Interview with Gerry Kasten

19-05-17-GK.docx




“HIV in My Day,” Gerry Kasten (May 17, 2019)

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“HIV in My Day” – Interview #88

May 17, 2019
Interviewee: Gerry Kasten (GK); Interviewer: Ben Klassen (BK)

Ben Klassen: Great, we’re recording. Thank you so much for being here, Gerry, and agreeing to
share your story with us today. Just to get started, can you tell me a little bit about when you first
got involved in the gay community or started engaging in gay life?

Gerry Kasten: Uh, certainly. I was about—I think somewhere around sixteen years old. I’d
been sexually active before that. I grew to my current adult height when I was age twelve. And
so, perhaps I appeared mature for my age, and started having sex when I was thirteen. But didn’t
really come out until probably around sixteen, many years later at sixteen. And this was in
Edmonton, so there was a gay rights organization, the Gay Alliance Towards Equality, so I
would go there and hang out in their drop-in centre, and meet people and converse with them.
And started going out to bars at probably about seventeen, with my brother’s I.D. Because back
in those days, picture I.D. was not required. And so, yeah, I was out in bars, they didn’t really
care so much as long as you actually had I.D. The first night I went out to a gay bar was quite
momentous actually, because coincidentally it was the night of the first empress ball in
Edmonton. So, things were fairly quiet actually, until midnight and then more or less at the
stroke of midnight, all these queens trouped in. And they were all wearing really extravagant
costumes and then everybody started dancing and there was this frou-fra and everything, and
then there were announcement about the new empress. So, I thought that’s what gay bars were
like all the time. And so—

BK: If only.

GK: That’s right. I learned otherwise, but it was quite a momentous introduction to the gay bar.

BK: Wow, it sounds like quite a lively community.

GK: Edmonton was and still is quite a lively community, maybe because of their horrendous
winters. What else is there to do, but inside stuff? Anyways, yeah, they have an amazing and
thriving arts community, and of course they’re the capital city, and so stuff like that. So, it was
quite a dynamic gay scene in Edmonton.

BK: And were you meeting other gay youth at the time, like young folks like yourself?

GK: Yes, not a lot, not a lot of gay youth. Because people I think didn’t come out that early.
Many—I think then as now, a lot of people came out when they reached somewhere around legal
drinking age and were able to go out to gay places. I don’t know, maybe now that we have a
broader diversity of access that’s changed, because I certainly seem to see gay people coming out
a lot younger. And you know, it’s a different time, there’s different conversations happening now
than there was then.






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BK: I’m not as aware of what Edmonton’s gay community looked like back then, so was it kind
of – geographically, was there a little bit of a ghetto?

GK: There was no—I mean, in retrospect, there probably was a bit of a gay ghetto, in that
there’s an area of Edmonton where there’s a lot of apartments, and so they – just circumstantially
a lot of gay people lived in that area. Because, that’s where there was like, lots of apartments. So,
everybody kind of lived in that area. But there wasn’t a gay neighbourhood, say like the Davie
Village, or something like that. So, people were kind of coming from all over the place, all over
the place like geographically within Edmonton, and I suppose from outlying communities as
well. There were two gay bars at that time, there was what was the original bar, which I think
opened in 1969, I’m not sure, because it was called Club Seventy. That’s, you know, forward
thinking. And then there was Flashback. And so, Club Seventy was right downtown and
Flashback was not right downtown, but still in the centre of the city. And yeah, they’re both gay
bars. Bars were different then. They ran on—uh, what were they called? Like, party permits,
basically. You were allowed one party permit per week, so the clubs tended to open on Friday
and Saturday. And then Friday typically would be, you paid an entrance fee and then it was like
as much beer as you could drink. Right, because that wasn’t—you didn’t need a license for that,
because people were paying membership. And you were in effect, giving beer away. And then on
Saturdays, they got a liquor license so they could serve spirits and beer. I don’t know, perhaps
they had wine. I don’t know. It was before wine was a thing. Like you know, clearly there’s
always been wine, but drinking wine out at a bar was not really a thing back then, people drank
beer or spirits. And you know, there was like gin and vodka and rum and rye. I think that was it.

BK: Wow. And what years was that, roughly?

GK: Well, if I was seventeen, it would’ve been 1976. So, that sounds about right.

BK: So, when did you first hear about HIV or whatever it was called at the time?

GK: Yeah, that would’ve been I think in news reports, because within the gay community, there
was some discussion of the news reports, in what was it, 1981, when suddenly there were people
dying of something. And it was gay men. And it was—I think it was more about Kaposi
sarcoma, and you know, they couldn’t figure why gay men were getting this disease that only
happened in old Jewish men. And you’ve likely seen the historical reports of those newspaper
articles. So, they did sort of permeate into the gay community. Another thing that was talked
about a lot at the time was people were really worried that poppers caused AIDS. So, there was a
lot of discussion of that, and there was a lot of sort of, places stopped selling poppers. And then
started selling them again because people really like poppers.

BK: It’s still a problem today.

GK: That’s right. So, but there was that discussion that some disease state was killing gay men.
And you know, there was a lot of talk of gay cancer and stuff like that. I think, like I’m not sure I
could set a date to it, but I remember what did they call it, LTV-III [HTLV-III] or something? I
can remember discussions around that, and then I do remember sort of the academic—competing
academic claims of discovering the virus, between what the French researchers and American





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researchers, whose names I can’t remember. And then the settling on human immunodeficiency
virus. And then you know, lots of historical things, so I remember things like Liberace and Rock
Hudson getting sick. Particularly Liberace because it was so—you know, it was the watermelon
diet, he lost all that weight because he went on a watermelon diet. And then Rock Hudson, who
is clearly ill, but no one was talking about what he was ill with. And then, I’m trying to think
when, I think that it was [sighing] 1984 or ‘85, that Edmonton had someone who came out as
having AIDS. So that was like the first case in Edmonton. And he was someone who was out in
the community and was—well, he was just out in the community. I didn’t personally know him
but saw him out in the community and stuff like that, so I really can’t remember when that was.
It was, I would say, several years after we knew about AIDS and HIV. And it was sort of a
matter of, for a lot of people, I think that was something that happened in the big city, or the big
cities in the U.S. And that kind of thing. Although, on the insistence of a partner, we started
having safe sex about 1985. So, he was just kind of like, I’m sexually active and you’re sexually
active so we should probably do this thing. And that’s basically when I started having safe sex.
Because I know a friend of mine and I went to San Francisco in 1980 for New Year’s. 1981. So
really, it’s luck of the draw for me that I wasn’t infected. And it’s actually entirely possible that
my friend was infected actually during that trip. He was probably more sexually active than I
was, during that trip. And so, it was, yeah, like I say, luck of the draw for me.

BK: And safe sex, you mean using condoms?

GK: Using condoms. As you likely know, there was a lot of controversy about oral sex. But
Canada seemed to settle on that oral sex was safe. Although, like there were these gradations. So,
I would not brush my teeth or floss if I was going out and suspected that I might be having sex.
So, I would like, just use mouthwash, but not brush my teeth or floss. That was the chat, that
maybe that kind of opening up of your bloodstream could contribute to transmission through oral
sex. And it’s later, but I do know someone who states that they were infected through oral sex.
So, beats me.

