Alfred Loft interview

[Judith Windle interviewing Alfred Loft in 1978]

Judith Windle: Mr. Alfred Loft, social studies instructor from 1954 to 1956.

Alfred Loft: Came to... the Victoria Normal School in 1954, from teaching high school in Rossland, BC. And...
I was an instructor in social studies until 1956 when the... normal school and... Old Vic College
amalgamated, and the Normal School... became the Faculty of Education under Vic College, this would be
1956, 57. And I then became an assistant professor... of education. Now you asked a moment ago about the
attitude of the students. I found the attitude of the students to be excellent. As a matter of fact, I feel that
there was something lost when the Normal School was dispensed with. Because, with the Normal School all
the students had a unity of purpose. They were all there for the same reason, and what I noticed as time
went on in the Faculty of Education... they more or less dispersed. In other words, some were taking
English, some were taking biology, some were taking lord knows what, and they just lost... or, the, the
normal school atmosphere lost its cohesiveness, this was my impression. And of course the idea was that
those... young people in the normal school... would get a little more culture by rubbing arms with arts and
science people, which as far as I'm concerned is a lot of baloney. In any case that's why my attitude toward
the students, I thought they were just tremendous, and I want to repeat they had a unity of purpose. We
had a tremendous amount of fun with, you know, annual picnics, get togethers. And what was very valuable
in the normal school was lost, in the Faculty of Education, was... during normal school days, every weekend
one room would be responsible for putting on a program that lasted at least an hour. And some of these...
young people, you know, had never before been in front of a group of people, and this was very important
for them when they were going to go out into the country, or wherever they were to go. To meet people,
and to talk to parents. They were petrified at first, but in speaking to a number of them later they felt that
was one of the... big benefits of the normal school days. These annual, or these weekly concerts, you know.
Sort of comparable to... my day when the teacher would have to put on... the Christmas concert, and all the
youngsters would have to participate. Y'know, the same, the same sort of idea. And some real talent was...
exhibited. I can tell you. I really enjoyed those, those weekly... what did we call them, auditoriums. And
every... morning there were opening exercises, in which the students took part, and this forced them to get
up on the stage and face 500 people, which, you know, isn't easy. Some of these people, maybe from
Skookumchuck, you don't get that opportunity very often, to meet 500, to meet 500 people, but they all are
rose the occasion. Said that we lost that when we became... the Faculty of Education. And... this is a
heresy... but I've always maintained... that, as far as education of teachers is concerned, if they went ahead
and got their basic degree first and took one year of teacher training... that would be superior to what they
have been doing in the past. This is, this is my view.

[04:56] AL: Because, just face it, the year at normal school was the bread and butter year. We didn't
pretend to be academic, and for that reason... education students even today are still, I think, looked down
upon... by faculty, and arts, and science people. Because you simply cannot compare an arts course with an
education course. You know, methods in the teaching of English, methods of the teaching of history, it
hasn't got the academic content. That... a history course would have, you follow me? I'm, I'm trying to
teach you how to teach. That's what I try to do when I was a social studies instructor. When I became a
professor of history, it was much easier for me. I just taught you history. And there, there's quite a
difference. So for that reason, the courses taken in education suffer by comparison. And I hate to say it, but,
education students more or less looked down upon as taking Mickey Mouse courses. Now, is there any other
direction you want me to go? Normal School students were in one part of building, and the... arts and
science students were in another part, but I... as an instructor for the normal school, I could find... no
evidence of... any friction... between the two groups. I just didn't see any. And certainly, as far as I'm
concerned, the Normal School teachers and the people in the faculty of arts and science... got along very
well. I was, I saw, from my point, I saw no friction at all. But I would imagine there was friction among the...
others at the top, like perhaps the principal of either college because of the problem of... of space! You
know, jockeying for space! This is a period when I was there, we had over, I think it was over... I can't
remember the number, quite a number. We were, we were full, in any case. And they were the days and
you could come at grade 12. Junior matric. And at a time too when... arts and science was beginning to
increase the number and... the situation was getting pretty dicey. Until that other building, or, what's that
building? The school board office [inaudible]...



