Interview with Robert Ablenas

17-10-05-RA.docx “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 1 “HIV in My Day,” Interview 1 Interviewee: Robert Ablenas (RA); Interviewer: Ben Klassen (BK) October 5, 2017 Ben Klassen: Alright, the camera is rolling. So, I guess it’s October 5th and I’m sitting here with Robert Ablenas, and I guess we’ll get started. So, just by way of easing ourselves into this conversation, we just wanted to start by asking when did you become involved in the gay community, and what did that kind of look like at the time? Robert Ablenas: When I became involved, it wasn’t in Vancouver, it was in Waterloo, where I was a student. And there didn’t seem to be a lot of opportunities to connect with community, so I just connected with some of the people at one of the local clubs – it was very small. More connection with the gay community when I actually moved to Vancouver in 1987. Connection was just by having more access to media, such as Angles, at the time – I almost said Xtra! West. Actually, still in Ontario, Body Politic. So, getting a sense of community in Toronto, going to clubs in Toronto – which I just remembered now – but not too much. Yeah, there wasn’t a lot of very active involvement when I first was coming out, and I came out mostly when I did move to Vancouver. And probably part of that’s just by virtue of being as far away from family, and feeling comfortable to do that, the rest of the family being in Ontario. BK: And how would you, kind of, describe your relationship to the gay community upon coming to Vancouver in 1987? RA: Um… Coming to Vancouver, thinking of what I did – I didn’t go to clubs so much, but there were organizations. There – I think I heard about Queer Planet starting up, either through Angles or maybe even the CBC and went to a meeting or two of that. At the same time, going to the first meetings of ACT UP when that was starting up. Repeat the question, please. BK: Oh, just, how would you kind of describe your relationship to the community, as you’re coming to Vancouver, coming out at the same time – what did that look like for you? RA: Yeah, well, the relationship with the community in Vancouver tended – tended to be more on the… advocacy side. Some of the involvement when I wasn’t even terribly out was just helping an organization that was working on trying to promote gay men continuing to practice safer sex. So, not taking a preachy approach, but just a congratulatory approach for those who were taking preventative measures regarding prevention of transmission of HIV. Yeah, a lot of it was really initially on the advocacy side, health side – just as a volunteer – and eventually a little more would – there would be a little more of actually going to clubs, just for a drink with a friend or some friends, you know, once a week – something like that. But yeah, that was the extent of my initial engagement in the community. BK: Yeah, that’s really interesting that your entry into the community was very much through activism and through advocacy – health advocacy. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 2 RA: Part of that came from – for a very long time – feeling as if gay men… Having a sense of community even though I wasn’t very much out into it, having a sense of being a part of that community still, and feeling a bit treated as second-class or being encouraged to stay in the closet. I actually grew up with a lot of American media showing a lot of mistreatment of the gay community in the United States, and that stuck with me and gave me a sense of wanting to do more to oppose that – to actually promote acceptance of the gay community and less hostility towards it. BK: So, the kind of activist angle was this way of combatting this representation – this homophobic kind of construction? RA: Yes. There was fun, too. I mean, there was socialization, but that was probably the bigger part of when I connected with the community – first connected. BK: Were – I definitely want to come back to a lot of the things you just mentioned, ‘cause there’s so much there, but before we get to Vancouver and stay in Vancouver for the rest of our time together, what was the – like, do you kind of remember what the gay community in like… in Waterloo looked like? Or what – do you have any remembrances of what the community looked like before HIV and AIDS? RA: Well, Waterloo – I remember going to a club a few times and it was a pretty depressing thing, because it was a small club. I think it was actually in Kitchener, not Waterloo – but it wasn’t the most heartening experience. But then met a few people there a few times and made connection and stayed in touch for a while, but nothing terribly lasting that way. BK: And Toronto? RA: Toronto… The same sort of thing, larger clubs though, and I think in general I was very shy, which probably didn’t help at the time, as well. BK: Yeah, I can imagine. So, were you kind of hearing about HIV and AIDS while you were in Waterloo still, or was this something that you really kind of started to learn about and hear about more when you came to Vancouver? RA: I was hearing about it, I think – I think… I think it was before ’84, between ’82 and ’84. BK: Oh wow. Yeah, that’s early. RA: So, I don’t know if this bears up historically, but that’s somewhat what I think I recall, and that would be through – still in Waterloo, having more exposure, unfortunately, to American media, news media and such. And I seem to remember, perhaps, my first hearing about anything like this from someone like Dan Rather talking about the gay cancer, so whenever that was. But I was hearing more of it towards ’86 – that was when I was first tested and that was probably – that was probably in response to hearing more coverage of it, again, CBC, I expect. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 3 BK: So that’s – those were kind of your – mainstream news media were the places where you were first starting to hear about the epidemic. RA: Yeah. When I was in Waterloo still, I believe I was reading about it in The Body Politic, but not making – not making a strong connection. Not actually appreciating what was happening, not having a full grasp. And having more awareness, at least by ’86, such that I felt compelled to get tested along with my partner. BK: So was it, kind of – when you first hearing about HIV and AIDS – actually, when you were first hearing about it, it probably wasn’t called HIV and AIDS. But what were your kind of thoughts when you first heard that news. Was it an immediate, like, “Oh, this is very serious,” or were there kind of other feelings or emotions around the news. RA: The first reaction was this is very serious and it’s effecting someone else, even though it was effecting people very strongly in the gay community. But I was perceiving it as something happening in the United States more than Canada, and then it became more and more apparent that there were cases in Canada, so… I may have been a bit behind the curve on that, but it took a while for me to actually grasp that this was a more immediate issue, as opposed to something happening to someone else far away. BK: Yeah, that’s – that’s interesting that there was this idea of “someone else” just meaning in the United States, because that’s kind of where some of the main epicenters were early on. RA: I don’t know if any of that was denial, just to feel a little more comfortable, but that was the initial impression. BK: And did you feel like there was, like, good sources of information around HIV and AIDS as you were kind of starting to learn about it? Were there any sources of information that were actually helpful or useful? RA: Sources that I tended to appreciate more were say Angles and – I don’t know how consistently I followed The Body Politic after moving to Vancouver, so I’ll just stick to Angles, I would say. I think within Angles, there was coverage that was trying to look at many different possibilities, explanations of what was going on. BK: Yeah, do you remember anything kind of specific about Angles’ coverage of the epidemic? RA: No. [laughs] No, I do not. BK: Or types of information they were kind of promoting or…? RA: I remember there being debates about AZT and pros and cons for that. I remember discussions of different types of approaches to treatment. The memory’s not very clear regarding the diversity of what was actually being covered then, but I have a sense that there was always something new being looked by the news- - Angles. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 4 BK: Yeah, pretty in-depth, at least, from what you’re saying. In terms of like, you know, weighing the pros and cons of certain treatment approaches. And anywhere else? You know, Angles – were there community organizations that were influencing your knowledge of HIV and AIDS? RA: I’m trying to think of what years… I was aware of what various organizations were doing. I was aware of what AIDS Vancouver was doing at one point, but not initially. We might come back to this. BK: Sure, yeah. We can definitely come back to it. So, you’re starting to hear all of this information. You come to Vancouver, you start reading Angles, so you’re getting a lot more information. So, how is this – as you’re learning about HIV and AIDS and learning about the epidemic – how is this influencing you and your behaviour, and…? RA: Um… I wasn’t – I was already with a partner. We were in a monogamous relationship. Still, I’m with the same partner. So, the things that – I’m just thinking behaviourally – I was aware of people being afraid to go near persons who were diagnosed with AIDS, and I remember just being annoyed and horrified at people thinking, based on nothing, that one can become infected by sharing a glass of water with someone, and things like that. So, if you’re asking about change in behaviour, my behaviour, I felt, was consciously different from some other people that I had noticed, who had – who were buying into some kind of assumption of what’s safe versus what’s not safe, when not everyone fully understood how HIV was – could be transmitted. And I hadn’t – I don’t know, I had no qualms about being in an environment or a room with lots of other people who were infected with HIV, or – I can’t say I was in circumstances where there were many people on hand diagnosed with AIDS, but I visited people in the hospital who were at a particular stage of illness. And I had no qualms about providing comfort. So, change behaviourally – it’s not a change of my own behaviour, it’s just a conscious departure from other people’s behaviour, which I felt was irrational. BK: Yeah, there was – I mean, there must have been a lot of fear and uncertainty at the time for a lot of people, I imagine, which is probably where a lot of that fear may have come from. RA: Yes. Can I just take a water break? BK: Oh, yeah. RA: And the camera keeps rolling? BK: Well, if – yeah. It’s just water. RA: Cheers. [laughs] I’m trying to think of other behavioural changes in response. One behavioural – one response is actually to take on an advocacy role in this regard, where I had not been that way before. And, in fact – you’re going to talk to other people in the same situation, and probably that’s part of their lifeblood where they’ve been activist and put themselves on the front line, and been willing to maybe get in a bit of situation with the law, or get thrown in jail, “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 5 or whatever, for whatever. Anyhow, that’s a bit of behavioural change for me as well – to actually engage in a degree of advocacy where you’re willing to engage in civil disobedience. BK: And do you think – I mean it’s very hard to speculate about this, I guess, but do you think you would have found yourself in that kind of an advocacy role without something like HIV and AIDS? RA: It’s hard to say because, for example, there was talk of quarantine of people, for example. I’m just trying to think of comparable forms of abuse of rights in other circumstances with respect to the gay community. I’m coming up blank at the moment on that, so there was just something… Oh, actually, also, possibly with respect to violence against gays. BK: And that was increasing at the time, or…? RA: Well, I’m just thinking of something else that might have inspired me to engage in civil disobedience as well. But that was only in context of, say memorial for people who were killed in Orlando recently, or commemorate – sorry, acknowledge, the murder of Matthew Shepard – things like that. None of that was civil disobedience, but it was very overt, public display and with a large group of other gay, queer, and other persons. BK: So, I mean, in some senses, at least, HIV and AIDS really kind of provided that spark or that kind of rallying – or more so the public, probably, reaction to the epidemic? RA: I think there was also another layer of cruelty to this, in that policy seemed to be slow. Health innovations seemed to be slow in coming up to speed to actually have more success in understanding what’s going on and helping people who are infected. And I don’t even think I was focused so much on prevention – just thinking of, there’s not enough being done to help the people who are living with AIDS at the time, or with HIV. BK: Yeah. How did you perceive the medical reaction to the epidemic? Like, from a policy level or institutional level? RA: I don’t feel I was very well-positioned at the time to have analyzed the policy response, but I was going by reaction of other people and their assessment of, say, the Canadian government’s policy regarding AIDS. So, with ACT UP, I participated in some interventions that were trying to promote improved response from the Canadian government regarding an AIDS strategy. BK: On a Federal level. RA: Federal level. BK: Well, we can definitely talk about ACT UP. That would be a very interesting thing to cover. RA: At some point, yeah. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 6 BK: But maybe before we go there – because you were beginning to talk about it, what was your perception around the governmental reaction to the epidemic? I guess we need to talk about a couple levels there. RA: Well, my perception was limited. I didn’t do my own research on that. I was again going on what, say, other members of ACT UP were saying. And I don’t remember all the details at this point. I know at one point, there was – this is provincial level – wanting more access, guaranteed access to AZT, for example. Yeah, I can’t – I can’t honestly recall the Federal issue at this point – the Federal shortcoming. I was just providing support to other people who I felt and trusted had done their own critical assessment of Federal policy. BK: It’s hard to talk about HIV and AIDS in Vancouver without talking a little bit I think about the Vander Zalm government. What were – do you recall what your feelings were around their response to the epidemic? RA: Well, the thing that I remember the most is the push for quarantine legislation, and that didn’t happen. And, I don’t know to what extent public outcry against that played a role or if there was no hope in the first place that that could have happened, but the fact that that was being promoted or considered, that still seemed to constitute a rallying cry – a point for people to mobilize against. That’s the one thing that stands out relevant to the discussion at hand regarding Vander Zalm. There’s plenty of other that is quite whacky, having nothing to do with this, but again that’s B.C. politics back in ’87, ’88, and so on. BK: Okay. If you recall anything else, we can definitely come back to that. RA: Do we have to seek permission from Vander Zalm…? BK: We won’t be. [laughs] RA: Okay. BK: And I’m sure some people will have a lot to say about him. We were talking about behavioural change and – so, it’s really interesting that when you talked about behavioural change, you talked about a change towards becoming an activist or an advocate. But did you feel like you changed your sexual practices or your sexual behaviour in response to the epidemic, or was this something that was not really part of the equation? RA: Well, it wasn’t a part of the equation, because I was in a relationship as of 1984. BK: Wow. RA: Wow. And the relationship is monogamous and, just in that context, this – that particular angle doesn’t factor in. BK: It wasn’t like a calculated risk reduction strategy. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 7 RA: No. One’s always aware though, right? Just in terms of, you need to understand what’s going on around you and understand other people’s decision-making for their actions. But, yeah, there’s no harm reduction within the relationship. I guess there’s… [audio loss, starting 26:27-28:54] …typically, during sexual acts though – wow, this sounds clinical – thoughts of, “Oh, yes, so this would be a point of transmission,” for example. But that one’s not preoccupied with that thought for long. That it’s just something that one may think of. BK: It’s not the rationale behind the decision-making, but it probably somehow factors in. RA: It’s just somehow within one’s awareness, right. BK: Interesting. So, you come to Vancouver in 1987. What’s it like? The community’s dealing with, at that point, what has quite clearly become a health crisis. What’s going on in the community at the time? What does it look like? RA: I’m picturing Davie Street, for example. It seemed very vibrant. It seemed very cruisy – very full of gay guys. I also remember – oh god, which street – Homer or Richards street, I just remember there seemed to be a fair bit of hustling at the time out there. I remember there were more clubs. I didn’t go to all the clubs, but I remember they were there – saw people hanging out near them, talked to folks. It just seemed a little busier. I’m not saying it’s not busy now or vibrant now. I think it certainly quieted down for a while and has picked up – and I’m not sure if it’s exceeded the way things have been or if it’s about the same as it was. BK: Did it feel more close-knit or more intimate or something than now? Is that kind of your perception? RA: I wouldn’t – I’m not looking at it in those terms. I’m just thinking of, at least at the time, maybe also guys were more visually identifiable as – I mean, choosing to present themselves in a particular way, such that loud and clear – yeah, one’s gaydar could actually be defective and still tell. Just thinking about other things, I remember Little Sister’s being an interesting place, just the range – the broad range of people who would be in there. BK: Kind of a community epicenter, hey? RA: A bit. I’m not sure… I didn’t have a lot of experience with the center at the time. I believe it existed then, so I can’t really add any observations about that. We can come back to this as well, but in general you were asking about what the community looked like or felt like, right? BK: And then if we factor HIV and AIDS into that as well, how was that manifesting in the community? RA: Well, I’ve heard – I’ve heard stories of how there would be people who would somewhat, you know, disappear from the scene. I experienced that a bit. Maybe just in the oddest places “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 8 where there would people in different contexts – say, places that I frequent, say, an art gallery. Someone who would work there – chat, be friendly with the person – and then the person just suddenly, without warning, being gone. Certain disappearances of people seemed ominous. I would hear secondhand things of explanations of why some people would disappear. Some stories, uncorroborated, suggested suicide attempt or successful suicide. There were a number of subtle and noticeable disappearances. It’s not always people you’re really close to, but you still are aware that certain people have maybe changed a bit, and then they’re gone. BK: So, it wasn’t always happening at the center of your life. It could actually be on these weird peripheral edges. RA: Yes. BK: Was it also manifesting more close to home in any respects, like in your friend group, or…? RA: Well, close to home, there was an attempted suicide in an apartment building I was in, one of the first apartment buildings in Vancouver. We ended up moving to another apartment. There was just something ominous or depressing about the person who is vacating the space and we just temporarily had the person’s things stored in the apartment before we fully moved – before the person fully moved out, even though we’d slightly already moved in. Um… Repeat your question – the last question, please. BK: Oh, I was just curious – you were talking about at the periphery, not necessarily right in your immediate group, but sometimes you were noticing these absences or these silences or these disappearances, you said, all over the place, in these weird places. RA: Well, the most intimate was – there were some things within an intimate group. There were things, say, within the context of ACT UP, where I had to drive someone to the hospital, and that was the last I saw of the person. There was a teacher of mine in university who was diagnosed and… That was a surprise because that was the first time that I’d encountered someone more in my – I’d compare it to a workplace environment or in an education environment, where someone was in essence a supervisor for me or a higher-up in the food chain than me, dealing with this. And… [long pause] Okay, you’re asking about, just in a more intimate context, so, in essence, someone you know – you know rather well or deal with a lot… BK: Yeah. Just because you were talking about these peripheral people who were disappearing, I was just curious about how this was impacting you in other ways or in ways that were more noticeable in a sense. RA: Yeah, so there weren’t many but there were a few cases where there were people that I knew rather well. And there were different types of relationship with these people. The last one, the person in the university, it’s a professional relationship but that still – no reason it shouldn’t – I was going to say, it still had a profound impact when the person died. BK: Absolutely. So, it was really manifesting – you’re talking about it in a professional circumstance, in your activist circle, at the periphery of your community – it’s really showing up “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 9 all over the place, I guess. So, to bring this back to the level of community, how is the community responding to the epidemic at this time? What’s going on in terms of the community response? RA: Well, I may be getting the years a little forward or backward here. I remember trying to help promote something for ACT UP. So, there I was on Davie Street where now Jim Deva Plaza is, next to the Macs Milk or whatever was there at the time, handing out flyers, and people seeing the flyers and not being very receptive and throwing them away. So, in general, maybe that’s not the best way to recruit people for being – engaging in something activist for a particular cause. I don’t – I don’t think it’s fair to say that people weren’t concerned about who ACT UP was trying to help, but perhaps that type of recruitment for more support wasn’t the most effective approach. BK: Yeah, it may have been a problem with the strategy rather than the actual cause. RA: Than the actual cause. I had a sense of going to the prof who died of AIDS. I was at a conference and remember being descended upon by – wow – being descended upon by a group of guys who, turns out, were wanting to ask about the prof back in Vancouver. And it became apparent – if they want to know how he’s doing, why don’t they just get in touch with him themselves. And so, I interpreted that as there’s a bit of fear to actually be connected to or stay in touch with someone, even if it’s a past acquaintance, for some. So, that’s a small subset of the community. That’s not necessarily speaking of any larger group, but I’m just suggesting that maybe there’s a mix of different responses. BK: Yeah. A lot of the time when we talk about this sort of thing, there’s this implicit assumption that everyone was involved in AIDS Vancouver or ACT UP, but certainly there would have been people who were backing away or scared. RA: Or people doing other things that are supportive – that look very different from what ACT UP was doing. BK: Well, I think maybe we should talk about ACT UP since we’ve poked around that one for a while now. I’m certainly interested in hearing about your experience. So, when did you become involved with ACT UP? RA: Probably have the year wrong. It might have been ’88 – it’s hard to say. I don’t think it was first year in Vancouver, but not too long after that. BK: And was the organization in Vancouver just forming at the time? RA: It was just forming and I think I was at one of the – I think I was at the first or second meeting. The room had – the room had men, women – yeah, a mix. I remember a bit of debate – some people getting a bit frustrated: “Why are we spending so much time talking about arranging childcare,” and things like that. I was struck by the diversity of people just from the perspective of what they – what their lives were engaged in. I think people in – someone from law, someone from advertising. Not everybody from immediately in the West End – there were “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 10 folks from Commercial Drive. I can give other examples and then leave you wondering, “Oh, what about these other forms of diversity.” But that’s just a sampler of what struck me at the time. BK: So, not just gay men. RA: Not just gay men. I don’t know how many would not consider themselves to be queer, but yeah, it was not just gay men. BK: From what you recall, what did those early meetings look like? What were you talking about doing