Interview with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams, Rosa Andrew, and Susan Nelson
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The Mind of a Child
Face to Face Media Ltd.
LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 29
This will be close up sound for ____ on the porch.
(Woman and child speaking Indian language)
BEEP BEEP And cut that ...
This will be take two for sound on the porch.
(Woman speaking Indian language)
And cut. That was take two. BEEP BEEP
One two three four. This is late I.D. This is roll 29,
the 10th of October, 1993. And our next slate will be 131,
CR 37.
Wild sound on porch with kittens.
(Women speaking Indian language)
BEEP
(Women speaking Indian)
This will be 132 head. BEEP
(Woman speaking Indian)
BEEP
(Woman speaking Indian)
Next will be 134 head. This will be take three. Camera
roll 38.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 29
BEEP
(Women speaking Indian)
This will be wild sound.
(Woman and child speaking Indian)
This will be for sound.
(Child)
BEEP BEEP
(Child)
(Woman and child)
And once more ...
(Woman and child)
Next we’ll have Lorna arriving in front of the house. This
will be wild to go with picture. Pulling up in a black
car.
That was a rehearsal. And the car was leaving as Lorna was
arriving and now we’ll do a second take and this should be
going with picture.
BEEP 136 tail .. no lights. That was no light showing on
that one. Lights were off. That was 136 tail. The lights
were off and the next one will be 137.
BEEP 137 tail.
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The Mind of a Child
Face to Face Media Ltd.
LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 29
This will be 138 head slate.
BEEP
LORNA Um, when I was, um, when I went to residential school
in Williams Lake, we couldn’t talk our language and then,
but there was some, there were Chilcotins, Shuswap up there
and people from all over the place and so when I came home
after two years, I didn’t, I didn’t know what language I
could speak because in grade one, I, I went to school and I
only spoke English and (Native) and then I learned the
English and I seemed to be able to learn it okay. Like
really fast because, um, my brothers were helping me with
some words. And then when I was sent away to residential
school, then I came home and I was getting all mixed up,
like all the vocabulary, so there would be some English,
some French some Shuswap, Chilcotin, some of my own words,
then everybody used to laugh at me. And so, I used to go
and babysit down the other end of the village and so I used
to come out of the house and then go, walk by W___ house and
she would be saying to be ... (Indian). I remember many
times I was trying to think of what I could say to her and
so one day I, I worked out a whole sentence and I got Mom to
help me and I was, so I walked by and when W_____ said
(Indian), I was able to say to her (Indian) and then, then
that was the first and then the next sentence I said, I
wanted, I wanted to initiate the conversation so I said to
her, (Indian) and then she seemed to catch on that I was
wanting to, to, to learn so every day she would add, make
the sentence a bit longer and then a little longer and then
she forced me to respond in different ways. And so I’d go
home and all day before I was going to go over to babysit, I
was, um, I was, and working out sentences in my mind and
then gradually over the months it, I was really able to
learn it again. And so, language then I think is really
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 29
important and when I think about the, you know, the policies
and the regulations that, um, that said that in order for us
to learn English we had to forget our own language. That,
um, it’s more than, it’s more than just having an ability to
speak and a language, a language is much, much more. And,
um, um, I know that for you it’s become really more
important too. Here with, with your kids.
WOMAN Ya, I feel it’s important for them to know the
language, just to, because of who they are. I want them to,
um, to be proud of who they are. Proud ____.
LORNA So what have you been doing to, to help them do you
think?
WOMAN Well, I moved schools, I moved them to our own school.
Where they do teach the language but I, I still think they
can do more. They only get like an hour and a half a week
of our language and I think it should be, they should be
taught in our own language. Ya, and have an English class
if that’s, you know, if they have to learn English.
LORNA I think we have to turn it around too. I think we have
to turn it around to, from, um, what happened to our
parents. Um, not to the point of where we have to beat it
into them, like our parents were beaten for speaking our own
language, but ... because if we don’t, um, teach our
children, then we’re the last generation that know the
language and if we don’t teach them in our language, it’s
going to be lost.
You know, something just crossed my mind, you know, when you
were talking about language, because when I went to Europe,
I was over there trying to learn German and I just had a
terrible time trying to remember the pronunciation and all
that and when I came home, that was one of my main goals
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 29
too, was to learn our own language because why was I over
there trying to learn someone else’s language so ... it’s
pretty understandable.
I sometimes get embarrassed because I don’t know my
language. You know, but it’s not our fault, you know.
What do you think the language gives us. Knowing our
language?
For me I thing I would be proud to be able to speak my own
language. You know, it would, uh, like when I hear Japanese
or Chinese, you know, they really speak their own language.
I’m proud of them you know. I envy them.
Would be a big part of the feeling that has to come, or has
to be done. Self esteem. Would come from hearing ourself,
I think.
BEEP 139 tail.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
This is SR 30, next slate is 140.
I’m on CR 39.
LORNA Well I don’t think it was connected, the, my feeling
wasn’t connected to the language. I think that it was, the
trauma is what has got me totally confused so while I was up
there I wasn’t thinking about losing the language. It
wasn’t until later that, you know that, it wasn’t later, not
even until my adult years that I realized that, um, really
what had happened to me, you know, because there are lots of
things that you don’t think about when you’re, when you’re
in a situation.
GARY Do you rememeber much of what you did think about at the
time? Do you still have really strong impressions from that
as well? Of the way you were feeling. Did you block it out
or is it still with you? I wonder if you would describe
that to people to make them understand what kids felt.
