

jgreen: Empowering other people. Um,



923

01:38:18.030 --> 01:38:18.720

jgreen: And



924

01:38:23.940 --> 01:38:24.330

Yeah.



925

01:38:25.500 --> 01:38:26.130

jgreen: That's about it.



926

01:38:27.210 --> 01:38:28.530

jgreen: That's that's been one



927



01:38:29.940 --> 01:38:40.260

Evan Taylor: Okay, hit by a bus. Be careful, but I am absolutely sure that that is exactly how you'll be

remembered and, you know, many years from now when somebody was listening to this and



928

01:38:40.770 --> 01:38:50.970

Evan Taylor: And I also think I was actually been talking one things I've been trying to do is think about

it's it's a question I don't I don't actually ask people about for you. And it's important to us as as a writer.

I'm wondering



929

01:38:51.600 --> 01:38:56.610

Evan Taylor: What would you like someone to title. Yeah, your biography and 50 years



930

01:38:58.440 --> 01:38:59.100

jgreen: Oh, wow.



931

01:39:05.370 --> 01:39:06.180

jgreen: Um,



932

01:39:10.500 --> 01:39:13.440

jgreen: I don't know. It could be becoming visible.



933

01:39:14.190 --> 01:39:15.270

Um,





934

01:39:16.770 --> 01:39:18.330

Evan Taylor: That's, that's it, that's a theme for you. I'm



935

01:39:21.150 --> 01:39:21.930

jgreen: Apparently,



936

01:39:22.170 --> 01:39:22.830

Mm hmm.



937

01:39:23.850 --> 01:39:32.100

Evan Taylor: Some. One of the things I was thinking about is this idea that you've talked so much about

overcoming fear and you've talked so much about communication.



938

01:39:32.820 --> 01:39:47.250

Evan Taylor: And and using education and communication as a tool of activism and so that's that's that's

what I would like to see them. How does your tagline. So, well, you know, becoming visible overcoming

fear in order to increase communication and relation ality



939

01:39:48.060 --> 01:39:52.020

Evan Taylor: Great. Okay, we've got the data will, we will leave that for somebody to write in 100 years



940

01:39:52.440 --> 01:39:55.560

jgreen: Excellent. That would be great. I would love that.





941

01:39:55.740 --> 01:39:57.750

Evan Taylor: I don't think I'm taken hundred years, but



942

01:39:59.340 --> 01:40:01.230

Evan Taylor: It will happen sooner than that. I'm very sure.



943

01:40:02.760 --> 01:40:05.640

Evan Taylor: Thank you so much for this interview Jamison, I really appreciate it.



944

01:40:06.630 --> 01:40:11.790

jgreen: Thank you. And it's really been a wonderful experience. And I thank you.



945

01:40:12.660 --> 01:40:20.490

Evan Taylor: Not a problem at all. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself has been one of those one of those

times, you know, again, I read your book early on for for me and



946

01:40:20.940 --> 01:40:33.330

Evan Taylor: It was, it was just so nice to be able to get to know the person you know to have that

relation ality and communication very directly with you, not just you know indirectly with the book. So

it's been an absolute honor for me to get to get to Jackie for so long.



947

01:40:33.750 --> 01:40:35.130



jgreen: Thank you. I



948

01:40:36.660 --> 01:40:39.090

Evan Taylor: Can connect it. I think we've been transferred three four conference in



949

01:40:39.090 --> 01:40:40.710

Evan Taylor: April and chat. Yeah.



950

01:40:41.490 --> 01:40:48.570

jgreen: Yeah, absolutely. Let's, let's be honest. Absolutely. Let's continue this dialogue in other ways.



951

01:40:48.900 --> 01:40:54.030

jgreen: Absolutely. Yeah, thanks. I'd like to learn more about your work and



952

01:40:55.050 --> 01:40:55.560

jgreen: Yeah.



953

01:40:56.520 --> 01:41:03.660

Evan Taylor: I remember, I remember saying, last time I offered you a fortune, my, my desk or at least a

couple of articles from the sale. You cannot have a look at that.



954

01:41:03.990 --> 01:41:06.510



jgreen: Wonderful. I would really appreciate that. Thanks.



955

01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:08.010

Evan Taylor: Thanks. Great.



956

01:41:08.100 --> 01:41:08.490

Evan Taylor: Listen.



957

01:41:09.060 --> 01:41:10.650

jgreen: All right, they have been



958

01:41:11.490 --> 01:41:13.050

jgreen: Day. Thanks. You too.