and what were the goals of the organization. RA: I have pieces of paper that might answer that, but I did not review this in advance. I remember some of the meetings actually focused on coordinating particular protests around particular issues, and at this point in time, I remember the protests more than the issues. BK: Well, we can definitely talk about some of the protests as well. Do you recall any of those – like, what did ACT UP do? What did an ACT UP action or protest look like? RA: I remember one, it was just – was it a march to City Hall? How did folks get there? My goodness. I just remember, there was some – an assembly at City Hall. I’m sure it wasn’t the VAG [the Vancouver Art Gallery], I’m sure it was at City Hall. I can refer to other things that I had nothing to do with, but I’m not going to do that because I think I might misrepresent or miss details. Actually though, while a group of us were protesting, a small subset was occupying some offices, so, that I can speak of. Other actions or activities. On West – others are going to talk about this. On West 4th near the Granville ramp there’s some – I don’t even know what – there’s some sort of sculptural number to indicate the actual street. Do you know what I’m referring to? BK: Are we talking about the 100-1000 thing? RA: Yes, so there was an intervention to tamper with that to increase the size of the number to reflect the number of diagnosed AIDS cases in British Columbia or Vancouver – one of those. Die-in on Robson Street. I think there were die-ins in other locations. Throwing peanuts at Perrin Beatty. BK: Were you involved in that as well? RA: Yep. Interesting part was – again, I don’t remember the details. At the time, I was convinced that more needed to be done, in which case an attempt to maybe defuse the power of the protest was for Perrin Beatty to shake hands with everyone. And I just kept my hands limp in my lap and wouldn’t shake. I didn’t throw peanuts but I generously provided them from my briefcase. BK: It sounds like that was a shrewd political strategy on his part. RA: Or not. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 11 BK: We can definitely talk about – I totally understand that remembering the dates and details of these things can be very challenging, but why did you get involved in ACT UP? What drew you to that group of people or that kind of organization? RA: Well, it seemed that action at the level of government and healthcare wasn’t moving fast enough. I was able to at least conclude that, not from analyzing policies from or anything like that but just seeing – observing around me and thinking this should not be. This can be better. Why isn’t it better? Also, aware of stalling and overt – it’s almost as if attempts to kill populations in the United States – say, the Reagan days. Feeling “Is this that much different here, in which case something more needs to be done, because otherwise maybe nothing’s going to be happening at all.” That’s part of why – getting involved. BK: And there were no other organizations doing that form of intervention or activism? Or, at least in your perception? RA: There were other organizations doing other things – and great that not everyone was doing the same thing. Great, as well, that whatever other courses of action there were, it wasn’t just one organization doing each of those other actions. So, at least there were multiple fronts with multiple organizations. So, who else was engaged in… Maybe ACT UP was the only one at the time engaged in civil disobedience to that degree – maybe. I don’t remember others. BK: And that was appealing because…? RA: Others probably wouldn’t or didn’t because it would possibly jeopardize some of their funding sources. BK: And that degree of direct action was appealing because of your perception of stalling and this inaction? Something had to be done. RA: The logic of engaging in some of this in-your-face stuff is to just get media attention, in part – get conversation started even if people are referring to those assholes or shit-disturbers. It’s still playing a part in a conversation. BK: Related to that, do you feel like ACT UP was fairly successful in promoting that conversation? Speaking of those tactics, were they effective in ACT UP’s case? RA: I think they played a part and I don’t think they or anyone else deserves single-handed credit. I remember having conversation about this with one of my teachers at university, and we disagree on this in terms of ACT UP’s role or effectiveness. I’d say that things were better with ACT UP doing the things that they did, as successful or unsuccessful as any, or all of them, may have appeared. BK: I guess this is the same question from a different angle: do you have a sense of what the community perception of ACT UP was? Did they kind of see it as ACT UP filling…? I mean, “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 12 it’s hard to talk about this homogenously, but did they kind of see that ACT UP was filling a niche that needed to be filled? RA: Some people I’ve talked to say yes and some say no. There’s no monolithic response to this. BK: Anything else that you remember about ACT UP and the way it functioned? Anything, really? RA: One thing I remember is maybe it stuck around too long. BK: Okay. Meaning what? RA: Meaning after a while the numbers did decrease in terms of who was involved. It was a question of at what point was it still really needed and I think that was reflected in the numbers of people attending, being engaged in it. BK: Where did you jump off the ACT UP ship? Were you involved until the bitter end or…? RA: I don’t know if I was till the bitter end or if anything went on afterwards. Yeah. I’m trying to remember the year for the life of me, but I’m going to guess that it falls within the bounds of this study – this mid-90’s cut-off. I’m sure it was before then. BK: So much, I think, of what ACT UP was doing was against the Social Credit government, and sometime around this time, too, the NDP actually come to power, so that also might have been a transition moment for ACT UP. RA: In hindsight, I’m not sure. BK: I’m not either, to be honest. RA: I’m going to have to read the book. BK: What else? Is there anything else about ACT UP? We can certainly circle back there if we remember anything or if anything comes to mind as we go on. RA: Well, if you don’t get anything from anyone else from there, I’m happy to provide additional after this. BK: Of course. That’s certainly an option. We can definitely continue talking at some other point. So, you get involved in ACT UP, but that’s maybe a year or two after you come to Vancouver. Were you involved in any other kinds of community responses prior to that? RA: Prior to that, no. No. BK: Or at the same time, or afterwards? “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 13 RA: Oh, sorry. You know, I’m in activist mode here. I already mentioned I was a volunteer with an AIDS Vancouver project, right? Focusing on the prevention side – focusing on congratulating gay men for practicing safer sex, as opposed to saying, “You should do this.” Thinking what else… BK: What kind of a context was that? Was it a workshop or…? RA: No, that was an ad campaign. I was just helping with outreach to journalists to make sure they’re aware of this and make sure they’re connected with the right people if they want further information. BK: And that was specifically around condom use? RA: Yes. It was – oh, what was it? I can’t remember the name of it. “Gay men play safe?” Oh, wow. That’s not a HIM thing? BK: I couldn’t tell you. RA: It’s a campaign where they were using playful names for, like, “the big baguette,” and things like that. Does that ring a bell? BK: [laughs] No, but that sounds great. RA: Did the camera catch me pointing down here? BK: I don’t know. I don’t think so. We can check. So, it was kind of like a men’s health campaign sort of thing? RA: I believe it was a national campaign as well. BK: Oh, okay. That would be really interesting to take a look at. So, you were involved with AIDS Vancouver in that capacity, and then what else? What else was there? RA: And we’re only going as far as the mid-nineties, right? BK: Yep. Well, I mean, if there’s a bit of bleed over, that’s totally fine. RA: It is really just those two things. BK: You mentioned Queer Nation. RA: Yeah, but that wasn’t – we’re focusing on a response to issues pertaining to HIV and AIDS, correct? Queer Planet… BK: Queer Planet in Vancouver, yes. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 14 RA: Did I say Queer Nation earlier? BK: No, you probably said Queer Planet earlier but I just said Queer Nation. RA: Queer Planet, I only went to two meetings. In essence, they were just – they seemed to be very much about being “out” and in-your-face about it. So that, “We’re not going in the closet. We’re kissing on the ferry.” Things like that. B.C. Ferry. BK: It’s a very kind of public, in-your-face… not unlike ACT UP in some respects, I imagine. RA: Except, just about being gay. BK: Yeah, not about HIV and AIDS. RA: No. It might have been, but not to my knowledge. BK: Was there a lot of overlap between those two organizations in terms of who was in them? I mean, based on your limited perception. RA: There might have been overlap of two people, and I’m not talking about me or my partner, and that’s possibly how I knew about it, and thought, “Eh, I only have time for one organization.” BK: Any other – thinking about community responses to the epidemic, were there any other capacities in which you were involved? We’ve talked about activism, we’ve talked about the public health side of it. RA: Those are the only ones that come to mind, other than just individual shows of support – giving someone a ride, visiting someone in the hospital – things like that. BK: Was that a pretty major part of your life as well? RA: No, that was less frequent. BK: I’m just going to stop this for a second. [End of video 1, 59:18] [Start of video 2] BK: Okay, so we were talking about the different capacities in which you were involved in activism and advocacy. Maybe we can just shift gears a little bit and talk about, maybe, what that advocacy and that activism was a response to, which was, kind of, at least in some respects, how the public was reacting to the epidemic. So, do you – do you remember much about… like, the mainstream media or the people outside of the gay community – how they were responding to the epidemic. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 15 RA: I remember people expressing concern about being in the same room with people with AIDS or with HIV… But that was some people, not all people, but – it’s the some people that stood out. And I always tried to make sense of – why did they feel this way? Why did they think this way? You’re looking for reactions or attitudes of people? BK: Yeah. Yeah, I mean… you know, we were talking about, you know community – gay community responses to the epidemic. We can’t really talk about that as one thing – one monolithic thing – and I’m sure we can’t really do the same… we also can’t do that for mainstream responses, but yeah… What were some people’s attitudes? Or what were you encountering in your life, if anything of that nature? RA: Well… Outside of gay – the gay community, outside of gay connections, people weren’t – it seemed people weren’t talking too much about it, but when they did it was… It seemed that when they did it was the few that had fears or panic or con– - they were just concerned about infection for themselves, it seemed… And just because outside of the gay community I wasn’t hearing a lot people talking about AIDS or HIV… I just don’t know to what extent that means they didn’t know about this, or weren’t noticing it, or just would rather not be discussing, for whatever reasons, and I don- - I can’t even speculate what those reasons… Well, I can speculate, but, I don’t know if those were the actual reasons they weren’t talking about it. BK: So, your primary perception was that there was a lot of silence. RA: That – that was my perception, yes. And when there wasn’t silence, it was negative or… I felt an irrational fear was people assuming a lot of things – assuming a lot of the worst and focusing primarily on infection as opposed to what’s actually going on with the people themselves who were infected. BK: Just this general, irrational fear of illness and death. RA: Yeah. Yeah. BK: And was there this intensification of homophobia or stigma that you – that you perceived? RA: Well, I remember hearing jokes about AIDS attached to being gay – hurtful jokes. So, I see that as homophobic. I remember reading about… it must have been in the newspapers, and maybe not even just in Angles, people being quoted, maybe to actually demonstrate the range of misconceptions or differing perceptions about what’s going on with respect to the epidemic, and some of those quotes suggesting, in some cases, that this is justice for living a deviant lifestyle. BK: Do you recall the types of places you would have been hearing that kind of…? RA: I can’t – I can’t identify a specific place or a specific source. I have recollections that some of this would have been from Canadian media, some from U.S. media. In general, we tend to hear about certain loudmouthed individuals who don’t necessarily have anything intelligent to say, but they still have a large support group, and therefore they’re of interest in the news. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 16 BK: Yeah, I mean, people that were saying those things weren’t necessarily of – they were maybe representative of a certain subset of people, but they weren’t representative, you know, of everyone. RA: Yes, so at no point – I’m not talking about any generalization of the gay community or any other community. I’m just saying there are certain pockets of people that have commonalities, and maybe see themselves as kindred spirits, just from the perspective of what they believe regarding the epidemic at that time. BK: And do you have any perceptions around how that changed over time – those mainstream ideas about HIV and AIDS, or…? RA: Well, it seemed that any media – say any news that I’d read or watch or listen to tended to be critical of people who took views that were based on a lot of assumptions and were hostile and homophobic. And I think, in general – I remember seeing a lot of references in news stories to people saying, or making certain claims that were negative about people with AIDS and gay men. But I think that whenever I was reading quotes of that sort, it – it’s as if the journalist had a bit of an agenda just to point out, here’s the range of people that we’re dealing with and this is an extreme. And the value I see in reading about somebody’s extreme, homophobic rants, cases, ways of thinking, is just… get me thinking about why are people this way? How can they be different? Can anything be done to make them different and see things differently or understand things differently? Some of that, at the same time, when I wasn’t even understanding what was going on, of course, but still thinking that some of the views of others being presented in the news were just way too – way, way, way out there, and anti-humanist. BK: Yeah, and in some ways, seeing those small groups of people that have a very loud voice could be something that could maybe spark – spark something like ACT UP where it’s like “Well, these people are using the media to amplify their voices. Maybe that’s - we’re a small group of people who can probably use the same kind of process to amplify our voices,” as a response to that in some ways, maybe. RA: Yeah, it’s possible, yes. BK: But that’s – that’s a little leap. So, how did the community – again based on your experiences – how did the community manage to survive the epidemic, because there’s – you know you are dealing with some of these homophobic and stigmatizing reactions to the epidemic from elsewhere, and, of course, you’re dealing with friends, partners, many community leaders becoming sick. How did the community manage to kind of rally and – and combat the epidemic? RA: There are things that I didn’t engage in and I’ve heard of, so others can speak to that, such as people providing very unique forms of support based on whatever resources and talents that they have at their disposal… This is going to be the only thing I talk about where I don’t even know anything about it but I’ve heard second-hand that drag queens played a big role in providing various forms of support. So, the community – I’m just thinking, what have I seen in the community. For sure, I’ve seen a subset of the community engaged in activist things. I’ve “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 17 seen another subset of the community engaged in health organization work, and not just AIDS Vancouver, but eventually PWA Society as well, and then a lot more recent things than all of that as well. So, the activist side, the health organization side – I’m thinking that there are other allies of the gay community, just within politics. There were voices that were not necessarily gay at all in support of the community recovering. One thing that was visible to me – it seemed that the