LORNA Well I think that it was, the two years I was up there,
I mean, I was, I think I was in such shock that I was, um,
that I was up there without my family and um, I felt
betrayed by my family that they would send me up there and,
um, there were so many different impressions, like it was a
totally different kind of life and so, like there wasn’t joy
in living because everything was so regimented that, um,
that I was always in a state of alertness because I was
trying to read all of, trying to figure things out because I
didn’t speak fluent, any of the languages. And so, I had
then to be really always, to be like kind of sitting at the
edge, just trying to, trying to understand, trying to make
some sense of what it was that we were supposed to be doing,
knowing that, um, living in fear I guess, like, just
constantly living in fear. And, um, never really being
clear about who, first of all who it was allowable for us to
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
talk to because we weren’t allowed as juniors to talk to
seniors and intermediates. We weren’t allowed to talk to
anybody on the boy’s side, so it was just trying to sort out
who we could talk to and who we couldn’t talk to. When we
could talk because there was times for silence and times for
talking and, um, so I guess the lonliness, the isolation and
the fear, I guess would be the most, um, those were the
feelings, I guess.
BEEP BEEP Second beep
WOMAN You were there for two years?
LORNA Mm mm. It wasn’t ... I mean, it was only two years, so
... it wasn’t a very long time but still ...
WOMAN How old were you?
LORNA Just turning seven ... when I was put on the train.
GARY You wound up hearing about this from lots of people or
just ...
WOMAN Mm mm. I feel like, um, my parents ... I don’t know if
I could talk about that. I get so emotional ... (crying)
cause my parents were taken away, my parents were taken away
from their parents and ... so they didn’t know how to show
love and affection so ... when they were bringing me up and
my brothers and sister, they didn’t know how to show us any
love because, because they were taken away from their
parents. I feel like something was, a part of me was ripped
out because ... because I lost out on so much. That’s why I
want to give that to my kids but, like, I don’t even know
how to start.
LORNA I think you are giving that to your kids though. You
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
know. It’s, so it’s something that you may not have
experienced ... you experienced in a way, in a certain way
from your parents. I think, but maybe not in the way that
you, you wanted. And, um, I guess what I remember though,
over the years in watching you with your children is that,
you know, that’s, you know, what you have devoted your life
to do. And, um, I think that in the work that, that we’re
doing, that’s what it is. It’s, you know, it’s, um, it’s
being able to give, I guess, focus and direction, you know,
to children and, um, and that’s what parenting is, is really
about. And so somewhere along the way, you must have had
it, you know, to, must, you must have experienced it enough
to be able to be as, uh, caring and, with your children.
Ya. Because they’re really, when you look at your kids,
they’re really, um, um, bright and comfortable and
knowledgeable. Mm mm. And in a way they return that to you
too.
WOMAN Ya.
LORNA But it is, I think that, um, people talk about the loss
of the language and of the separation of the families that
it was a trauma for that generation. I think that they
don’t realize how, you know, like ...
WOMAN How far down the line it goes.
LORNA Ya. Ya.
WOMAN Cause I, like ... growing up I never, I remember as a
kid, not once, my Dad, not once do I remember him holding
me, you know. He was scared, he was afraid to. He didn’t
know how to be a father. He wanted to, but .. because he
was taken away ...
BEEP
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
GARY Even if you were doing all the right things, it would be
nice to know from your own experience, I mean, just being
around your kids today, I get the same feeling Lorna has.
These kids are just open and full of life.
WOMAN I think I had to, um, I had to put a block up, like I
knew at one time, when I was bringing them up and they were
just babies, like, it’s up to me to carry on or else stop
what has happened. It’s up to me to put that block there.
There was times when I knew I was treating my kids the way
my Mom was treating us, eh? Like, the way she was treated
in boarding school. Like I was carrying that on to my kids
and I knew that, you know. So I’m going to stop it. If
it’s going to stop it’s going to have to stop here or if I
treat my kids like that, my kids are going to turn around
and treat their kids like that. It’s up to me to put the
block up.
LORNA I think that, um, I remember that, um, your Mom’s
mother was, um, used to always say, like there was always
that comment that the kids are good if they were quiet. You
know, if, if they didn’t cry or they, you know, went right
to sleep then that was what was, uh, valued. And I remember
a conversation that we had, you and I about, I guess it was
when, when Chrissie was a baby and you were, um, no, I guess
it was, I think she was just young then, Chris, and you were
concerned because Lara wasn’t talking. Remember? Do you
remember that time?
WOMAN Lara wasn’t talking?
LORNA She wasn’t, um, talking that much and you were
concerned about what you could do to help her.
WOMAN Oh ya. Mm mm.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
LORNA And so, I think that was the first time that I
explained to you what I was studying about and what mothers
and fathers could do to help their children at school and so
we were talking then about how important it was for you to
explain things to your kids because in a sense I think that
that’s what was, what was missing. Like they are, some of
the parents who experienced boarding school would just give
direct commands and they were never explaining anything. Do
you remember that?
WOMAN Mm mm.
LORNA And I remember you practicing, practicing being able to
do that. And so I think that, um, what I noticed was a real
difference in Chantelle and how talkative she was, like,
ya ... she knew a lot because you explained a lot to her.
Ya. And so as a, a young mother then it’s, you know, it’s
those kinds of things that I think that’s necessary for us
to be able to help, to help young mothers to do. It’s one
way of, we know of being the block cause of being able to
break that, that link with, you know ...