BK: Yeah, I’ve heard the same thing. It’s a bit of an anomaly, but…

GK: Yeah. So yeah, really it was about using condoms. Safe sex was about using condoms. And
after sort of probably a brief intermission, continuing to have oral sex, or unprotected oral sex.
Oral sex with condoms is not very tasteful. Licking tires, so… Nonetheless, I do know some
people who insist on it. Or not know, I have met people who insist on it. Which is to me, still
fairly unrealistic. I mean, condoms protect you against many things besides HIV and so maybe
that’s why they’re more interested in protecting themselves from other issues, from other
diseases. Or other infections as we’re saying today.

BK: So, safe sex was something that was being talked about in Edmonton’s gay community at
the time?

GK: I don’t know that it was all that talked about. I would credit my friend who again, in
retrospect, I would probably characterize as a fuck-buddy, that he got me started on safe sex.
And so, I feel like that’s what got me started, and then I just, well, I’m having safe sex with him,
maybe I should have safe sex with everybody, because you know, it’s racing towards us whether





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it’s here or not. Right, like it was clearly coming to Edmonton. I think I started having safe sex
before that first person identified as living with AIDS in Edmonton, but not much before.

BK: Do you remember there being material about safe sex in gay bars, for instance?

GK: I think later, but I don’t think, I think at the time I started having safe sex. I don’t know,
because I knew there was such a thing as safe sex. Maybe that was from pornographic
magazines, because they were published by the gay community and I think fairly forward
thinking. Although, they hopped on that poppers causes AIDS bandwagon. Maybe they were
forward thinking but not really well-informed. But I do remember there being information about
safer sex in those, and again I think I probably knew about it, but hadn’t yet started doing it. And
so—and my friend, my fuckbuddy, we had unsafe sex for the first couple times we had sex. And
then we started having safe sex.

BK: Interesting.

GK: Yeah, it is.

BK: So, a lot of your kind of immediate information was just coming from this partner of yours,
or this friend?

GK: Yeah, and then I think talking amongst people. Sort of about what are you doing, and here’s
what I’m doing, and that kind of thing. Like I say, I feel like I was getting information from
somewhere, but this is some years in the past and I’m not really sure where it was coming from.
But safe sex campaigns started shortly after that. And there started to be more information in the
community about how to have safe sex, and like I say, at the beginning there was a lot of, it
wasn’t completely clear because people weren’t quite sure what to say about oral sex.

BK: Or if it was before the virus was identified, what was even really going on?

GK: Right. I mean, I know there’s documentaries and stuff about like, I’m not sure if safe sex
started before or after the virus was actually identified. Like I say, I’m sure there’s historical
documents that tell people that. But in my mind, safe sex started after the virus, just because we
knew there was a virus and we knew it was coming to Edmonton, or coming to Canada. And I
started having safe sex all because of that one fellow.

BK: Thinking about that earlier information that was in mainstream media and then maybe
getting taken up by the gay community on some level, how was that early information making
you feel at the time?

GK: Well, I think there was some concern. Just ‘cause, initially of course, nobody knew
anything and it was just like, gay men were dying. But also, it was far away, right? It’s those
New York gays. And then the San Francisco gays. So, there was concern but it was also at a
distance. But then you started hearing more and more about how the disease, whatever it was,
was moving and continuing to infect gay men. And then there was research and stuff like that.
So, once there was a virus identified, that made a difference. And then actually people testing.





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So, another friend of mine was tested fairly early in the epidemic – well, I don’t know, in the
Canadian epidemic. So again, I can’t put a date to it, but I’d suggest it was something like ‘84 or
‘85, somewhere in there. I don’t know, when did testing start? I have no idea about that. But he
was tested fairly shortly after testing started, and tested positive. And it was really – his
healthcare provider didn’t really, I think—again, in retrospect, I don’t think his healthcare
provider communicated that information well. He basically just handed him his results and let
him read them himself. Because there was no training at that time for healthcare professionals.
So, it was just a matter of, “Here’s your results.” So, that wasn’t really very good.

BK: Was that a big topic of discussion in the mid-eighties, whether you should get tested or
not?

GK: It was, testing was a big discussion because there was a lot of people who felt that the
confidentiality of testing was—could be flawed. There was a lot of people who felt that if you
were identified as HIV positive that you might be refused healthcare. Period. There was really a
lot of discussion about issues of stigma, many of which have come true. So, it was really –
testing was a big deal. The first time I was tested, I called myself—we’ll use a publicly
accessible name here—I called myself Preston Manning. So anyways—

BK: There were a lot of Bill Vander Zalms in Vancouver too, I think.

GK: So anyways, and I tested, and I tested negative. That was a comfort. But there was still all
of that discussion around—and this is back when the STI clinic was on – right now it’s on
twelfth, you know the BCCDC [BC Centre for Disease Control]? So back then it was on tenth in
what’s now, I think it’s now the bike facility for VGH [Vancouver General Hospital]. Or maybe
it’s the laundry. I don’t know, it’s this building that was like, this ugly old crap building that at
the time the STD clinic was in. And you went in and I do remember—that’s not where I tested
first, it’s just, you know, I tested over the years and plus had regular testing for STIs—and so, I
would go in, and there was this one nurse who was there forever. Her name was Mary. And
Mary was just hilarious because Mary had seen it all. She—nothing surprised her, you could be
very forthright with Mary, and she was supportive, and that nothing surprised her. So, it was
quite interesting going in for testing, just because it was such a dreary building and the staff was,
like I say a lot of them were long- serving staff.

Although again, one of the first times I tested when I was here in Vancouver, I had what I would
consider a bad experience. That a physician came in—who’s name I don’t know—and he had an
intern or resident with him, some nature of student with him, and he came in, and I had already
been tested and spoken with the nurse, not my favourite, Mary. I don’t even know, maybe she
was using a pseudonym! Anyways, this doctor came in and—with this student—and started
asking me about sexual addiction. Asking me all these questions about sexual addiction. And I
was like, I answered the first couple of questions, then it’s like, “Why are you asking me these
questions about sexual addiction?” And he says, “Well, look at the number of partners you
have.” And I said, “Well, first off, my understanding of addiction is that when whatever you’re
addicted to starts interfering with your life and you can’t do without it, and I would not
characterize my sexual behaviour in that manner.” And then all of a sudden, he had to go and
take a telephone call, and the poor student was left with me, clearly a disgruntled consumer. And





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so, he asked I think maybe one more question and then ran away. It was just like, how many gay
men have you talked to? I’m kind of in the middle for number of partners, and there’s people
with lots more and there’s people with lots fewer. So anyways, it was just one of those things
that I think, he thought he would show how to have a discussion with a client, and perhaps
picked the wrong client. Anyways, stuff like that happened.

BK: Some stigmatizing experiences with healthcare providers.

GK: I actually don’t remember, I must’ve had my first test in Edmonton, but I don’t recall
whether it was with my family physician or like, the STI clinic there. I suspect that it would’ve
been with the STI clinic, because I—again, because of all the controversy about testing, I didn’t
really want it in my permanent record. So, this was a way to go and get it done and get an answer
without having it entered into my health record.

BK: That makes sense. And so, as we kind of come to the mid-eighties and late-eighties, the
epidemic is starting to become a little bit more visible in Edmonton, I suppose?