community became less vibrant for a little while… progressing into the early nineties and mid-nineties, but then started maybe picking up again. I’m not – I don’t know what all the various strategies, tactics for actually contributing to resilience there actually were at the time, but there’s still the sense of the community coming back after a dip in terms of, visually, vitality. BK: Can you… describe that? Can you put your finger on what that means? RA: Well, describe the dip or what…? BK: Well, I mean – yeah, that kind of vibrancy. RA: Well… I’m remembering, you could be on Davie Street, for example, and it seemed there was – there were a lot of gay men. And then, after a while, there are – there are gay men, but not very many. A noticeable difference for “x” number of years and then thing starting to pick up again, where it seems, yeah, that’s kind of the way things looked when I first came to Vancouver. BK: And that’s the way it still feels, kind of? RA: It still feels that way now, yeah… But… What different nodes of community did actually help with that recovery? Yeah, I think you’ll be getting different pieces of that picture from different people. I can just speak to what I saw – I saw some health organizations doing: PWA Society and AIDS Vancouver, and ACT UP. BK: Well, it’s – kind of continuing on that thread a little bit, we talked a little bit about some of the things that some people in the mainstream – or the general public – were saying about HIV and AIDS. What was the gay community – what was the message around HIV and AIDS that the gay community was trying to promote, or organizations within the gay community? How did that differ, maybe, from other representations? RA: I’m trying to… I don’t know if any organization had to promote compassion, but I feel – I feel there was compassion. I don’t think it was, again, from everybody, but I think there was still compassion. BK: Within the community? RA: Within the community. Just based on who was involved in these – the health organizations – who was involved in ACT UP, for example. And again, I’ve heard some other stories about other things within the community, but I haven’t seen that firsthand, so. But based on those “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 18 stories, there’s more action within the community, all of these different things adding up to promoting some kind of resilience. And, in the meantime, during the dip, which is what I’m calling it now, all of a sudden, I don’t know – still various forms of compassion and support that I expect you’re going to hear about more in this project, taking on very many different forms. So, when you’re asking about what the community did, yeah, I’m just providing these little bits that I’ve seen very intimately, and others will have seen a lot more intimately and different things, I expect. BK: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I’m also thinking about though, going back to the safer sex – AIDS Vancouver safer sex campaign you were involved in in some way, shape, or form. You know, on one hand, you have some people on the mainstream – or maybe some people on the fringe of the mainstream – saying that, you know, AIDS is the result of the gay lifestyle and a deviant lifestyle. So, I’m just curious – maybe you can spell out exactly what the gay response – the gay community’s response looked like in contrast to that… Based on your little piece of the puzzle. RA: Um… You’re asking me to extrapolate beyond my immediate experience. BK: Well, no. Well, I’m just kind of thinking about the – the juxtaposition between… You know, you talked about some mainstream responses and you touched on this brief time that you were working with AIDS Vancouver. Like, was this messaging around safer sex – was that something that was kind of consistently being put out there by the community as a response? RA: My understanding is that that campaign was in response to apparent lack of success of other campaigns that say “You should do this” or “You should do that.” In which case, if word had already got out there somehow that practicing safer sex reduces risk of transmission of HIV, then you’re providing, I call this, evaluative support, saying “Hey, you’re doing something good. Congratulations.” As opposed to being prescriptive: “You should do something.” BK: Positive reinforcement instead of negative reinforcement. RA: Positive reinforcement for an existing action as opposed to a reprimand… So, a community response, or a response – it’s not necessarily from the community. It could have been from health authorities, for example, saying “You should do this.” That kind of messaging was out there and the AIDS Vancouver messaging was a bit different in that regard. Other responses – trying to think of others. BK: Again, this is something that we can circle back to. RA: Yeah, give me a moment. BK: Of course. RA: [long pause] Circle back. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 19 BK: Sure. I think it’s kind of interesting that that model of more positive reinforcement, is – that’s kind of become the convention now in, I think – in prevention efforts, I think. Like, looking at some of HIM’s recent campaigns, for instance. But, yeah, tangential. And I know we’ve kind of touched on this a lot, but now that we’re a little bit further into our conversation, you know, looking at this period where you were involved in activism and AIDS interventions, how did – how did the epidemic shift your identity within the community or your relationship to the community? RA: When – I think when I first became involved in ACT UP, I felt alienated from the community and then I just began to gradually accept that, yeah, in general, someone’s being perceived as a nuisance and there’s debate whether or not something’s actually productive or counter-productive. So, I went from initially thinking, “Wow, this community’s not supportive” to “Well, there’s more than one way to do things and we can disagree,” but… Recognizing that, at least later on into the epidemic that it was – it seemed more clear that the community overall was supportive, because I think there were less unknowns, which was helpful for starters, and… I’m just trying to think of activism in the face of not fully understanding everything that’s going on in the first place, how well that’s received. If earlier on, less was understood, possibly some other’s assumptions were perceived as “Why are my assumptions not valid, and therefore, your in-your-face activism is kind of not in everybody’s interest.” Again, I’m trying – I shouldn’t be doing that. I’m putting myself in the head of others, trying to imagine what they were thinking and why they were thinking. So… BK: It’s hard to avoid doing that. RA: I shall stop doing that. BK: Did it, kind of – I mean, from what I understand you saying, it’s in some ways – through ACT UP, you kind of found that there’s room for multiple different kind of perspectives or voices within the community. RA: Yeah, especially hearing from people after feeling – having done something good, that wasn’t necessarily perceived that way. So, we don’t have to agree but… I had an understanding – I was able to make sense of what was being done in terms of being one of many different nodes, one of many different parts contributing to a conversation. And, overall, the conversation is richer if constructive voices taking different approaches, even if they’re very different, they’re still working towards the same goal. I think that took for a while for me to twig into that. So, initially I perceived less solidarity – less solidarity of the community when there might have been more in this regard. BK: Again, a difference in tactics, opposed to a difference in end goals. And, I guess, from what you were previously articulating, you found – you found a place in the community through this as well? Like, you said you weren’t going to clubs and bars, that wasn’t really your scene. RA: Right. Yeah… At that time – well, at that time… over the years, you know, casually, now- and-then, we’d go to one of the bars for a meeting, even, over beer – work-related. But yeah, that… So even though I wasn’t very immersed in the club or the bar scene, there was still some “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 20 degree of connection to the bars and the clubs. And, did any of that change because of the – I don’t think any of that changed over the years because of the beginning of the epidemic and how that transformed. I think that’s just a matter of change with respect to my own social circumstances and where I am in life – nothing really to do with the