WOMAN Boarding schools?
LORNA Ya.
GARY Are you in fact involved in helping young mothers? Perhaps
you could talk just a little bit about that.
WOMAN It all connects, eh?
LORNA Ya, in the, one of the programs that, um, that I’ve
been watching is, um, using the criteria of the mediated
leraning experience in helping parents to know, um, to give
an understanding to parents of what of the meaning of their
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 30
interaction between themselves and their children. It’s not
to say that you tell them how to interact, but the meaning
of it. And, um, why it’s important that, that, um, that as
humans we were born with a need to connect with, with
others, with other people. And that connection is through
your, the language of your face and the language that, of,
you know, your own language and it’s that exchange that you
begin to build right from babyhood that, uh, you know, with
your babies, that builds that ability to be inquisitive
later on. You know, and the ability to be able to derive
meaning from, from what’s going on around, around us. And
so, I really see that as a way of, of us trying to, you
know, to, to break, you know, what happened. So just
because, you know, I think a point that you made that’s
really important, that just because, um, you experienced
first hand, you know, what happened to your parents in
boarding school, the fact that you could intentionally know
that you could, you know, you could change that, I think
that that’s what’s really important.
BEE[ 142 tail
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 31
TONE
LORNA ... language immersion. Remember when we went up to
____.
WOMAN Ya.
SR 31, 144’s next.
GARY So what do you think Lorna, which way do you want to go
here? I can have a direct question or we can ... maybe I
could ask you Roseanne?, you were talking about finding
other ways of dealing with things, and that’s in a way, and
then Lorna’s about just sort of in general helping people
find other ways, um where did were you when, I mean Kirk and
Olivia live upstairs, just have a five month old baby and
it seems like every ten minutes the baby’s doing something
new and they’re always trying to figure out how to respond
to it and you’re getting really experienced at this. I’m
wondering where you’re getting your sense of how to do it
differently. How to respond.
WOMAN You mean like, how, like, with the language?
GARY Well I was thinking more of in your relationship with your
kids. How does your relationship with kids becomes what you
give your kids becomes, helps them be what they are and
that’s sort of a theme that we’re following through this
whole story, is how important it is and the, the sort of
good news is exactly that even if it wasn’t what you would
like to have been, there are still things you can do and it
sounds to me like you’re doing it.
WOMAN There are still things I can give them like? Even
though like I didn’t have it?
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 31
GARY Ya. But how do you know what those things are? I mean,
Lorna’s talking about you’re getting in there and actually
getting people ...
I guess that would be John and Mary for us. John and Mary
Williams. The way, the relationship they had with their
children, as they were growing up. From what I’ve seen
anyway, I haven’t really lived there. I did some travelling
with them for awhile, but, and uh, and Gramma Edlena, just
the patient way that they have with people or the, and
Lorna. They amount of time that they, they don’t mind
spending to explain something. Sort of ... helps a child I
guess, be patient. My Mom I remember coming too, and
realizing, you know, how patient they were. Even when I was
throwing a fit.
When we first started to ___. That’s real good memories.
It was, what do you remember about that time.
It was cold, we were in a gym with no heat. We all had to
leave our winter boots, or coats and our toques all on, eh?
What, was still better than going to white school. We
learned how to make, like snow shoes. Nobody ever taught us
that before. They taught us how to make snowshoes. Fish
nets. Doing fish nets. Even bow and arrows. We kind of
got carried away with that though. We were shooting at each
other. We’d set up teams. This team goes on this side of
the gym, this team goes over here and we’d shoot across the
gym. (LAUGHTER) Until my brother got hit right here. And
we thought we better put that game away for awhile. Back to
snowshoes. It was really good though. I felt like, um,
those were my good memories about school. Because we were
being taught by our, our own people. I think a lot of that
is where I got, like, my knowledge on how to bring up my
kids. Like John and Mary were my idol, eh, they were ...
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 31
because they were proud of who they are.
LORNA Ya, and that they could, they could learn those because
both of them spent their own lives in boarding school, like
from grade one to grade twelve and, um, I remember Mary
coming home and I used to, it wasn’t until I think I was
twelve years old that I realized she was my sister. I used
to wonder who this person was who was coming and spending
the summer. And, um, and then John spent, like all of his
time pretty well, in boarding school. And sometimes he’d go
and even during the summer, he was, he was in boarding
school because he, he, um, lost his parents and so, ya, I
think I really admired them because they, you know, really
learned, like they worked hard to relearn everything, every
thing that they missed. Ya, so I think that, it’s
inspiring.
WOMAN They weren’t afraid to pass down the knowledge eh?
BEEP
They weren’t ashamed, like, like a lot of our people (BEEP)
learned to be ashamed of who they were. Ashamed to be
_____. It still goes on now.
GARY What was the expression you used? It seemed to be ...
WOMAN ________. Indian.
I want my kids to be proud like this, that’s why I’ve done a
lot of the things I’ve done. I want them to be proud ... of
who they are.
LORNA I remember hearing when you were, when you were first
starting that school, he was, he would assign you to go and
help the elders.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 31
WOMAN Ya. Ya.
LORNA I remember hearing about that. Whatever they needed
help with.
WOMAN Ya, we’d be sent out.
LORNA That was part of our way, when you were at that age, to
be of help, to be _______ and that means that, that nobody
has to tell you how to be helpful. You can take the
initiative on your own.
GARY What age does that supposed to come by?
WOMAN About twelve.