GK: Yeah. And again, aside from that one person who came out, there weren’t a lot of people
who made public comment, but there were definitely people, including amongst my friends, who
had tested positive. And it’s hard to say, like, I’m sure it impacted their mental health, but there
weren’t a lot of supports available, aside from your standard mental health supports, and this was
a fairly new thing. I don’t feel like my friends got really good mental health supports, they got
good social supports, because we had a fairly tight-knit group of friends. But I don’t feel like
they got good professional supports.

BK: And there weren’t like, AIDS service organizations?

GK: They were starting up. So, there were groups for people who tested positive, but there again
I feel like there’s barriers there, because you have to more or less publicly identify as positive to
go to one of those groups. And then you have to go to the building and enter the building, and all
that. Which was bad enough going to the STI clinics. So, like I say, I don’t feel like my friends
had really good mental health supports.

BK: And was there a lot of—I guess what you’re speaking to is the existence of a lot of stigma
back then, or fear around HIV positive people. What did that look like?

GK: Again, it’s hard for me to assess, because pretty much from the time I started having safe
sex, it was a matter of I had safe sex with everyone, and so because I was having safe sex and at
the very least it was rumoured to be protective, although as it turns out it probably was pretty
protective. Just personally speaking, I didn’t fear infection very much. I mean, there’s always a
nagging doubt, right, ‘cause it was early days. And it’s like, yeah, you could get infected. But it’s
kind of like any issue – heart disease or diabetes – you eat a healthy diet and you’re active,
you’re doing what you can do to protect yourself against heart disease. So, then you can’t do any
more. So, I was having safe sex, and so I was doing what I could do to protect myself. So, there
wasn’t anything more that I could do to protect myself, aside from abstinence, which I didn’t feel
was an option. And so—but I would agree that there was fear, more at the beginning because





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there was no idea where this came from, where this happened. And then later on, when it was
identified that there was a communicable virus, then people—but there was a lot of stupid, too.
Because it’s like, “Well, are you having safe sex?” “Well, no.” “Well, then you’re leaving
yourself open to infection.” And then, you know, a whole discussion of the eroticism of safe sex
and stuff like that. And it’s just sort of that safe sex wasn’t erotic enough, and so we have
unprotected sex because that’s better sex, or whatever. And it’s kind of like, “Well then, you’re
leaving yourself open to infection.” And so, I realize that a lot goes into the dynamics of
choosing to have safe sex each time. And so—but at the time, it really felt like, okay, we know
how to protect ourselves, so let’s protect ourselves. And it’s still sex, it’s not all that bad.

BK: Yeah, I think it was really difficult for a lot of people to navigate that ideal of safe sex.

GK: It’s hard for me to assess, because I was able. But you know, I had kind loving parents, I
had friends, I’m well-educated, I’m white. There’s all these things that give me privilege that
allowed me to be clear that this is how I was having sex, and so you know, lots of people don’t
have those things and that makes it more challenging.

BK: Do you remember anything about how the mainstream, like outside of the gay community,
what the response looked like to the emerging epidemic?

GK: Not a lot, because I work in a profession that’s predominantly female, I did have some
discussion with straight women and encouraged them to have safe sex, although I’m not sure that
all of them felt that that was a need. Although again, I mean all you have to do is go to the baths
to know how many married men are having sex with men. And it’s kind of like, you really ought
to have safe sex, whether you think so or not. I didn’t then, and don’t really now, have a lot of
heterosexual male friends, so I can’t asses how heterosexual men felt about it, right? Yeah, I
really have no idea. And the heterosexual male friends that I have now are in monogamous
relationships. So, I really still have no idea.

BK: But based on your limited view, was there a sense of increased homophobia or anything
that was being experienced at the time?

GK: I guess it would be hard to assess whether it was increased or not. There was homophobia.
And this was just another reason, because you know, the fags are spreading AIDS, right? And so,
you shouldn’t tough fags or do anything with fags because you might get AIDS. Although there
might have been some protective benefit because people did not beat up gay men to a point of
drawing blood, because that would put you at a risk for AIDS. So that’s positive.

BK: I guess.

GK: But no, I feel like that was a thing. And then there was, you know, all kinds of foolishness
that, I don’t know. Again, you’d have to go to documents to find out when universal precautions
became a thing, but then there was stuff like police coming to Pride marches and wearing gloves,
and stuff like that and I can remember things on television about doctors in these like, really
serious protective suits and face shields and stuff like that. And I mean, maybe you need that if
you’re a physician who’s sawing up bones and things like that, and gets a lot of spray. But if





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you’re just like—I don’t know, it struck me as overkill. And I did have people – like I had a
friend—who shall remain nameless—who had some plastic surgery done, and in order to get his
plastic surgery, he had to test like four times for HIV. So, he had to test like six months out, and
three months out, and one month out, and then right before his surgery. And it’s kind of like,
okay that’s just stupid, and we talk about cost to the healthcare system? It’s like that’s a stupid
cost. So anyways, but that stuff happened. Right?

BK: And they should be using universal precautions anyway.

GK: Yeah, I’m pretty sure by that point, universal precautions were in place. Anyways, it’s just
a plastic surgeon being stupid. But my friend wanted the surgery and he wanted that surgeon to
do it.

BK: Thinking of those straight female friends of yours, I guess there was still probably a
conception that this was a gay disease at the time.

GK: Yes, I’d say so. I mean, I think that even today remains true. There’s—or maybe it’s like
gays and Africans, or something. It’s really like, I still feel like that’s a pretty common
misconception. Although, I’m also wary of fully characterizing it as a misconception, because
the statistics are that most infections are amongst gay men. And yes, people using needle drugs
get infected, and yes people get infected through heterosexual sex. But there are this many [a
lot], as opposed to this many [a little]. So, it’s really—while I’m wary of characterizing it as a
gay disease, I also feel like in some ways we need to because it is mostly gay men who are being
impacted. Whether it’s over the long-term of the disease, or whether it’s about prevention efforts,
and targeting young gay men and things like that, it’s like because that’s where the infections
are. And so, is it or isn’t it a gay disease? No, it’s not, but it does predominantly impact gay men.
But I mean it’s – everybody gets infected, you can find any kind of person you like and they’ve
been infected.

BK: It’s true. Any recollection of how the government was responding back then?

GK: I feel senior health officials and bureaucrats were laggards and did not do things that
would’ve prevented the expansion of the epidemic. It’s often stated that the right people were
dying, and I think that that’s true. It’s like it was poor people, it was gay men, and governments
did not take action in Alberta or here in British Columbia. I still, for example, would not consider
buying a vehicle from a Dueck dealership, because of Peter Dueck’s comments on the HIV
epidemic way back when, which were basically that we should take all those people and put
them on an island somewhere. So, it’s like, yeah, governments have a lot of blame attached to
them for their inaction. And then in the United States, certainly to a lesser degree here, the only
reason that we got treatments was because of ACT UP and ACT UP’s very confrontational
actions around medications.

BK: Was that happening in Alberta, in Edmonton, activism of any ilk?