JW: There's the Ewing Building and the Paul Building.

AL: The Young Building is the old building, yeah. Well, it's the Paul Building that was built, and the Ewing
Building was... of course, the Ewing Building was there when I was... there. And... we had a broken down
old cafe, operated by a very kindly... Mrs. Norris was her name, and she was there, I don't know, she was
there for years. Matter of fact, she was there right up until the time the campus moved... up to the present
one. And that was a great place for congregating, various students from various faculties and the normal
school, used to get together over... tea, coffee, or whatever, and so did the instructors of both groups. And I
found that very enjoyable. It was certainly a beaten up... cafeteria, but... she did the best she could with
what she had.

JW: [inaudible crosstalk]

AL: It was one of those little huts. Still there, I think! Do you use it for, as a cafeteria. Well you know what I
mean [inaudible, AL laughs]. Now, I can't think anything else at the moment. Any other questions?

JW: Anything about the... lawns and the gardens?

AL: They were beautiful! As a matter of fact, I think they've gone back, really. They, it doesn't look as
attractive to me as it used to when I first went there. I don't know what's happened.

JW: I guess they [inaudible crosstalk]...

AL: I really don't know what's- Pardon?

JW: They probably don't have as many gardeners.

AL: That could be, but that is one beautiful place. That old building is just beautiful, and as I say, there's... it
certainly doesn't... have the beautiful manicured look it had when I went there in 1954, no mistake about it.

JW: Were the age of the students... were they fairly young when they came to the normal school and you
taught them?

[10:02] AL: Oh yeah, for the most part, oh yes. Quite young. And... but I also taught students there who
were older than I was. People who had made a career in the northwest [inaudible], in the, in the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police. If you retired, you retired at about 45 and then you'd start a new career. And...
retired Navy people... and... vets who decided after a while they would like to become teachers. But for the
most part, you know, they were young people. And incidentally, there was unwritten law... that... all those
students east of Hope... and north of Hope, that means the interior, would come... to UVic. Or, to the
Provincial Normal School here, whereas Vancouver'd look after all the lower mainland. Y'know, you could go
to either place but that seemed to be the... that seemed to be the pattern. So we had them of course all the
way from... the Peace River district to Fernie. And Cariboo, all those people would come to us. And that
was... rather enjoyable, going out to see them during the practice teaching time. You know, you got to see
all parts of BC.

JW: You had to check on them, did you?

AL: Oh yes, oh yes, we went out there for spring. They do... their first practice teaching in the schools in the
area, and then the last... when would it be? Around May, is it April or May? I forget now. They would go out
for... about three weeks and do their final practice teaching in their own areas. If there was a position
available. And we would go out to watch them. But in those days they would have to come back. So they'd
finish their final practice teaching, and then they'd have to come back and we'd go on into June. Whereas
the others were long gone, people in arts and science and in the college. They had the regular university
academic year. But we had to go right into June.

JW: Yes, [inaudible crosstalk]



AL: Yes, mhm. I'd almost forgotten that. Anything else? And that wasn't a very popular- that wasn't very
popular as far as the students were concerned. And I thought it was right [dumb?] anyway having to come
back after their... we taught them all we could teach them.

JW: What did they have to do once they came back?

AL: Oh, we just continued with our courses and... but, after that three week practicum as far as I was
concerned, they should have... stayed home. They had to go to the... expense of coming all the way back to
Victoria and then leaving again in about a month's time. It just... [inaudible]. As I say, I can't remember if it
was April or May. It didn't make any sense to me, but I didn't run things. And the, the students, I would say,
resented this. Besides, it was expensive. And they'd ask me "why do I have to come back for?" I submitted I
didn't know. But we were under the provincial Department of Education and the schools, I guess, ran 10
months, so you're going to run ten months, so that was that.