LORNA So that was the principle that we wanted to carry on in
the, in the school. Like those values.
... actually trying to write, the language. Trying to put
it into writing?
WOMAN Ya.
LORNA I think we’ll start with, um, Susan, um, commen-,
saying again about, about sending the students out to the
old peoples to be helpful. Say that again.
WOMAN I remember hearing a lot about, uh, when John sent,
sent you out to help the old people with whatever they
needed to be done or, I guess even just to sit there and
visit with them, or chop wood or, and I know Alvin my
brother was saying that and I just heard you say it again
and Fay was saying it so that’s a big part of the
connection, I guess, between the generations and where
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SR 31
learning would come from, just to watch the old people move
around in their life and what they did.
They were really patient with us. They, they, like, they
never, they never told you to do it, eh? They always, like,
as long as you were around eh, they always showed you by
example.
LORNA That was, um, I think one of the primary principles
that young people had to learn how to do when they reached
adolescence, that, um, the highest value that really, that
people put on, on young people was if you were ____, that’s
what it’s called and to be _____ means to be able to go and
be helpful to somebody so that you are not directed to it so
that you can observe and figure out what would be helpful to
them. See, so they wouldn’t tell you directly what to do
but they would give you cues as to what it is that you
should be doing and so by the time you’re a teenager you’re
power of observation, your power of, um, being able to look
around and to see how things should be done, to look at
systems, see, so if you know that there was dishes, for
example on the table, then you have to know that you need to
wash them, so, you don’t need to be told to do it but you
could just start doing it. So it’s initiating action but,
and directing it from yourself. See that’s the ...
WOMAN Comes, comes from within you then ... somehow you just
know I guess. That it has, what needs to be done or ...
LORNA So that was, I think in the school we were trying to
take those kinds of ideas, you know, and putting them into a
program but, um, the thing, away back then, was, was that we
didn’t , we knew that that’s what we had to do but we didn’t
really understand fully, like, why, you know.
BEEP
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SR 31
GARY That was 146, no lights.
BEEP
LORNA No I don’t think any, nobody explained it to me. It
was, um, the job that I was given by the Board, the, the
____ Board was to research the language and to help with
developing a writing system for the language so that meant
gathering, gathering words and information and it was, and
it was through doing that, the process of just really
thinking through the meanings of words and the translations
of, of the meaning to English that I began to see that, um,
um, I began to see what was different between the English
language and the English way of doing things that we had
learned and our own way. And so nobody, you know, took me
aside and said, um, and, you know, explained _____ to me.
Really. Because that’s not the natural process when you’re
living life, nobody, um, and it’s, in a way, it’s, um, um,
it’s unreal. You know to do the, the so much explaining
because that’s built right from babyhood, your daily meaning
and the meaning is coming not just from the word itself, but
it’s coming from the relationship that, um, mothers and
fathers have with their children. The relationship, their
language meaning comes from the relationships that they have
with their siblings and other significant people.
Grandparents and in our case, I think the strong influence
still is the relationship between children and aunts and
uncles. And, uh, so that’s how we derive meaning kind of in
the natural process but, um, and over the years, I think
that what the theory of mediated learning helps me to do is
to know, is it gives a guide as to what it is we need to
really fully explain, you know, and it helps me to interpret
what it was that we did in, you know, in our, in our way, in
our societies. And then, and then going back and forth from
that know-, knowledge now and the language helps me to begin
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 31
to build up, I guess, what happened in families and how
knowledge was passed down from one generation to another.
So it’s, it just works, it all works together.
BEEP That’s 146 tail.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 32
That was 149 tail.
... Ricky? Or Calvin?
This must be Ricky? This must be Calvin?
Sure look alike.
I was wondering because you can see Harvey there.
That looks like a post card.
Mm mm.
That’s it. Oh well.
Fay?
That was my next guess.
She looks more like Lisa.
BEEP
1958.
Mm mm.
Veronica.
Oh.
Ya, with Dad(?). I think when I remember Dad(?), he was
already old. I used to bring ice cream to him. He was like
in this picture here, this one here already.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 32
Oh ya.
Always sat there and nodded his head.
Cause he was deaf. And he used to, I think, pretend he
was deaf.
He used to always, he used to think he was reading
the paper because, he used to always be looking at the paper and
he didn’t even know how to read.
LORNA We used to, sometimes when I’d go over there, and the
night, at night he used to have a cigarette and then on his
package he’d do numbers. So he knew, he was teaching
himself. This one here, is, um, P_____. His uncle. Dad’s
uncle.
Halley.
See the resemblance.
LORNA Ya, I remember when he used to come to the school to do
story telling. And one of the stories that he told was
about when he was twelve and he joined our grandfather on,
um, the pack train to Squamish. This lady here is, um, Mrs.
Paul Dick, so her husband was the last hereditary chief,
like practicing hereditary chief. This guy’s father,
grandfather was the, um, _______ and remember Hugh Copman,
he’s used to walk beside uh, he used to walk by the house
and we’d all run in the house.
GARY Can you tell who the people are in that, talking about in
the top photograph.
It looks like Barney.
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LORNA WILLIAMS
SR 32
No, it’s Billy I think. This must be Larry. Or Lloyd.
Double chin’s Lloyd.
This looks like Mary, but if ... that’s true then this one
would have to be your Mom, but that doesn’t look like her.
With that smile see, that’s a Mary smile.
BEEP
That’s Mark’s Mom.
GARY Did you say you were in this one? No.
And thats?