GK: Not as much. I would say that it was happening in the states and so, Health Can—you
know, so things were approved in the States, and Health Canada was slower to approve. Like, I





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really think that the turning point was when we had the International AIDS Conference here, and
which I think was in 1996. And that’s when people were really starting to talk about the cocktail,
or highly active antiretroviral therapy, right? That’s when you really started hearing about it. And
I actually had a billet in my home at that time, and he was the first person I ever met who was on
HAART. And he had been on it as one of the experimental subjects. He was from Chicago. And
so that’s really when it really took off. Prior to that everybody was on, what’s it called these
days— Zidovudine? Everybody was on AZT, or in the States A-zee-T. And yeah, most of my
friends were on AZT. There were some other things that they probably have nicer names now,
but I remember DDI was one of them. So, there was some combinations prior to the cocktail, but
it was really after that 1996 conference here that the cocktail just all the sudden became common
place. And that’s when you saw what I’m sure other people have described, where people at
death’s door went on the cocktail, got better, led healthy active lives, and it was this night and
day thing, that it’s like all these people. Which again, was wonderful, but also kind of angry
making because if things had been approved a bit faster then some of my friends would be alive.
And it was very troubling. There was a lot of bad care, including from – I had one friend who
had quite—what I felt was to be quite bad care from a gay physician. Yeah. It was just, I don’t
know what it was all about, but he switched physicians and he got much better care.

BK: And that was here in Vancouver?

GK: No, that was in Edmonton. Part of it—not all of it—but part of it was that physician’s
admitting privileges and the hospital that he was admitting to was a bad hospital because it was
part of the, I don’t even know what to call it now, but you no doubt have heard that there was
parallel to the Indian residential schools. There were hospitals that were like, Indian residential
hospitals. This was one of those hospitals in Edmonton. And it was not a good hospital. But
that’s where that particular physician had admitting privileges. And again, once my friend
changed physicians, he was admitted to the university hospital, and things, care was significantly
better.

BK: And within the gay community, did some of this stigma manifest within that community as
well?

GK: Yeah, I think so. Again, that would be just like, rumour doing its evil work, right? People
would be rumoured to be positive, or may have publicly admitted that they were positive. And
then there would—it’s like, then there were exclusions. People really didn’t admit to positivity
for the most part, until usually they were quite significantly ill. The thing was, sometimes people
got really ill really fast. But there was—it’s interesting too, I always think back to a fellow that I
knew, an acquaintance, who was fairly open about being positive, and one time I met him out of
the club and I went to embrace him and kiss him, like on the cheek or whatever. And he actually
pulled back. And it was more about—in later discussion with him—it was more about, he was
concerned about people transmitting illnesses to him, you know, whether it was a cold or
whatever, but he said the reason that that happened was pretty much everybody knew that he was
positive and everyone wanted to show him that they weren’t afraid to touch him, and they
weren’t afraid to kiss him. And it was like, “People are always – like, they have their hands all
over me.” And it was like, “Okay, I get it. You’re not afraid of me, and I don’t want to get sick,





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so stop hugging me and kissing me.” And it was a grounding in reality for me. So anyways, the
coin has two sides.

BK: That’s a really interesting experience. I guess part of what I’m wondering is, you would
have sex with guys that were negative and guys that were positive. I guess I’m still a bit—

GK: Well, I guess I would characterize it more that—without wishing to shame myself—I
would just have sex with anybody.

BK: Sure, but there were—

GK: --but it’s like, that’s the point, if you’re having safe sex, then you can have sex with
anybody. And that whole discussion of “are you positive or negative” is way in the background
because people may or may not even know, because there was always issues about testing, and
may well still be issues about testing. I mean, that’s what HIM [Health Initiative for Men] tell us,
is that there’s a ton of people out there—well maybe not a ton—but there are people out there
who aren’t aware of their own status. And so, it’s really a matter of everybody needs to have safe
sex with everybody, and then maybe later on once you’ve discussed monogamy. This was an
interesting question that I discussed with straight women is just – because I did know straight
women who are HIV educators. And this discussion of once you look at statistics, a lot of people
aren’t monogamous, even though they say they’re monogamous. And so, like maybe you should
truly everybody should be having safe sex all the time, but how do you discuss that with your
husband of twenty years without saying, I think you’re stepping out. Right? Particularly in that
environment where AIDS was a gay disease, and now straight women are having to have these
discussions with their husbands and what does that mean, and does it mean that you suspect your
husband of having sex with men? So, there’s just a whole bunch of stuff there. But for me, it
always came back to it doesn’t matter whether somebody’s positive or negative, because we’re
going to have safe sex no matter what. But I don’t know if I’m exceptional in that, or I’m just
vocal about it.

BK: Yeah, I guess that’s what I’m wondering too, like how normal was that for people to be,
because I think there probably was—there probably were some folks who were like, HIV
positive people, I’m definitely not having sex with them of any kind, you know?

GK: Yeah, absolutely – oh, absolutely that went on. And still does. So, it’s like, is it more or less
commonplace then as now? It would be hard to assess, right? I mean, I have to admit that it
annoys me when I’m in a sexual environment like the baths or something like that and people
ask me if I’m positive. And usually, because I want to have sex with them, I’ll say no, because
I’m currently negative. And yet, it annoys me because it’s like, it doesn’t matter, we’re still
going to have safe sex, because you may or may not know your status, although your question
leads me to believe that you’re negative. Although that could be untrue as well. Like, maybe
they’re asking because they’re positive. And you know, because people do serosort, right,
without question. Anyways, it seems unnecessary to me.

BK: So, it sounds like also as the eighties progressed, the epidemic was starting to manifest
within your own closer community, within your friend group.





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GK: Yes, absolutely. So, I had – let’s see. I had a friend who moved from Edmonton to
Vancouver, probably about ‘83 or so, and he tested here for the first time, and tested positive.
And so, he’s probably the first friend that I had who tested positive, although other friends tested
positive as time went by. Before I left Edmonton, I had a friend who became quite ill. And again,
very suddenly he became really sick, really fast, had a recovery and had time to like make
arrangements and deal with family and all of that stuff, and then passed away. And that was in
‘89. So, he knew he was positive probably for—from about say, ‘85-ish. I can’t say for sure, but
yeah, he knew and was forthright with us. I’m not sure how forthright he was with everyone. But
anyways, then like I said, he got sick quite quickly, and passed within the year. And he died just
before I left Edmonton and came here to finish my education.

BK: And so, you were kind of stepping into some types of caregiving roles at the time, or
informal?

GK: Well, I’d say, yeah, I had—I was never a formal caregiver in that I was sort of the main
caregiver for someone. But for that friend, I would say that you know, I was a supportive
caregiver and visited him, and brought him stuff and things like that and sometimes supported
his partner by doing caregiving while the partner went out, and like had some respite.

BK: Yeah.

GK: And then I came here, and when I came here, all my friends who were positive were well,
and that was 1989 to ‘90, and I was living in New Westminster. And then I moved around the
province for work, so I was in Kamloops and I was in Terrace. And so, I’d visit them here. When
was it? Let’s see, it would’ve been shortly after I moved to Terrace so that’s—I don’t know, you
can check what I wrote down—I think that would be 1991, August ’91. So, probably say in
September of ‘91, or somewhere around there, one of my friends who lived here became quite ill
and was admitted to St. Paul’s. And I did actually get to see him while he was admitted, but then
had to return back to Terrace for work. And then he passed, and so I remember calling into his
celebration of life party and talking to a bunch of people and stuff like that. So that would’ve
been like say September, October, somewhere in around there, in 1991. And then when I moved
here in 1994, so I moved here I think April ‘94, and moved into the West End like a good gay
boy. And my—another friend who had been long-term positive, just after I moved here, he
started dealing with cancer. I think it was probably some kind of metastases from the Kaposi
sarcoma. And you know, quite frankly, I’m not sure what kind of cancer it was. And then
another mutual friend moved in with him and provided, like, twenty-four-hour care. And he
stopped treatment for his cancer and then again, sickened quite quickly and passed away. So that
was very shortly after I moved here. It must’ve probably been about—oh, that’s right it was – he
died May 31st in 1994 because me and my other friends embittered as we are, were joking that
he didn’t want to pay June’s rent. And so, that’s how giving we all were. [chuckles] So anyways,
he passed.