JW: So it was the... provincial, pardon, the department that decided normal school should be done away
with?

AL: Oh, absolutely. Oh, yes. Education's completely in the hands, and still is, of the... Department- Ministry,
they call it now, of Education.

JW: That's too bad.

AL: Well, of course, that's how the British North America education has always been. Even now, the
University trains the teachers. But the Ministry gives them their certificate. It's always the Ministry of
Education in control, which is as it should be.

JW: Can you remember... all the different courses the students had to take within their year there?

AL: Well I'll... see how many I can remember. You had to take "methods of teaching primary". That was a
special course.

[15:00] AL: Social studies... methods in teaching English, methods in teaching mathematics, methods in
teaching... physical education, methods in teaching science. Dr. [Ganus?]... taught psychology. There was a
course given in... I don't know whether I have the right... whether I have the right title. Sort of "business
management", how to keep... your school records and things of that sort, and also we test them in bus- in...
law education... but the school I've... they had to be quite conversant with the school, I've never tested on
this. I think that's about it.

JW: Did they have music still [inaudible crosstalk]?

AL: Oh! Of course, music! Yes, they, music played a big role, yes.

JW: Who was the music teacher at that time?

AL: Who was the music teacher... Oh, Mr. Boy Scattus. Mr. Boy Scattus. And it was his brother, a twin, who
taught in the... college as... as a psychologist.

JW: Was there...

AL: Oh, and there was... writing. Writing was taught. You know, the old MacLean method of handwriting? I
never thought that, thank goodness. How could I forget music? Now, that's what was taught. I think I
covered it all now, from what I understand.

JW: What about home ec? Were they taught to fend for themselves? Some- at one point some of the boys
were taught how to make a simple stew, biscuits, just in case they had to go out somewhere rural.

AL: Not when I was there. We had no facilities for home ec there at all.



JW: There weren't [inaudible]?

AL: No, no. But I recall going to normal school myself in Saskatchewan, and I certainly had to... you know,
they make fun of a course in basket weaving. Well, I had to weave baskets at the normal school in Regina.
So... but we didn't do that here. I guess they called them manual arts or something like that. I don't know.
What else was there?

JW: What kind of sports did they have?

AL: Pardon?

JW: What sports were popular?

AL Oh... the regular... track and field, because... remember, when you get out into the country, or into your
school you had to... probably have... knowledge to operate a track meet. And you also probably had to be
the coach, so you had to know something about all these various kinds of sport. And... just the regular... like
hockey and... I don't know. I hear they have field hockey and... basketball, track, you know, the regular
thing.

JW: Where did they do all their sports, outdoor sports?

AL: Outdoor sports? A lot of it was down on the corner of... that open space on the corner of Foul Bay Road
and...

JW: Landsdowne?

AL: Landsdowne! You know, that open area? Softball games...

JW: Was the... track built yet down where Landsdowne Junior High is?

AL: No, not that I can remember, well... '54... I can't remember when Landsdowne High School was built!
I... I shouldn't say [inaudible]. I don't know. I just don't know. So I, I think I have all the... courses that
were taken, I think? You forget so soon, you know, that's not that many years ago... is it? [AL laughs]

JW: [inaudible]

AL: Oh, I can recall... first hearing about it. The Deputy Minister of Education came and held a joint meeting
in the old Ewing Building, used to be the, what used to be the library... informing us, this was... what... 56-
57.

[19:56] AL: The two groups would be combined, and the members of the normal school staff would become
members of a Faculty of Education. And I can, I can recall that very, very clearly. And, of course... people
wondered what their future was going to be, and then wondered, "well, I wonder what I'm going to be, an
instructor, an assistant professor, an associate professor", because all this had to wonder... sort of... you
know, a university... style... of organization. And-

JW: [inaudible crosstalk]

AL: Yes?