959

01:41:13.440 --> 01:41:14.820

jgreen: Bye Bye now.









































Aaron replacement





Interview Summary – Trans Activism Oral History


Summary:
Jamison recalls that Jude Patton had previously been on the WPATH board, however nonetheless, Jamison was
told that they lost members when he joined - which he presumes is because he is not as mild-mannered as Jude.
Although, Jamison points out that, during his presidency on the board, membership tripled. After his presidency
he felt traumatized and it took time to recover, even though he still feels some resentment and anger. He talks
about the importance of WPATH and the standard of care to protecting patients from people like John Brown.
After joining the Standards committee, he convinced the board to release a statement about medical necessity
which was the first time they’d ever released such a statement - and it changed the game in terms of the legal
landscape of insurance claims.

He talks about his experience in the corporate, medical, and legal worlds as a communicator and how that
prepared him for the advocacy and activism work he did with WPATH, among others. He worked as a legal
writing instructor in the 1970s and reflects on the importance of this work in being able to communicate
arguments effectively. Jamison talks about wanting to be a writer since he was young and why it’s so important in
activism and change work. He reflects on his father and the arguments he used to have with him about how “you
can’t change city hall” and talks about how his gender nonconformity as a child gave him skills to create change
as an activist. He talks about the need to overcome shame in change work and particularly for trans men who
have been often invisibilized in the perception and understanding of trans people and communities. Jamison
recalls education campaigns that he ran with Dallas Denny, including pamphlets, posters, and education
presentations. Particular changes he has seen over time are a) the ability of trans people to be out in their
workplaces and, b) the inclusion of gender identity issues in the larger gay rights movement, which had been so
resisted initially.

Jamison is particularly proud of the work he has done with the Corporate Equality Index and talks about the
impact of the commitment to trans rights that was part of the index. He talks about the role of individual human
psychology in activism work and understanding anger and fear, as well as the functions of privilege and power
within an organization such as WPATH. He expresses concern for the future of his country and the rise in
nationalism and ways that gender is still so uncritically constructed in society. He talks feeling motivated to create
a better world and the importance of kind interactions with other human beings. He has some sense that he
could’ve accomplished more in life if it wasn’t for his gender, but he does feel he has been able to do a lot.



Interviewee name: Jamison Green


Interviewer: Evan Taylor


Date of Interview: March 5, 2020












































LGBTQ2+ Oral History Digital Collaboratory

Video Log Form

Name of Interviewee: Jamison Green

Name of Video Logger: Evan Taylor

Interview date: 5-Mar-20

Description/Topic of clip Start time Starting language or Quote End time Ending language Notes, if any

Jamison on managing and engaging change. 0:08:30 “As a manager myself when I was managing in corporate…” “…that's not why the organization began.”

Talking to another board member about revising the standards of care. 0:16:09 0:16:28 “…And I said, look, if you have to write a letter to explain what the standards mean that means the standards need to be rewritten. No one should have to require a letter explaining it.”

Jamison talks about wanting to be a writer and why it’s so important in activism. 0:27:23 0:29:19 “…But I could change the world.”

Jamison talks about how his gender nonconformity as a child gave him skills to create change as an activist. 0:34:36 “I also think a lot comes from my own physical experience in the world…” 0:35:38 “…good to check out the lay of the land.”

Jamison discusses how he sees the world changing in 20 years. 1:12:41 1:15:39 ”…everybody goes all haywire.”

Jamison on communication. 1:27:37 “Exactly. I think the whole point of what we do as human beings is communicate” 1:27:44

**Legacy question 1:37:52 “Being kind and changing the world. And empowering other people...”












































LGBTQ2+ Oral History Digital Collaboratory

Video Log Form

Name of Interviewee: Jamison Green

Name of Video Logger: Evan Taylor

Interview date: 28-Feb-20

Description/Topic of clip Start time Starting language or Quote End time Ending language Notes, if any

0:07:10 “I’m the first American and the eighth person in the world with a PhD in law specializing in transgender and transsexual issues.”

0:24:25 “I don't think of myself as transgender all the time, right. It's a political position.” 0:24:31

0:32:12 “And I really worried about people adopting transgender as an identity label right. I thought it was an organizing label, not an identity label.” 0:32:18

Jamison recalls different words used over time to describe trans people. 0:54:39 ”…if somebody else said it. That was not good.” 0:57:05

0:57:53 “I write for two reasons. One is to be evocative to move people and one and the other is to educate, to inform. Mm hmm. And so in both styles of communication. You use words differently. But you have to be clear.” 0:58:14

Jamison on why he wanted to be involved with WPATH 1:31:52 1:32:35 “…That's why I wanted to get involved.”