WOMAN Georgina.
GARY Georgina? And who are the kids to the left of that other
photo.
Alv and Lois and Arnold.
And there’s a blond in the window. (LAUGHTER)
That’s Mandad(?)
GARY And with the fish?
WOMAN That’s Mandad.
GARY And that’s your uncle?
WOMAN Yep.
GARY Could you talk a little bit about him, just to kind of
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introduce him. I guess you all knew him.
LORNA Dad is the one who told me the story about, um, the
people and the small pox. He’s, um, he’s, um, people called
him, he is _____, that was his name and, uh, people called
him ______ and I think that, um, I started off calling him
Dad because he was, lived across the street from us and I
spent a lot of time with them and he used to be the one who,
when babies were born, he would give them, the babies, like
a song that he would sing to babies so that, it, they would
become calm. And so I think that probably in all of our
lives, he was, ...
WOMAN Mm mm. I remember that.
LORNA ...he was really significant so when babies were born
one of the earliest things that we used to do would, in the
family, would be to bring our, our children to see him.
And, um, holding up the other end of the stick, is Ma and
she was my father’s sis-, older sister and they were, and
they brought my, my father and Susan, Ross’s grandmother
because their parents died and, uh, so I guess they were the
closest that we had, like to a grand-, to a set of
grandparents. And, um, Dad didn’t ever go to school so he
didn’t speak English or, um, but he knew all of the
traditional ways and I guess we always saw him as such a,
uh, secure person, like and he always knew how to do things
and he always seemed to be able to anticipate and know what
would make you happy, just, even just little actions and so
even if we didn’t talk to one another, that he would, um,
that you always felt included in his, in his life. And, um,
but I think that I was, or we were all, even though we don’t
talk about her as much, I think we were all influenced by,
by Ma too because of her ability to organize and to work so
effortlessly at, you know, at all the things that she used
to do. And I remember always, um, one of the things that I
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noticed later in their life was how well they were able to
communicate with one another without, without language,
without words. Ya. And she’s the one who, when I didn’t
know how to do something or if I was stuck with anything, I
used to go and just sit with her and we’d sit in her porch
for, um, for awhile and then, and even if we weren’t talking
I could think through whatever it was that I needed to do.
And she was really, um ... BEEP ... strong in, um, in that
people had to, had to behave, like appropriately as ________
and you could see it in her face if somebody wasn’t, you
know, wasn’t behaving in that way. So she was very, a
strong person but I know that, um, many people’s lives are
richer because, you know, because we had her ... to guide us
and teach us how to do things. Mm mm. And they worked
really well together as a team.
WOMAN I can still remember when, it must have been (unclear)
and um, I still remember being in her arms and watching her
tongue songs she used to ... I can remember that ... still
being in her arms looking up at her and watching her.
That’s how she put us to sleep.
Ya, getting you, getting you mem-, mesmerized.
Ya.
So I must have came to earlier. I must have came to
earlier.
And there’s Ma eh?
Mm mm.
I didn’t know who she is holding there.
I never even knew that.
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What?
I didn’t grow up knowing that, that was, uh, a very close
relative. Dad Ma_____
Oh really.
And, but I always remember hearing how people always going
over there to visit them.
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TONE
LORNA (Unclear) ... about this guy who, it was, it wasn’t in
Lilloet, I think, I don’t really remember but it sounds to
me that it was from people who lived way up in the upper
valley. Um, towards, uh, I guess Jarvis Inlet, around way
up there.
WOMAN Charlie Mackey talks about that place all the time.
LORNA Ya, cause _____ used to go up there to go, to go to,
um, used to come out of there to go to Sechelt, like and
they’d go, people would travel up that way and then along
the coast to Sechelt, then to Vancouver, but, and then the
other route was southeast and around to New Westminster.
But, um, he was telling me about the man, the, anyway, this,
the people used to live in, like in their family groupings
during the winter time and, um, and so there would be a big
_______ for the, the head man and his family and then there
would maybe be three or four smaller ones around. That were
other, you know, like extended family members would, would
live and, um, so these were winter homes that the _______,
that they would live in. And, um, I don’t really know how
it was, it got spread but, um, the, one winter were, just
started, this man’s family just started dying and, and it
was escalating. Everybody was, was really getting sick and
so the head man told, um, one of the young men who didn’t
seem to be sick to go to the next village, like to the next
group of, to another family who was, like living down, down
the valley, to go there and ask them for help. And, um,
because it was reaching, I guess, a real crisis point and,
um, the number of people who are dying in this family and so
the next morning, this young guy started to, started out on
his way, you know, pretty well in the middle of winter so it
was kind of hard travelling and so, um, I think he must have
had snow shoes and probably following the, following the
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river and he got to the, I guess it was maybe mid morning,
he got to the next ___, a group of _______ and he, when he
got there, he could see some smoke coming out of the, you
know, out of the smoke hole and so he hollered at them to
warn them inside that he was coming but he was really
feeling strange cause there was, it was so quiet and, um,
and when he hollered, he didn’t hear anybody and so he went
up to the top and he hollered again. He looked in and, uh,
and he started going in to the entrance hole and he got down
there and he realized that what had hit them had killed this
whole family, so they were all dead. And so, he knew then
that it was, that it was something that was not, you know,
that really was bad and, um, so he started up the fire again
cause it was still, you know, it was still a bit on and, uh,
and he piled stuff on it and he started to burn and then as
it was burning in there, he kept feeding the fire and then
finally he collapsed the _____ on top of the people and so
he thought, well, I’ll go to the next village and so he took
off again and, um, but he just brought you know, stuff with
him for, you know, cause he thought he was just going to go
to the next one ... and he came to the next family and then
the same thing, it was the same thing. He did the same
thing, collapsed the ________, then went to the next family
and to the next family and there wasn’t anybody and when he
came, I guess it was near here, the, cause see there more,
like there were a lot more down in the, closer to this
valley and already the people knew that something was coming
because they always seemed to sense it beforehand. And this
guy came and he was just sick because of, you know, because
of what he’d seen. So that was, that was the small pox.