JW: Was this rumored that it was gonna happen, or was [inaudible crosstalk]?

AL: Yes, there'd been- well, that rumor had been going on for quite some time, and you know, after a while
you just forget the rumor and think, "well if it's coming, it's coming" but nobody seemed to... be aware of it.
Ray Williston was the Minister of Education at that time, and Harold Campbell was the Deputy Minister who
came and told us what was going to happen. And as far as the transition was concerned... we still taught our



same courses, we were given different titles. And... later on... the Paul Building was built and took the
pressure off, and... it was really an office building though, the Paul Building. So, I can't think of anything...
unusual about the transition, it was very simple, very easy.

JW: Were there new courses introduced in the education faculty, once the normal school had been
dropped?

AL: No, not that I can recall. Because you still had to have methods in music, methods in art- oh, I forgot
art! And we had a very good art teacher, Mr. [Wolf Johns?]. Oh, how could I forget art? And I still carried on
with my "methods in teaching social studies and geography". [inaudible] just not that different, except what
happened when we... united our... weekly... concerts went out the window. That was a great loss, and also
our... morning exercises, they went out the window. Which was another great loss in my, in my view.

JW: Who was the principal while you were in the Provincial Normal School?

AL: The principal was Harry Gilliland, Harry Gilliland. I was going to say something, but I can't recall... no,
it's gone, can't remember. Anything else?

JW: What kind of principal was he? Some of the, some of the very early principals had... [inaudible] rules,
and iron hands, and everything just so. I was just wondering, how-

AL: Harry Gilliland was... much like that. You know, the old style administrator, the old style principal. He, I
would say, to be perfectly honest, was... quite inflexible. Quite inflexible at times, well, most of the time. And
I had never been... the former principal, I hear, was rather the same, although I just heard I was [inaudible]
English. So... and Harry Gilliland carried on the tradition.

JW: I suspect then that the students were treated very formally, were they?

AL: Yes.

JW: Mister and miss...

AL: Oh yes! And... you mean when an instructor was addressing? Well, I, the attitude being this, that after
all they were young men and women and... they were to be treated with respect, and they should expect
respect from their students, and I'm all for that too. You know... that makes sense, because when you go
out into a school, you're suddenly a very important... individual in the community. Because... I'm... a firm
believer in this, that no student would ever call me Alf, ever.

[24:56] AL: And... you've got to have a line somewhere between the student and the teacher, and this
horrifies me. Some of the schools that I hear about, where students call their teachers by their first name,
you know? I'd kill 'em! And... but, that's one of the reasons for the- just one of the reasons for the discipline
problem. You cannot have the youngster calling you by your first name, no way. But that's got nothing to do
with the normal school.

JW: Do you remember any of the rules that... stood out in the normal schools, you know, they were
unwritten things, like proper dress and...

AL: Oh yes, you're expected to go there with a... shirt and tie, or as you would dress for... when you entered
the classroom. Now... good heavens say, well, I'll thank goodness things are... improving, starting to swing
back. But... some of the slobs in the 60s and early 70s just made me ill. You know, I could never get over
that, and I used to be, even at the university, I used to just nail them when they came into my class... like
that. [AL laughs] I remember one kid, he... just an example, he came in with a long... ungainly hair, this is
at the start of all this hairy business, and I took off after him. This isn't, not at normal school, this is the
university. And the next time he appeared in the class, he'd shaved his head like a big [inaudible]. [AL
laughs] Oh, I think we'd have failed him in the '54, in the normal school. I'm sure they'd never have got a
teaching certificate, dressed the way someone is now. Not at all, [inaudible], so does that answer your
question about dress?



JW: Mhm.

AL: And no sports on... they couldn't participate in any sporting activities on Sundays. No way.

JW: Were there classes held on Saturday up there?

AL: Yes, yes.