And then actually the death that really impacted me was someone I knew a lot more casually, is
again my friend who died of cancer, or you know died of HIV-related cancer, or however you
want to frame it. He passed, and this other fellow was also quite supportive in dropping by and





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visiting and bringing groceries, and stuff like that. And he and I had known each other in
Edmonton, and then he’d moved here and then I moved here, and quite a short time after my
friend with cancer died, he died, like two weeks later. And again, was well, and then got really
sick and died right away. And that really affected me, I think because you know, the friend who
died, the friend with cancer, he was a long-term good friend. Whereas this person was more of an
acquaintance, but I guess I had been looking to him as someone that would be providing me with
support on the death of my long-term friend. And then he died really unexpectedly. And it was
kind of like, well, now I’m kind of lost. And so yeah, it was interesting just that his death didn’t
impact me as—or that his death impacted me more than my long-term friend’s death. Part of it, I
suppose, was that my long-term friend’s death was slow, right? We knew it was coming, so his
parents were actually here when he died, it was like if such a thing exists, it was a good death.
But then this other acquaintance, it just really took me aback. So, like I say, it’s quite interesting,
because although he wasn’t that close a friend, I had much closer friends die, so my friend in
Edmonton, and then the one who passed while I was up north, and then my friend with cancer
who died, they were all much longer-term friends and much closer to me. And yet their deaths
didn’t seem to impact me as hard.

BK: Yeah, that’s a lot of death in a very short amount of time.

GK: Yeah, within about five years, so I mean, I often explain to people—now—because of
course, now I’ve reached an age where people are dying again, not from HIV, but from all the
things people usually die of, so they’re getting heart disease, and they’re getting cancer, and
they’re getting, you know, all kinds of things that people in their fifties and sixties and seventies
get and die from. And I think some of my acquaintances are sometimes surprised that I don’t
show a lot of emotion around death, or that I treat death somewhat informally. And so, you have
to explain to people, it’s like, when I was in my twenties, all my friends died and I got a lot better
at death. And I did, even at that time, I thought about that, that like we treat death the same way
as all these eighty-year-olds where it’s like, oh blah-blah-blah, and so-and-so died. And you’re
like, oh yeah, so-and-so died, that’s too bad. And you know, it’s like, because when you’re
eighty and you’re ninety, you’re used to people dying. And you’re used to, you know, an
acquaintance that you haven’t seen in awhile got some dreaded disease and died, and it’s like,
oh, another one. And that’s what AIDS was like at the peak, because people were dying and they
were often acquaintances and stuff. And you’ve probably seen old issues of Angles that had the
death announcements and stuff like that, and I mean really, that was—you did scan that because
you never knew who was going to have died and whether, you know, there was lots of people in
there. Frequently there were people you knew, and it got to be that kind of situation where you’re
like, oh, so-and-so died. Oh, that’s too bad. You know, it’s like, that’s someone I knew and they
died and it wasn’t that big a surprise, and it was part of life. And you know, there were political
circumstances that were annoying about those deaths—or more than annoying, they’re angry-
making about those deaths—but you reached a point where it was so common that you were
inured to it. Which is – you know, I talk about being very jaded and embittered, perhaps that’s
why.

BK: Well, I guess it became very normal, but at the same time, these are people in their twenties
and thirties, and in that sense it’s not normal.






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GK: That’s right, that’s not normal, and yeah, it still kind of annoys me. Governments are better
now, but then, you know, I see the conservative wave I see that’s happening, looks like
Newfoundland delivered themselves from that, so touch wood. But you know, you see stuff like
that happening and you think, like, this could happen again. It’s—yeah, I mean that’s why I’m
such a staunch left-winger, is because of that, and it’s because of conservative governments and
Brian Mulroney. I should’ve poisoned him when I had the chance. I lived in Saskatoon one
summer, and worked at the Bessborough Hotel, and that was actually the summer where the
premiers’ meeting was in Saskatoon, so Brian Mulroney and all the premiers were at the hotel I
was cooking at. And I made—like really—a thousand devilled eggs for that party, and I thought I
should like poison some of these. Look at that! Admitting planning someone’s death.

BK: Well, you stopped short of that.

GK: Well, it’s true, I didn’t actually poison any of them.

BK: But I can understand the appeal, for sure.

GK: Yes, it’s very anger-making. Yeah, there was a thing, it was kind of amusing to me. So, in
1990, the whatever they were back then, I think it was called Celebration Ninety, it was the Gay
Games, right? The Gay Games—sorry, I’m tangled up in my cord here—first off, once again,
there’s this source of irritation because they had to be the Gay Games, they couldn’t be the gay
Olympics because the Olympics took the gay Olympics to court and made them stop saying that.
And it’s just like, fuck you, Olympics. Although, that’s generally my attitude no matter what
because of all the cesspool that is international sport, whether it’s soccer or the Olympics or
whatever. It’s sort of like fill up our pockets and then we’ll let you have the Olympics and go
into debt for us. But perhaps that’s an over-simplification of the political context of sport. But
anyways, so it was the Gay Games, and they were here in 1990, and I was just finishing up my
education, and so a number of people inquired, because I mean I am gay. Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay
– gayer than a giant barrel of pink monkeys lip-syncing to Rufus Wainwright singing Judy
Garland. It’s like, you’d have to be headless, right? And so, people would come up and they’d
ask me, “So, are you doing anything for Celebration Ninety?” It was just this really discrete way
of asking, are you a big old queer? So, there was actually quite a bit of discussion at that time.

And then there were all these things that happened, so Brian Mulroney had at one point,
somebody had said something about the New Democrats forming a government, and Brian
Mulroney made a joke and said—or what he felt was a joke—and said, “Yeah, they’d have Sven
Robinson as minister of defence,” intimating that a gay man would not be qualified for such a
position. And anyways, there was a lot of great stuff, so we had BC Place, and you know the
incoming procession was at BC Place and they had an HIV positive runner who had run there
from like the last place, which I think was San Francisco - so far in the distant past that I don’t
recall. But anyways, he had run there and so he went—he came in and he ran around the stadium
and then all the athletes came in and then there were speeches and stuff. And Sven actually got
up and was speaking and made some comment, somebody said, well, you guys should be
forming government, or you guys should—oh, that’s it, they said, “Oh, you should be prime
minister!” And he said, “”No, minister of defence would be fine.” It was like, good for you. But
yeah, that again was maybe a bit of a turning point, just because people could suddenly talk





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about queers, and first off, you didn’t have to use that nasty gay word, you could talk about
Celebration Ninety. And there was just a lot more openness.