epidemic. BK: That’s totally – totally understandable. I guess I was just thinking because you mentioned that you weren’t fully “out” when you moved to Vancouver and then – it might have just been, like, an overlap in the time frame. RA: Ten minutes off the plane, boom. BK: Well, I mean, certainly, there’s a lot more to the community than just – as crucial as the bars and the clubs are to a lot of people, there’s a lot more to the community. RA: Well, it made a difference that some of my teachers – I came here to study and some of my teachers were gay. BK: And that was another entry into the community. RA: That was an onramp, yeah. BK: I think we’ve touched on a lot of things that we can filter back to if we feel like it, but I think we can maybe start taking some steps more toward the present now, because we are interested in how people’s perceptions of HIV and AIDS have changed over time, and to try to think about how the stories we’re collecting may be useful for our present moment as well. So, I guess, one of the questions that we want to ask is how have your perceptions of HIV and AIDS changed over time, particularly since the rollout of the big antiretroviral intervention that comes in 1996, and moving toward the present? RA: So, when I think about it, my perceptions – during the early days of the epidemic, I was conscious of it but not an asshole about it, in that there were things I didn’t understand, but at the same time there seemed to be sufficient evidence that, yeah, just sharing a glass of water, being in the same room, or getting someone’s sweat on you, or shaking hands with someone is not a big deal. Where things are at now, with the various forms of – the whole cascade of care actually for persons living with HIV… I’m aware that it’s actually a big deal to make sure that if someone is benefitting from a regiment of care, that they adhere to that, but otherwise it’s almost as if… It’s almost as if going from having unknowns to having so much more of this resolved has just really normalized how I think with respect to persons living with HIV in that the only thing I’m thinking about is if someone’s expressing any – expressing any, having any problems or issues, just with respect to treatment or – or anything some have related to living with HIV. But other than that, it just all feels very normalized to me. BK: It’s no longer front of mind. RA: No, even back during the early days of the epidemic – I’m trying to think if, to what extent I had the sense of “Us” and “Them.” I don’t know how much of it was conscious and I don’t know “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 21 how much of it was conscious to sort of suppress a sense of “Us” and “Them,” just by virtue of thinking – focusing on the commonalities as opposed to the fact someone is infected with a virus and I’m not. Back then, I was still conscious of that difference, but now it just – everything feels much more normalized in terms of the differences not jumping – not being very foreground to me. BK: Well, I mean there is – the difference is, tangibly, a lot less obvious now, in the sense that people aren’t – most people who get HIV now aren’t going to dead in very short matter of time, because we have, you know, all these treatments that are fairly accessible in B.C. to most people. RA: I’m not sure at what point it actually started to feel normalized for me. Would you use a different word than normalized? I… yeah. BK: No, I mean, that makes sense to me. RA: Okay, you’re on the record for that. [laughs] Does that respond to your question? BK: [laughs] A little – I think so. [End of video 2, 34:00] [Start of video 3]= BK: Okay, we were just talking about how your perception of HIV has changed over time. RA: Oh, to add to that, perception of HIV – perception versus understanding. I was going to say how understanding has changed but perception… Are they different things? BK: Well, on one hand, there’s a lot more knowledge out there, right? RA: Yeah. BK: So, I think they are different things, because understanding is okay, we know more about it, but… RA: Perception then has attitude, or? BK: Maybe. Perception is what HIV actually means now. It’s not just about the knowledge we have about HIV. It’s about what it means to us now because of these medical interventions that we have now – it means a different thing now, for a lot of people. RA: Yes, and I’m of two minds on that, because with all these interventions – now, it’s easy for me to say. My understanding is life can be pretty much as if there’s no infection, except you do to have to participate in a treatment regimen. And now you see all these – every Pride, you see these bus shelter ads: “Now, just take one of this a day,” versus, once upon a time, I don’t know… whatever batch of cocktails. Things seem simpler to an outsider but my understanding “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 22 as well is that it’s not that simple. But still, it does feel normalized to me as an outside viewer. One – I’m of one mind thinking, well, infection is less scary or less a big deal than it had been, but at the same time, I’m also thinking, from a political thinking, you’re always at the mercy of how government or your healthcare system is set up. And I just watch in the United States things seeming to try to take a bizarre backflip into very backwards thinking – not sure if that’s actually fully going to succeed, but… Where I’m going with this is, if infection seems less of a big deal these days, well, I’m not one hundred percent that that’s correct, but it’s still the impression that I have. BK: And I’m sure we’ll get plenty of different perspectives on that. But that institutional aspect about how both prevention and care have become much more medicalized – I think that’s something that’s worth thinking about, for sure. Circling back for one moment, did you – so, you were fairly involved with ACT UP and with a couple other organizations. By that point in the epidemic, were people experiencing burnout? Was the burden of the community caring – sometimes the community was doing all of the work it must have felt like, or was the case in some instances – but was there kind of this moment where you experienced burnout or anybody else in the community was experiencing that? RA: So, burnout would be from just having to do too much and feeling too – providing more support than maybe your brain, mind, body can handle, or… BK: Withdrawing, maybe, from some of those activities because of that. RA: I think in context of ACT UP, I wouldn’t say there was burnout there. I think that for me ACT UP – if there was any form of withdrawal… There was withdrawal – I ceased to be a member. That’s not from burnout. That’s actually just from weighing “Is this still necessary,” and then coming to a conclusion of, even if it was perceived still necessary, there’s some other things that outweigh the need to be involved in that – I suspect a career. BK: It was a redistribution of your energy. RA: Of my limited resources, yes. BK: So, that wasn’t something that you really experienced. RA: I’m trying to think about instances of burnout. Burnout suggests something that’s cumulative, right? I think, in general – I think maybe burnout could just be from something kind of having a bit of a punch in the gut, almost, in its impact that’s not necessarily cumulative – just to the extent that something finally hits home, in terms of a connection. I’m finding it interesting – I think of the death of the prof actually, in this regard, ‘cause we didn’t really get along very well, but I found that very difficult. And my sense after that was I wouldn’t want to go through that outside of someone who’s very immediately close to me – a friend, absolutely my partner, but… Yeah. That did give me a sense of feeling limited with respect to my capacities for providing support. BK: Yeah. I guess that would have put things in perspective in a way. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 23 RA: I know others went through a hell of a lot more than that – have gone through a hell of lot more than that, by the way. BK: Absolutely. This isn’t exactly related to that prior question. Again, something we’ve touched on a bit, talking about vibrancy and stuff, how did the epidemic really impact the community? How did the community emerge after the epidemic? You talked about that drop-off and that coming back to life, but beyond that, or can you add to that at all? RA: I think at the time it was coming back I was going to school, so I think my focus was on other things and limited with respect to how well I could actually notice what’s making a difference. It almost felt as if watching the hour hand of a clock moving, and then my partner and I observing, “You know, have you noticed, it almost seems as if there’s more gay men in the streets” – that kind of observation. I… yeah. I was a bit limited with respect to my ability to observe what mechanisms were contributing to resilience of the community. BK: Yeah, it will be interesting to try to weave all of this together in this sense, because I think people have different ideas of what that looked like. Kind of relatedly, with the benefit of two decades between where we’re ending our conversation and the present, looking back, what have we learned as a community in your mind? What are the lessons that we should be taking away from…? And lessons sounds kind of… but, we learn things as a community. RA: I think we’ve learned things from the epidemic and from other things in that even if we have differences, we work together. Differences with respect to how we want to do things – there is value in working together even it’s – we’re not doing everything all the same way. Lessons learned… That’s one. I think another lesson is it is possible to change minds or inform people who have misconceptions – very wrong ideas – about… Or even attitudes that are – that contribute to hostile responses to people in need. We’ve come – I would say, the epidemic did not start with the healthcare system being as focused as it is and mobilized as it is with this whole approach of Treatment as Prevention, preventative measures, say, PrEP and PEP. Other lessons… Other things learned… BK: I mean, I think… RA: It may be interesting to look at what hasn’t been learned as well. BK: Well, feel free to speak to that as well. RA: Well, we’ll see what I can come up with first. Lessons learned… BK: You spoke about compassion. I don’t know if that’s a lesson but it may be something that was illustrated by – the value of compassion. RA: I wonder if people – I don’t know how… So, okay, within the community and outside of the community. So, people in general – compassion. You still have people to this day who have very bizarre attitudes and responses to people living with HIV, after all the information that’s out “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 24 there and… I think a lesson is possibly: you can inform and change minds, but not all minds. Therefore, is it a problem, the minds you don’t change? It’s a problem if they’re violent, hurtful, but otherwise – yeah, it’s challenging to actually change everybody in a positive way. Other lessons… I’d say that at the outset of the epidemic, fear of difference. Fear of difference accounts for a lot of things – racism, sexism – maybe not, but definitely racism. I think fear of difference should never be underestimated. BK: And are you talking within the community or…? RA: I’m talking about overarching – the difference being, looking at the early days of the epidemic, people who were diagnosed with AIDS versus those who assumed they were not or will never be. So, there’s this fear of difference… Hang on. BK: You talked much earlier about Poz phobia and maybe the line that would have been drawn between someone who was HIV negative and HIV positive, especially early in the epidemic, and how that’s kind of been normalized. RA: That’s a more elegant way of saying it, yes. Other lessons… Yeah, fear of difference is enduring because we still have that manifest in many other circumstances today, having nothing to do with this present – this particular project focus. However, it does raise a question of any strategies that can promote or emphasize commonalities as opposed to the differences if actual hostility is an issue, which we seem to have with some of the Vander Zalm politicians, for example. Other lessons… Hm… BK: I guess we could just reframe it a little bit and say if you were talking to future generations about the epidemic, what are the big takeaways? What are the things that we have to be taking forward with us? I don’t know if that helps you at all. RA: I think it does. Never… Be open-minded, never assume. God, these sound so obvious. Always… I think there’s something dangerous if you end up having a sense of something is effecting someone else, such as a hurricane in Puerto Rico, or something like that, that allows you to just not be concerned about it. I think something that we’ve learned is the greater variety of supports that are available to people, including caregivers, is something that can help avoid burnout or help if burnout takes place. I think another thing learned is you do not – I think it’s difficult to predict in advance what the support looks like and from whom that support comes from. It almost seems a cliché first thought for me to actually envision the support being homogenously gay during the early days of the epidemic when I know that it was not. BK: Well, and even speaking of ACT UP, you talked about diversity, certainly from a gender perspective, right? And it’s interesting because – and I don’t want to generalize too much again here – but I don’t know how close gay men and lesbians were in terms of their activist goals prior to AIDS. RA: In Vancouver, I do not know. I know towards the last days of ACT UP, for example, it was male-female ratio, pretty much parity to the last few days of the organization. Water moment… “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 25 BK: Sure. I think we’re getting pretty close to the end here. Feel free to – if anything else comes to mind as we’re moving through these last couple questions, feel free to bring us back a bit. Do you have any advice for healthcare professionals or any ideas around how prevention and care might be improved in the present based on your experiences? RA: I’m remembering when I was visiting persons in the hospital and it doesn’t seem to be at the stage of the kind of hazmat description that I’ve heard, so I haven’t experienced the worst of that. I’ve seen a lot of compassion from various healthcare professionals – nurses, doctors. I’ve been really amazed at doctors in a particular practice, which specializes in patients living with HIV. I’m just remembering how things were different from Vancouver earlier on. I’d say it’s – I would say some doctors were caught a bit off-guard, even at the point where they were being encouraged to – encourage patients that were perceived a higher-risk group to be tested. I just remember in Montreal, my doctor seeming very clinical and blunt and straight-forward, but not quite personable in the way that some of the doctors have been in Vancouver, who were gay. I don’t know if that’s – I don’t have a lot of experience actually after – after… sorry, before. I don’t have a lot of experience with doctors after 1986 who haven’t been gay or gay-friendly in some capacity. The limited experience before I think was sufficient that I didn’t feel comfortable coming out to my doctors, except the doctor in Montreal. Therefore, I don’t know… I can’t really speculate – it depends a lot on the community. In Vancouver, I’m guessing there have – enough of the doctors have had their share of gay patients and I think we don’t hear too many horror stories about, “Wow, my doctor’s such a homophobe.” BK: Yeah, not in the West End, at least. RA: Not in the West End, at least. We may hear some of those stories from other people. And otherwise, if there are these – if we’re in a pocket of enlightenment, fabulous. And then for those outside of it, then B.C. Medical Association – push, promote for more cultural humility for the doctors so that there’s just no judgment and misconceptions about the broad range of patients they serve. BK: I think there’s something important around what you’re saying about health professionals having to coordinate their responses to things like this with the communities involved. Just implicitly, I guess that’s what you’re saying. RA: Yeah, and I don’t have a full picture of how big a problem that is outside of this wonderful bubble. BK: And it is a fairly wonderful bubble these days, I think. I’m sure we’ll hear different perspectives on that as well. I think that’s about it for my formal questions. We always like to end by asking if there’s anything that you wanted to discuss that you haven’t had a chance to, or that we didn’t have a chance to ask you about. Or if there’s anything that we touched on that you’d like to return to, or anything of that nature. RA: If I think of that, we can always do a second visit. BK: Absolutely. Thank you so much. “HIV in My Day,” Robert Ablenas (October 5, 2017) 26 RA: Okay, thank you. [End of video 3, 27:01]