JW: Oh really?

AL: Yes... 6 days a week, that went on up until... the middle 60's.

JW: I didn't realize...

AL: Yes.

JW: So you were really, totally immersed in your programs.

AL: Oh, yes. Oh, at all the dances there had to be sponsors, one of us had to be there to see... no hanky-
panky and... had some very good dances.

JW: Did they have many during your year?

AL: They'd have maybe, oh, maybe three or four? And we'd have a... early in September, when they all
arrived, we'd have a big picnic at Willow's Beach, sort of a... get-together. So everyone learned a little about
everyone else. That was fun too. We had a lot of fun in the normal school days. They just, this, I repeat
this... unity disappeared, once they became Faculty of Education. That's my feeling.

JW: Was there a wind-up picnic, also? Or was it just in the beginning of the year?

AL: I think we did have a wind-up picnic! Gosh, you forget so soon. I think we did. This would be in June. I
don't know whether it's true now or not, but in those days all of us became... for a week, at least... justice of
the peace, so that we could administer... oaths. I don't know now whether or not this is true, but no teacher
went out into the field without taking the Oath of Allegiance. So, they were Canadian citizens immediately
when they did that. Now, I don't know what the situation is now. Another thing we did... but we didn't do it-
I, at least I can't remember during the Faculty of Education. In June, or May, when they came back, they'd
start... looking for jobs and then we would assist them in writing out their applications. And some of them
had no idea at all how to apply for a job. And I thought "this is a very beneficial, very beneficial exercise".

JW: I guess this would be their first job that [inaudible crosstalk].

[29:51] AL: Oh, it was the first job practically all of them ever had. And, you know, there's a knack in the...
writing of an application. So they, I know they'd bring them to me, I'd read it and give them suggestions and
toss it back and come back again and... you know, until it satisfied me. Some of them were just hopeless,
you know in their... applications. Just... no idea. But that was another thing that was lost.

[Audio ends]

[Audio continues]

AL: It seems to me there are Americans, any number of Americans up here, teaching in our schools, are
there not? Have you heard?

JW: There's still quite a few.

AL: Well, of course, once they... declared the Oath of Allegiance, they're finished as far as being an American



citizen. But there must have been American students here, and I don't know how. And there must have been
some way around it for them, I, when I, I don't know. You'd have to get that information from someone
else.

JW: You don't remember... the last class that went through the normal school, approximately how many
they were?

AL: [inaudible]

JW: 324?

AL: Yep. 324, numbered in there.

JW: Did you help the students make their annual each year? Or was that done entirely on their own?

AL: Oh they did that. They'd have a faculty advisor, I don't know who it was. I never... performed as a
faculty advisor for yearbook at all. And different faculty members of our, normal school instructors,
sponsored different sports. I sponsored, for example, badminton and curling. And others would sponsor, you
know, basketball and...

JW: Where did you have your curling?

AL: Down in the Victoria Curling Club, by the memorial arena.

JW: It was pretty new then, wasn't it?

AL: Oh, yes, yes.

JW: I see a picture in the annual here, a tug-of-war, it looks like.

AL: Oh, that was an annual thing. That should be at Willow's Beach.

JW: Teachers versus the students?

AL: Yeah.

JW: This was all the students had to participate in, and at least one sport.

AL: Yes, I mean... phys ed was mandatory. As a matter of fact for, when we first went up there, or when I
first drived here, phys ed was mandatory in... I think it was first and second year... at Victoria College.

JW: And the graduation dance? The last year was in the Crystal Ballroom at the Empress.

AL: When, what- is the date there? The month?

JW: Doesn't say. The final dance is all it has.

AL: You've seen that book before, surely. The schools have parents' days, where you go over, you know,
your follow your child's timetable and see the various teachers. I've gone out to Oak Bay Junior High,
followed my daughters' timetable. And I taught every one of her teachers, every last one of them. Wasn't
that fantastic? [both laugh] I come in, they nearly die when they see me. [both laugh] Oh, that, that's one of
the great rewards of teaching. Meeting your... former student.