I mean there was still all kinds of bullshit because they had the police games here that same year
and there was all kinds of coverage in the mainstream media about the police games, and there
was almost no coverage about Celebration Ninety. Even though it was something like a ten-times
larger event and brought a lot more money to Vancouver, it was like, no, don’t want to talk about
those queers. Not on T.V. It was a lovely and dynamic time. When I think about sort of what
Pride is these days, with corporate sponsors and big extravaganzas and big parties, stuff like that,
that I feel like 1990 was the first year that all of that kind of stuff happened. Because there were,
I mean there were drug companies, HIV drug companies, who were providing sponsorships and
stuff, and there were big parties, and people were out. And you know, we rented BC Place and
had a procession of athletes from all over the world and stuff like that, and people realized, wow,
there’s a lot of gay people. And you know, so it was a noteworthy event because of the sort of
long-term influence, but it was the first time that there was that kind of openness. Or it felt like,
you know, there were pride marches and stuff long before that, but it was such a big event.

BK: Yeah and this is completely conjecture but it seemed to be a bit of a turning point
politically in B.C. too, because you know, the following year the Social Credit Party gets
completely wiped off the political landscape here in B.C.

GK: Well, I think that was just because Vander Zalm was such slime, right? People got really
angry because of the dealings around the Expo Lands and Faye Leung and bags of cash, and like,
people were destroyed, and so poor old Rita Johnson, the first prime—the first female premier in
Canada, and she, just like you say, got wiped off the map. And it’s like, I wasn’t exactly
saddened. In fact, I was in Victoria the night of the election because I had—I was living in
Terrace by that time—but I had to go to Victoria for a meeting or whatever. And so, there was all
kinds of talk and all kinds of rumour about, you know, people going in and shredding file boxes
full of papers and stuff like that. It’s hard to say if that’s actually true, but it was like, yeah, there
was a lot of kerfuffle when the NDP won.

BK: It seems like that would be on-brand for the Vander Zalm government. Who knows?

GK: Who knows. It’s not for me to speculate.

BK: And how were you coping with all that loss back then? Were there supports in place for
folks who were surviving?

GK: Maybe yes, maybe no, I don’t know. I was busy, right, because I was just finishing my
education. So, I did my university, but in my profession, you need to do a one-year internship
after your education. So, I came to B.C. to do my internship, so that’s a very busy time. And then
I moved to Kamloops, because I got a job in Kamloops. And that was a like a one-year position
and then I moved to Terrace and got—oh, and I got laid off from my first job in the very first
round of health care cutbacks in 1990. Well, it was an important lesson. But then got another job.
I actually think there was probably some subtle arm twisting that happened in back rooms in
Kamloops that got me another job. And so, I was in that job for the rest of the time I was in





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Kamloops, and because of having that job, got a permanent job starting in Terrace. Which was,
back then, it was all Ministry of Health. So, all of the health units all across the province were all
run through the Ministry of Health. And it was not that long afterwards that health got
regionalized, first to twenty regions, and then to five regions. So, it was interesting. Yeah, when I
moved south, they had just regionalized, so that was 1994, they had just regionalized to twenty
regions. And then at some point in there the government changed, and they decided that they
were going to go with the five health authorities, or six, because they did—I feel like the
provincial was created maybe slightly after the rest of them. There were the five geographic
health authorities, and then the provincial was like a few weeks later. But I’m not sure, I might
be misremembering. But anyways, all of that happened.

So long story short, I was really busy, so I was up in Terrace and I was working at my job, and
that job entailed a lot of travel. So, I was in the Skeena Health Unit, it goes from Haida Gwai’i
halfway to Prince George out of Houston, and then from Kitimat north to the border. So, it was
really a significant geographic area, and I served that whole area. And so, I did a lot of travelling
while I was in that position. So, like I say, when I first moved up there, one of my friends passed,
but I wasn’t sort of directly involved in his passing because he died while I was up there. And
then when I came down south, my other friend passed fairly shortly after I arrived. And again,
just started a new job, quite busy, and then, yeah, it was quite a kerfuffle because my friend
passed, and then shortly after that, my co-worker was literally hit by a truck. Just right out here at
Davie and Burrard, she was crossing the street and somebody ran a red light and hit her and
several other people with a truck, driving a truck. And so, I was super busy at work because—so
anyways, it was just like I was really busy, my friend had died, and all a sudden my co-worker is
off sick and recovering from being struck by a truck, and it was just a really busy time. So, there
was no time to fret about things.

And we did have quite a lovely service for my friend – I don’t know if I’d even call it a service.
We had a memorial gathering and then we spread his ashes in English Bay. Although I
remember a friend - so, we were on the boat of another friend, and he was agitated by my
friend’s death, and then when we were spreading the ashes, a wind came up so he got ashes all
over his boat, and he was quite annoyed with me for playing with the radio, while I was on—
anyways, it was like… the things that stick in your memory. Anyways, I remember that, and I
remember him washing his boat as soon as we got back to land, which, you can hardly blame
him. It’s like, ugh, a friend’s ashes are all over your boat. I do actually remember because of that
wind, I got some of my friend in my mouth. Because you know, you throw ashes, and no one
gives you instructions on how to distribute ashes. And so, I threw them, and a gust of wind came
up and like— [coughing]—so anyways, it’s like, so there’s always a little part of my friend
inside of me. But yeah, I think perhaps with my friend because he had been quite sick for quite a
while, that death came as a relief for our circle of friends who were providing care. And yeah,
that does make a difference, and again, it puts you in this unique position because sometimes in
the years since, when I’ve had acquaintances or a friend who’ve had perhaps a sick parent pass
or something like that, and I’ve talked to them and just made the comment that like, so you
know, was this a good thing, was it a relief? And they’re like, “Wow, nobody ever thought of it
that way and yes it was.” And it’s surprising again that life teaches you a lot of lessons, and you
become a surprising ally because you’ve lived through all of these situations. I mean, I really
noticed it at my mother’s death – my mother was quite demented when she died, and had been





“HIV in My Day,” Gerry Kasten (May 17, 2019)

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demented for some years. And her death hit one of my brothers much harder than it hit me,
because I think, you know, I’d lived through all that death, and was somewhat relieved that my
mother had passed. But my other brother hadn’t lived through all that death, and he was really
quite broken up.

BK: Any thoughts about how the gay community here in Vancouver was responding, like at that
community level, to HIV?

GK: I feel like it was quite a positive response. Part of it was I feel like there was leadership
from Angles, and whatever it was then, I guess it was just Xtra! then. That there was leadership,
so it was in the open because of all the obituaries in Angles, and by the time I moved here, there
were services and funding had built up, and so there were a lot of services. And they didn’t meet
everyone’s needs, and certainly even today they are quite gay-men focused, which is probably a
good thing because gay men are the most impacted, but it’s tough for people who aren’t gay
men. So, I have no idea what services are available for positive women, and particularly for
positive straight men. It’s—there’s probably—I don’t know, I just the other day saw that there’s
a group for positive straight men. But it’s kind of like, there are good services for the gays, but
for everyone else it’s perhaps a bit iffier. But I do feel, like even when I came back in ’94, that it
was—services were pretty good here. Probably better here than when I left Edmonton. So, I left
Edmonton in ’89, so I don’t know what happened from ‘89 to ‘94 in Edmonton. I mean, I feel
like Edmonton has good services now. The friends I have that remain in Edmonton, it seems like
they’re knowledgeable about the array of services that are out there. Although Edmonton does
seem to be having its troubles, as you may know they cancelled their Pride celebration this year,
and they blamed it on the political climate, which who knows? Certainly, they have a much more
conservative political climate. Although not really in Edmonton, like when you saw the election,
it’s like a big blue province with a little orange dot that’s all around Edmonton. All of the
opposition, all of the NDP elected were all elected in Edmonton.