The small pox epidemic.
GARY What did he do when he discovered these families? Would he
have buried them or sung song for them or would there have
been something that he would have done or was he just sort
of the messenger at this point?
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LORNA Well he was trying to find somebody would help his
family and, um, if it was just like under normal
circumstances, you know then he would, um, there would be a
ceremony but, um, they must have already sense that it was
contagious, that’s why he was collapsing them and it was so,
um, it was, just made it more urgent because you know, as he
was, I mean it’s a long way from up there to be travelling
in the winter time.
GARY What do you mean, he was collapsing them. I didn’t quite
understand.
LORNA Collapsing them? Just, um ..
WOMAN The people were buried right in the ... in the
lodge.
LORNA He was burying, he was burying the people right in the
lodge, collapsing the, the dome. So he’d start the fire
inside and then, you know, it would weaken the posts and
then he would just collapse them so, animals couldn’t
couldn’t get them.
GARY So would the people in side be burned first?
LORNA Mm mm. And that was not, like that was not our normal
way but you know, it wasn’t normal circumstances that this
man was facing.
GARY So he made the trail down through the valleys. Through many
residences?
LORNA Well there were, later on you know, I found out that
there were 30,000 people, 30,000 Lilloet and you know, like,
and so people in the winter time would spread, like right
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through the whole territory and so they didn’t live, like in
a large, um, group. They, they came together in large
groups in the summer because, you know, the land holds lots
of people and um, and, but in the winter time people spread
out so they spread out to hunt and to trap and you know, do
all of those and also, it was a time to be quiet with your
family and so, people split up. The land could cope easier,
you know, with fewer people in any one area.
WOMAN Did they see the _____ homes up there?
LORNA Ya, they did some filming up there?
GARY Thank you for all the questions ... just so we have
something of Lorna on camera, could you tell her how the
kids are doing at school or a story.
WOMAN I’ll tell you a different one. It’s about Dwayne and
the _____ home. Dwayne took some tourists, they wanted to
go moon light riding on horse, and he said, okay, I’ll take
you guys out to come to the ____ holes, moon light riding.
They were just going on really well, and um, all of a sudden
a cloud went over the moon, pitch dark, couldn’t see nothing
and usually you can trust the horses to find the trail but
it just so happened, this horse got lost and he kept on
trying and his horse kept getting lost so he gave up and he
said, he got off his horse and he went prowling through the
bush trying to find the trail and he bumped into a bear,
nose to nose to a bear. (LAUGHS)
That’s why the horse didn’t want to ...
Ya, the horse got lost cause he could smell the bear. And
goes back again and he gets on his horse and found a
trail ... and he tells the ... it must be the, must be the
ghosts that are getting him lost. He didn’t tell them that
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he bumped into the bear. He didn’t want to worry them.
GARY This will be ambience in the kitchen.
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This will be close up sound for ____ on the porch.
(Woman and child speaking Indian language)
BEEP BEEP And cut that ...
This will be take two for sound on the porch.
(Woman speaking Indian language)
And cut. That was take two. BEEP BEEP
One two three four. This is late I.D. This is roll 29,
the 10th of October, 1993. And our next slate will be 131,
CR 37.
Wild sound on porch with kittens.
(Women speaking Indian language)
BEEP
(Women speaking Indian)
This will be 132 head. BEEP
(Woman speaking Indian)
BEEP
(Woman speaking Indian)
Next will be 134 head. This will be take three. Camera
roll 38.
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BEEP
(Women speaking Indian)
This will be wild sound.
(Woman and child speaking Indian)
This will be for sound.
(Child)
BEEP BEEP
(Child)
(Woman and child)
And once more ...
(Woman and child)
Next we’ll have Lorna arriving in front of the house. This
will be wild to go with picture. Pulling up in a black
car.
That was a rehearsal. And the car was leaving as Lorna was
arriving and now we’ll do a second take and this should be
going with picture.
BEEP 136 tail .. no lights. That was no light showing on
that one. Lights were off. That was 136 tail. The lights
were off and the next one will be 137.
BEEP 137 tail.
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This will be 138 head slate.