JW: Seeing how well they're doing?

AL: Oh yes, it's great. It really is, no matter where you go, anywhere in BC. I went up to Smithers, my
daughters' married and is living up there. Went up there for Christmas. Went to church, Christmas morning,



two young women came up me, "do you remember me?" I didn't remember, they were students of normal
school, living in Smithers, they remembered me. And that, that makes life worthwhile. Are you a Victoria
[inaudible]?

JW: Yes.

[34:39] AL: I probably learned more by copying. I mean, if you were a good teacher... those children will
copy you, or your students will copy unconsciously. They don't, of course- what I used to tell them, just steal
every possible idea you can. Which I think is very good advice, and... you know, because as I also used to
tell them, to be a good teacher, you've got to be a combination... of Bob Hope, Albert Einstein, and the Holy
Ghost, and I mean that. If you're really going to be good. Would you agree? You look back in your career, in
school. There's some which stand out, and they're modeling themselves on someone. So, that's what I
thought of my normal school days, in any case, that... was most worthwhile. I don't know of a happy year I
ever had, to know what- when I went to normal school. And another thing I think we used to do. I think we
tried to make these people from the interior of the province... welcome. You know, at least I wasn't
concerned about the local people because... a number of students would arrive, say from Oak Bay High or
Mountain View, and then had a little "in group", but how about these kids who came from Terrace, you
know, or Fernie, or Sparwood, I mean, they, it's pretty lonesome! You can well imagine by Christmas there
are a lot of tears being shed, and I could understand that too, and I think we did our best... to make them,
you know, feel they weren't alone. And that's another good aspect, but it's last personal, I've found, in the
Faculty of Education. I don't know why, I mean it shouldn't be, but to me, it was less personal.

JW: When these students came down from the interior, and... far reaching places, was there housing
available for them? Did you have a list where they could board-

AL: There was a list, yes. I think, if I recall, [Margie Hoy?] had... a permanent list of people who made it a
practice of... renting rooms to students. And, of course, naturally at times there was... quite a problem,
depending on the number of students coming down. But everyone, everything seemed to go along well
enough.

JW: I think maybe it brought to everybody closer together, having these people from out of town to look
after.

AL: Oh, certainly the city students must have learned a great deal about the interior, [inaudible]. What's the
way to say it? I can recall parents coming down with... their student, with their children, you know, looking
for homes. Which is to say, it's only natural a parent would like to see where the youngsters were going to
live. I can recall them doing that. As time goes on you think of, you know, little details. Can't, can't think of
anything else really.

JW: Can you remember, in the Young Building itself, where some of the rooms were? It's been changed so
drastically in the past little while. Like the library is where the auditorium used to be. The principal's office of
at one time had a fireplace in it, I understand.

AL: Oh, my office had a fireplace in it. Oh, a number of the offices. Oh, sure, that's nothing unusual.

JW: Well, they're abolished now.

AL: Is that right? Well they were just closed off. Oh, a gorgeous building. [inaudible] So where's the library?
That's when it was the college, yes. Yes... The library, you know where that was, do you?

JW: No.

AL: [inaudible]. Now that's the basement curriculum library.

JW: Oh, it was downstairs!

AL: It was the curriculum library downstairs, yeah.



JW: Was it... close to the gym?

AL: Just a minute. I think it was, sort of across. It's down in the basement, down here.

JW: Oh that's where the library was, under the front stairs almost.

AL: Yeah, yeah, down in here. And the light that they have... windows at land level. Well, that's where it
was.

[39:59] JW: And then the gym would be directly across from it?

AL: Yes, something, or very close.

JW: In the original blueprints that area was put aside for the lunchroom.

AL: Where the curriculum library was?

JW: Yes.