BK: Wouldn’t that just make a Pride parade more necessary, the political climate?

GK: That’s my view as well, but I’m not on that board and don’t have their insights.

BK: True. And what about in Kamloops or Terrace, was HIV something that was talked about
in those smaller communities at the time?

GK: I think, again, amongst the gays, yes. Amongst anyone else? Because I’m working in
health, there was some discussion, but in the general community, I’d say no. There were
gatherings of gays in Kamloops at that time, although I don’t recall any, like, dances or anything
like that. I do remember driving to Kelowna for dances. I only lived there for a year, but the gays
weren’t very organized in Kamloops and there was certainly nothing available, aside from what
was available through the general health system. So yes, there were mental health supports, yes,
there were HIV supports, but only what was available through the health system, which I’d say
was perhaps not only minimal but also somewhat discriminatory. Because then I was there from
1990 to 1991, and so it’s—it was still pretty—people in the health care system—health
practitioners, didn’t have a good grip on what services were or should be, or that kind of thing. In
Terrace, no. In Terrace, there was just like nothing gay, there was word of mouth getting to know





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each other. And it was easy to have sex, because you could have sex with men that were married
to women. There was plenty of that available. But no romance, right? Nothing available for –
yeah, that’s really my—I had a wonderful time living in Terrace except no romantic
opportunities. So yeah, Terrace is a great place to live, it’s got—and who knows, that was years
and years ago, so maybe it’s better now.

BK: Yeah, just a little bit curious because we’ve obviously heard less about Kamloops and
Terrace than we have about Vancouver in the course of doing this project.

GK: Yeah, there I don’t feel like – again, outside of the regular healthcare system, there was
nothing targeted specifically to gay men as services for HIV or for services period. Right? Like I
think it would be interesting, like I really doubt there’s anything like HIM even now in
Kamloops, and certainly not in Terrace. Although, the healthcare system has grown and realized
that it needs to provide services for LGBTQ people. And so, you know, there’s some efforts in
that arena.

BK: But nothing like an HIV organization in those places other than that?

GK: Well, again if there is, it’d be outreach, right? Even in Abbotsford. Like HIM is in
Abbotsford, but it’s really as an outreach branch.

BK: Yes, technically in Abbotsford.

GK: Yeah, I don’t know. Like do they just go into an office and provide service and then—so I
have no idea, I haven’t visited their services in Abbotsford.

[End 19-05-17-GK]
[Start 19-05-17-GK2]

BK: So, before that little pause, I was just about to ask how the epidemic kind of changed the
gay community here in Vancouver?

GK: Well, I think – I mean, I don’t totally know, I think likely the same way it changed
everywhere is that people realized that silence equals death. They realized they could not be
silent. And so they came out. And they talked, and a lot of people did a lot of fantastic stuff,
right. And it really comes down to—I mean, it’s very interesting for me because as someone who
was never “in,” right, like I started having sex really early, I came “out” quite young, I’ve now
been out for like two generations, and you know, I was never “in.” And so—but there was this
whole group of people who could remain in the closet. You know, people talk a lot about
whether it’s their gender identity or their race or whatever and people talk about passing. And I
could never pass, because I was always gay acting. And so, where was I going with this? It
just—the community—oh, I know what I was going to talk about. So, years and years ago,
probably before HIV really reared its cursed head, there was a saying amongst gays that I wish
everyone who was gay had like a blue dot on their forehead, so that people couldn’t hide. And
you know, it would—the dots, depending on how gay you were, it—so like people who only had
occasionally had same-sex sex, you know, theirs would be really, really light blue, and then





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people like me who are like the gold-star gays and they’d have a dark blue dot. And anyways,
and then that happened. So, be careful what you wish for, because AIDS came along, and that
felt exactly like that. There were all these people and they ended up having to come out because
they were infected with HIV. And to a large degree that meant they were gay. And so, there were
all of these deaths, and all of these people got their blue dots, and that wish came true. And yet,
because of the activist community and its actions and the successes of their actions, I feel like the
community was changed, and in many ways that was the biggest step.

[background noises] My word. I’m hearing laughter.

BK: I’m going to guess that every thing’s okay.

GK: Me too. [Laughs] So anyways, I feel like that’s what changed in the community, was
people became less afraid of activism, less afraid of coming out. Because they had to come out,
in part maybe because they were living with HIV, but maybe also because there were productive
outcomes to coming out. And so, that—it certainly wasn’t the start of like, gay liberation, but it
was an advancement. And I realize there are still issues and complexities to that, because white
gay men came out of it really well. People of colour maybe not so well, people living in poverty
probably even less, and so that kind of thing. It’s like, we still have a lot of issues in the
community, but advances have been made, although those advances have mostly benefited white
cis-males. So, we need to keep working on that. I find the whole discussion around police in
Pride and uniforms, and I find that discussion upsetting because there does—a lot of the
discussion seems to arise from white privilege. And it’s like, what’s the big deal here? And it’s
like, well, the big deal is stuff that doesn’t happen to you, because you’re a white cis-male. And
it’s like, but it happens to lots of people and they have a right to complain about it. So, you
know, some things have progressed, other things haven’t.

BK: Yeah, so there’s this subset of the community that’s obtained a little bit more mainstream
acceptance, and then of course there’s all these other communities within that community that
have not.

GK: Right.

BK: That includes people probably that are having a lot of sex still and going to bathhouses.

GK: Probably.

BK: I will not go on, but I find it very interesting myself as well, the scope of that acceptance.

GK: Yes. Because I mean, I did, when I was in university to get a master’s degree, I did a queer
studies course, because it, you know, given that my master’s research was on gay men, it’s
probably a good idea to take a queer studies course. And the instructor was very good and talked
exactly that, that there’s this circle that’s the white cis-men who are in monogamous
relationships or maybe married. And then there’s the white cis-men who are out there and they’re
being slut-shamed, and then there’s the people of colour and then there’s like—so there’s all
these gradations. And some of those inner walls are breaking down, but the outer walls are still





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just as high, and just as challenging. And yeah, so the largest of that might be poverty, I don’t
know. I don’t know because I’m a cis-male, and a lot of times I don’t know stuff.

BK: And what about your perspective on HIV – how has that changed over time?
GK: Well, of course it’s changed the way it’s changed for everyone, in that HIV is now a
chronic, manageable illness. There are some intriguing aspects to that. So, that’s a really good
thing, don’t get me wrong, it’s great that HIV is now a chronic disease that’s manageable. I have
some issues with PrEP, because I feel like people feel PrEP is more protective than it is, not so
much around HIV, but because PrEP has to some degree liberated some aspects of sexuality,
we’ve seen other sexually-related infections rise, and PrEP isn’t protecting against those,
whereas safe sex did protect against them. To some degree, because you know, people still got
oral infections and stuff like that. But so there’s sort of that issue, and then PrEP is just a bit of a
chip on my shoulder because it’s like here’s this drug and yeah it’s gonna do these things for
you, but it’s a drug and it comes with side-effects like all drugs do. And I feel like that’s
downplayed, because people are out there, like for people who are living with HIV, HAART
therapy is amazing, and it’s keeping their HIV as a chronic manageable disease. But to people,
healthy people, on a significant drug that has a lot of side-effects, concerns me, because there are
side-effects. And when people are consistent with safe sex, they’re protected regardless of
whether or not they’re on PrEP. So, that’s why I have kind of an issue around PrEP. PEP is a
whole different story, it seems like a good idea. Although again, seems a little toxic sometimes.
I’ve known a couple of people who have had to use PEP, and it’s been hard for them. Because
they’re toxic drugs.