BEEP
LORNA Um, when I was, um, when I went to residential school
in Williams Lake, we couldn’t talk our language and then,
but there was some, there were Chilcotins, Shuswap up there
and people from all over the place and so when I came home
after two years, I didn’t, I didn’t know what language I
could speak because in grade one, I, I went to school and I
only spoke English and (Native) and then I learned the
English and I seemed to be able to learn it okay. Like
really fast because, um, my brothers were helping me with
some words. And then when I was sent away to residential
school, then I came home and I was getting all mixed up,
like all the vocabulary, so there would be some English,
some French some Shuswap, Chilcotin, some of my own words,
then everybody used to laugh at me. And so, I used to go
and babysit down the other end of the village and so I used
to come out of the house and then go, walk by W___ house and
she would be saying to be ... (Indian). I remember many
times I was trying to think of what I could say to her and
so one day I, I worked out a whole sentence and I got Mom to
help me and I was, so I walked by and when W_____ said
(Indian), I was able to say to her (Indian) and then, then
that was the first and then the next sentence I said, I
wanted, I wanted to initiate the conversation so I said to
her, (Indian) and then she seemed to catch on that I was
wanting to, to, to learn so every day she would add, make
the sentence a bit longer and then a little longer and then
she forced me to respond in different ways. And so I’d go
home and all day before I was going to go over to babysit, I
was, um, I was, and working out sentences in my mind and
then gradually over the months it, I was really able to
learn it again. And so, language then I think is really
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important and when I think about the, you know, the policies
and the regulations that, um, that said that in order for us
to learn English we had to forget our own language. That,
um, it’s more than, it’s more than just having an ability to
speak and a language, a language is much, much more. And,
um, um, I know that for you it’s become really more
important too. Here with, with your kids.
WOMAN Ya, I feel it’s important for them to know the
language, just to, because of who they are. I want them to,
um, to be proud of who they are. Proud ____.
LORNA So what have you been doing to, to help them do you
think?
WOMAN Well, I moved schools, I moved them to our own school.
Where they do teach the language but I, I still think they
can do more. They only get like an hour and a half a week
of our language and I think it should be, they should be
taught in our own language. Ya, and have an English class
if that’s, you know, if they have to learn English.
LORNA I think we have to turn it around too. I think we have
to turn it around to, from, um, what happened to our
parents. Um, not to the point of where we have to beat it
into them, like our parents were beaten for speaking our own
language, but ... because if we don’t, um, teach our
children, then we’re the last generation that know the
language and if we don’t teach them in our language, it’s
going to be lost.
You know, something just crossed my mind, you know, when you
were talking about language, because when I went to Europe,
I was over there trying to learn German and I just had a
terrible time trying to remember the pronunciation and all
that and when I came home, that was one of my main goals
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too, was to learn our own language because why was I over
there trying to learn someone else’s language so ... it’s
pretty understandable.
I sometimes get embarrassed because I don’t know my
language. You know, but it’s not our fault, you know.
What do you think the language gives us. Knowing our
language?
For me I thing I would be proud to be able to speak my own
language. You know, it would, uh, like when I hear Japanese
or Chinese, you know, they really speak their own language.
I’m proud of them you know. I envy them.
Would be a big part of the feeling that has to come, or has
to be done. Self esteem. Would come from hearing ourself,
I think.
BEEP 139 tail.
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This is SR 30, next slate is 140.
I’m on CR 39.
LORNA Well I don’t think it was connected, the, my feeling
wasn’t connected to the language. I think that it was, the
trauma is what has got me totally confused so while I was up
there I wasn’t thinking about losing the language. It
wasn’t until later that, you know that, it wasn’t later, not
even until my adult years that I realized that, um, really
what had happened to me, you know, because there are lots of
things that you don’t think about when you’re, when you’re
in a situation.
GARY Do you rememeber much of what you did think about at the
time? Do you still have really strong impressions from that
as well? Of the way you were feeling. Did you block it out
or is it still with you? I wonder if you would describe
that to people to make them understand what kids felt.
LORNA Well I think that it was, the two years I was up there,
I mean, I was, I think I was in such shock that I was, um,
that I was up there without my family and um, I felt
betrayed by my family that they would send me up there and,
um, there were so many different impressions, like it was a
totally different kind of life and so, like there wasn’t joy
in living because everything was so regimented that, um,
that I was always in a state of alertness because I was
trying to read all of, trying to figure things out because I
didn’t speak fluent, any of the languages. And so, I had
then to be really always, to be like kind of sitting at the
edge, just trying to, trying to understand, trying to make
some sense of what it was that we were supposed to be doing,
knowing that, um, living in fear I guess, like, just
constantly living in fear. And, um, never really being
clear about who, first of all who it was allowable for us to
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talk to because we weren’t allowed as juniors to talk to
seniors and intermediates. We weren’t allowed to talk to
anybody on the boy’s side, so it was just trying to sort out
who we could talk to and who we couldn’t talk to. When we
could talk because there was times for silence and times for
talking and, um, so I guess the lonliness, the isolation and
the fear, I guess would be the most, um, those were the
feelings, I guess.
BEEP BEEP Second beep
WOMAN You were there for two years?
LORNA Mm mm. It wasn’t ... I mean, it was only two years, so
... it wasn’t a very long time but still ...
WOMAN How old were you?
LORNA Just turning seven ... when I was put on the train.
GARY You wound up hearing about this from lots of people or
just ...
WOMAN Mm mm. I feel like, um, my parents ... I don’t know if
I could talk about that. I get so emotional ... (crying)
cause my parents were taken away, my parents were taken away
from their parents and ... so they didn’t know how to show
love and affection so ... when they were bringing me up and
my brothers and sister, they didn’t know how to show us any
love because, because they were taken away from their
parents. I feel like something was, a part of me was ripped
out because ... because I lost out on so much. That’s why I
want to give that to my kids but, like, I don’t even know
how to start.