AL: Is there... You notice, it says "library Ewing Building", well that was the arts and science library. Whether
that's the curriculum library...

JW: That's [inaudible] when the college was in...

AL: See, you- they, they've got the library separated at the U- at the University of Victoria too, there's a
curriculum library and the main library.

JW: There, was the Dunlop House used for anything, or was it a residence still at that time... for a principal,
or anybody?

AL: When I went there in 1954, I can't remember whether it was or not. But certainly... I can distinctly
remember shortly after, or maybe shortly after, it was used as lecture rooms.

JW: That's what it was used for-

AL: Yeah, I mean, by... late 50s, early 60s, it was certainly used for lecture room. One use, and officers later
on. And... but I can't remember when, 1954, whether people still lived there. It's quite an old building.

JW: Yes...

AL: Quite isolated now isn't it, sitting up here. I wonder what they're gonna do with it.

JW: In the 30s, one of the students at that time I had spoken to, he told me that... if your teachers didn't
think you were... teacher material, they told you right in the beginning so that you didn't waste their time or
your own. Did you find this when you were teaching, that if there was some student who didn't seem to...
really fit in, that they were notified... in some way, that maybe they should seek another profession.

AL: Oh... [AL laughs, inaudible speech]. I went into a school, watched this young girl teach, and she was
terrible. So... we went in pairs. [inaudible] in pairs. So I said, "I'm not going to tell you anything about this
student. You go in. You watch." So he went in, he watched. Oh, it was just awful. He said during the last
[inaudible], "did you ever think of nursing for a career?" [both laugh] That's one way. Oh yeah, there were
students who were told that they may as well go home. We usually give 'em until Christmas, because they...
they just couldn't, couldn't stand it. I can recall another incident, one chap. Quite athletic type. Big boy. I
went to watched him teach, and he just broke down crying. So he obviously was out. You know, just couldn't
stand the pressure. And... oh yes, I've told them. You know, in a nice way because everyone can't be a
teacher.



JW: Majority of them, though, got through.

AL: The majority got through, yes. Sometimes some got through I wondered about. But don't forget... in
those days there were, there was a great shortage of teachers, let me tell you. And it was absolutely
necessary to have somebody in these little schools, with some sort of training, then rather than have no one.
So it seems to me that some of the standards were quite lax... at that time when there was a great shortage
of teachers. It's like everything else, when you've got lots of students suddenly the standards go up. And
when you haven't got enough, standards are lowered. But that was the [inaudible], because at the time
Alberta was very short of teachers. And... what there was threatening to give them crash courses, like four
months, and send them out and they can come back, and we were afraid that that was going to happen
here.

[45:07] AL: So, there were times, I would say, that... some passed who shouldn't have passed. Of course,
that's true in every course. But... due, I repeat, to the great shortage of teachers in '54 or '55. Because, let's
see, that's about 10 years after the war... and the great big population explosion after the veterans came
home. So we needed teachers, or the government needed teachers, so we churned them out, and... I
suppose, as years went on a lot of them would just... weed themselves out. But unfortunately some who
should have weeded themselves out are still teaching. Unfortunately.

[Audio skips ahead]

AL: They're broken down, see, not too large because I'd have maybe... not one section, but... four different
sections, taught at different times during the day. Otherwise you have too many in the room. Maybe I...
well, there was 300 odd students, and were two of us taught... taught social studies. Neil Swainson, he's a
professor of political science, and myself. So divide that and that'd be 160 students each. And... we were
very flexible, I taught... methods in mathematics for a short time. And... I think Neil taught some English,
I'm not sure. But Neil moved over into... that's what happened to some of us, as time went on we moved
from education into the Faculty of Arts or Science. I guess there was just Neil Swainson and myself, who did
that. I can't remember anyone else... going into arts and science. The rest stayed in the Faculty of
Education.

[47:45] [Audio ends]

[47:51] [Recording ends]