BK: That one’s a much heavier dosage that you’re drawing on, compared to PrEP. It’s tough on
most folks, I think.

GK: So, what was your question again?

BK: Just around how your perspective on HIV has changed.

GK: So, there are all those issues, and like, so there’s positive and negative all mixed up there.
My personal perspective hasn’t changed that much, because I still have safe sex, and I’ll keep
having it. And you know, it’s great that it’s a chronic manageable disease, so in the unlikely
event that I do become infected, I know that I’ll still have roughly the same life expectancy,
because you know, racing towards the end of life. So it’s like, it wouldn’t have a big impact on—
and it also wouldn’t have a big impact on my life, right? Because back in the day, when people
talked about, you know, if I should get infected. For me, it was always like, I’m not sure what I’d
change. Because I eat healthy food, and I’m active, and I feel pretty good about myself and I do
some spiritual development. Like I do—I’m like healthy liver, I have a healthy lifestyle. So,
what exactly would I change if I got infected? Because I’m still having safe sex, so that’s not
going to change. So, it’s like what is it that would really change for me. And it’s the same thing,
whether it was HIV or if I got cancer, or if I got heart disease or diabetes, I don’t know that I’d
be changing my life a lot. There would probably be different medications that would be built into
my life, but you know, because right now, aspirin’s about the only thing that I take. So, it’s like
things wouldn’t change that much. And so that’s probably good. And you know, yeah the disease
therapy has changed, so it’s not only no longer a death sentence, but also I don’t—because of the





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new drug regimens and stuff like that, I don’t have to worry about my body changing, or worry
as much about my body changing the way a lot of people had their bodies change. And yeah
there’s a bunch of things.

And you know, needle drugs don’t interest me, like even drugs don’t interest me all that much
anymore. Part of it is there’s a level of caution around drugs because, boy, that fentanyl seems to
be in everything. Good old marijuana still seems safe, but that’s about it. Oh, and liquor of
course. As safe as it ever was. So, that kind of stuff, I did my party and play in the eighties. And
so, been there done that, it doesn’t really interest me anymore. And it’s interesting, you know,
when I was doing my research, one of the people on my committee made this comment about
gay age. Which is like your age at coming out—your chronological age minus your age at
coming out, plus thirteen. So basically, when you come out, you start acting like a thirteen-year-
old and that’s your gay age. But like my gay age is I think it’s maybe one year less than my
chronological age. But you meet these people who are coming out you know they were married
to someone and then that someone died, and now they’re coming out and you know, they’re in
their mid-fifties or mid-sixties and all of a sudden they’re behaving like a thirteen-year-old. And
that’s interesting to me, that people who are coming out late, really late. People who are my age
who are coming out, and they’re out there, and people who are older than me who are coming
out, and it’s just like, what an interesting life you must have had. Or I also meet people who
would like to come out. People who are having sex with men but are still like totally in the closet
or in a marriage or whatever, and would like to come out but don’t feel that those avenues are
open to them because either the community they’re in or—like the community, maybe it’s a
religious community, maybe it’s like a geographic community, like you know, in the Interior or
something like that. So there’s all these issues that are faced by so many people that, you know, I
guess we’re not completely liberated as yet.

There’s a great interview on CBC, and the interviewee was commenting that sexual minorities
don’t want equality, or even liberation, what they want is indifference. So, it’s like, oh, you’re
gay, no, sorry, I don’t date guys, I date women. Or, oh, you’re gay, oh, that’s great I date guys
too. They just want indifference, so that everybody gets treated—you know, it’s not a big deal
for anybody to have any particular sexual orientation, because everyone’s more or less
indifferent and they just put that right out there. We have a lot of complexity these days, because
we have the entire spectrum of gender that people are talking about for the first time, not that it
was not there before, but people are actually talking about it, and layered on that the entire
spectrum of gender expression and then another spectrum of sexual orientation. So you have all
these people who identify as all these different things, and then they have their romantic ideation
and their sexual ideation, and it’s fantastic that people are actually talking about this and maybe
in another a couple of generations we will have indifference because people are actually talking
about it. I’m not sure that we’re really anywhere close to being there yet, but it’s exciting that it’s
moving ahead, and more and more people are talking about it.

BK: One question we always ask near the end of an interview is just what advice or messages
you might have for younger generations of gay men who maybe didn’t live through this time,
just as somebody who lived through this period where HIV meant something quite different.






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GK: Yeah, that’s a tough question because I’m not sure that my experiences will inform their
experiences. Certainly my experiences around being gay and coming out, and again, even the
way people talk about sexual orientation, or romantic orientation and gender, those kind of
things, it’s exciting. But it was a tough time without question, but those people aren’t going to
have to face that tough time. They may have to face some other fabulous, new, tough time, and
you know, maybe that’s where advice could go is that there might be some new disease that
comes up. This was—it’s almost impossible to conceptualize what, like—that AIDS happened.
So, there was nothing and we were all having a good time and we were having sex and we were
looking forward to emancipation, you know, there was all this great stuff happening. And then
all of a sudden, out of nowhere, came a disease and that was so weird. So maybe it’ll be
something horrific like Ebola or something like that, there’s something like HIV could happen at
any time. And there’s a lot of negative that came out of it, and some positive that came out of it.
And the levels of positive and negative are impacted by, say people being courageous. That
people came out as living with HIV and that advanced conversations, and people came out as
queer and that advanced conversations. And so a lot of those conversations continue to advance,
but there might end up being some new conversations that will be about who knows what.

And then one clear piece of advice I’d give is don’t vote conservative. Yeah, I’ve just lived too
long to—conservative politicians really mess things up for so many people, and so yeah, I quite
confidently give that advice. But like, it isn’t going to be HIV, but it could be something else.
And it might not be a disease, you know it might be some kind of social circumstance or—
there’s all kinds of things that could happen that will have dramatic impacts on people’s lives.
You know, my parents lived through the second world war and it changed their life. I can
remember my dad talking about his amazement at the first atomic bomb, and like, they realized
that the world changed. And I can even—certainly HIV was a big thing for me—but also
September 11th, 2001 the world changed, and you know, I don’t really like how it’s changed
because it’s been played up again, by people I would characterize as conservatives into this
weird terrorism threat thing, and so things happen and the thing that makes the biggest difference
is being courageous and speaking out and being true to yourself. Right, that’s really like
motherhood and apple pie, but it’s really like being true to yourself and living an authentic life
does amazing stuff. Maybe not for the world, but certainly for you and the people who know
you.

BK: Yeah, there is a lesson there around the value of resistance, I think, political resistance.
Mobilization. That’s kind of it for my formal questions. We always do like to leave some space
at the end just to see if there’s anything that you wanted to add before we wrap up.

GK: Something remarkable I’ve somehow left unsaid.

BK: Well, things that we might not have probed in terms of our questions. That’s quite possible.

GK: I’m sure that as I think of it later, I’ll come up with very clever things that I should’ve said,
but yeah, it’s hard to say – nothing really leaps to mind. We’ve talked about a lot of things.

BK: I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. Great, well, I just want to say thank you before I turn
off the recording.





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GK: No problem.