LORNA I think you are giving that to your kids though. You
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know. It’s, so it’s something that you may not have
experienced ... you experienced in a way, in a certain way
from your parents. I think, but maybe not in the way that
you, you wanted. And, um, I guess what I remember though,
over the years in watching you with your children is that,
you know, that’s, you know, what you have devoted your life
to do. And, um, I think that in the work that, that we’re
doing, that’s what it is. It’s, you know, it’s, um, it’s
being able to give, I guess, focus and direction, you know,
to children and, um, and that’s what parenting is, is really
about. And so somewhere along the way, you must have had
it, you know, to, must, you must have experienced it enough
to be able to be as, uh, caring and, with your children.
Ya. Because they’re really, when you look at your kids,
they’re really, um, um, bright and comfortable and
knowledgeable. Mm mm. And in a way they return that to you
too.
WOMAN Ya.
LORNA But it is, I think that, um, people talk about the loss
of the language and of the separation of the families that
it was a trauma for that generation. I think that they
don’t realize how, you know, like ...
WOMAN How far down the line it goes.
LORNA Ya. Ya.
WOMAN Cause I, like ... growing up I never, I remember as a
kid, not once, my Dad, not once do I remember him holding
me, you know. He was scared, he was afraid to. He didn’t
know how to be a father. He wanted to, but .. because he
was taken away ...
BEEP
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GARY Even if you were doing all the right things, it would be
nice to know from your own experience, I mean, just being
around your kids today, I get the same feeling Lorna has.
These kids are just open and full of life.
WOMAN I think I had to, um, I had to put a block up, like I
knew at one time, when I was bringing them up and they were
just babies, like, it’s up to me to carry on or else stop
what has happened. It’s up to me to put that block there.
There was times when I knew I was treating my kids the way
my Mom was treating us, eh? Like, the way she was treated
in boarding school. Like I was carrying that on to my kids
and I knew that, you know. So I’m going to stop it. If
it’s going to stop it’s going to have to stop here or if I
treat my kids like that, my kids are going to turn around
and treat their kids like that. It’s up to me to put the
block up.
LORNA I think that, um, I remember that, um, your Mom’s
mother was, um, used to always say, like there was always
that comment that the kids are good if they were quiet. You
know, if, if they didn’t cry or they, you know, went right
to sleep then that was what was, uh, valued. And I remember
a conversation that we had, you and I about, I guess it was
when, when Chrissie was a baby and you were, um, no, I guess
it was, I think she was just young then, Chris, and you were
concerned because Lara wasn’t talking. Remember? Do you
remember that time?
WOMAN Lara wasn’t talking?
LORNA She wasn’t, um, talking that much and you were
concerned about what you could do to help her.
WOMAN Oh ya. Mm mm.
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LORNA And so, I think that was the first time that I
explained to you what I was studying about and what mothers
and fathers could do to help their children at school and so
we were talking then about how important it was for you to
explain things to your kids because in a sense I think that
that’s what was, what was missing. Like they are, some of
the parents who experienced boarding school would just give
direct commands and they were never explaining anything. Do
you remember that?
WOMAN Mm mm.
LORNA And I remember you practicing, practicing being able to
do that. And so I think that, um, what I noticed was a real
difference in Chantelle and how talkative she was, like,
ya ... she knew a lot because you explained a lot to her.
Ya. And so as a, a young mother then it’s, you know, it’s
those kinds of things that I think that’s necessary for us
to be able to help, to help young mothers to do. It’s one
way of, we know of being the block cause of being able to
break that, that link with, you know ...
WOMAN Boarding schools?
LORNA Ya.
GARY Are you in fact involved in helping young mothers? Perhaps
you could talk just a little bit about that.
WOMAN It all connects, eh?
LORNA Ya, in the, one of the programs that, um, that I’ve
been watching is, um, using the criteria of the mediated
leraning experience in helping parents to know, um, to give
an understanding to parents of what of the meaning of their
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interaction between themselves and their children. It’s not
to say that you tell them how to interact, but the meaning
of it. And, um, why it’s important that, that, um, that as
humans we were born with a need to connect with, with
others, with other people. And that connection is through
your, the language of your face and the language that, of,
you know, your own language and it’s that exchange that you
begin to build right from babyhood that, uh, you know, with
your babies, that builds that ability to be inquisitive
later on. You know, and the ability to be able to derive
meaning from, from what’s going on around, around us. And
so, I really see that as a way of, of us trying to, you
know, to, to break, you know, what happened. So just
because, you know, I think a point that you made that’s
really important, that just because, um, you experienced
first hand, you know, what happened to your parents in
boarding school, the fact that you could intentionally know
that you could, you know, you could change that, I think
that that’s what’s really important.
BEE[ 142 tail
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TONE
LORNA ... language immersion. Remember when we went up to
____.
WOMAN Ya.
SR 31, 144’s next.
GARY So what do you think Lorna, which way do you want to go
here? I can have a direct question or we can ... maybe I
could ask you Roseanne?, you were talking about finding
other ways of dealing with things, and that’s in a way, and
then Lorna’s about just sort of in general helping people
find other ways, um where did were you when, I mean Kirk and
Olivia live upstairs, just have a five month old baby and
it seems like every ten minutes the baby’s doing something
new and they’re always trying to figure out how to respond
to it and you’re getting really experienced at this. I’m
wondering where you’re getting your sense of how to do it
differently. How to respond.
WOMAN You mean like, how, like, with the language?
GARY Well I was thinking more of in your relationship with your
kids. How does your relationship with kids becomes what you
give your kids becomes, helps them be what they are and
that’s sort of a theme that we’re following through this
whole story, is how important it is and the, the sort of
good news is exactly that even if it wasn’t what you would
like to have been, there are still things you can do and it
sounds to me like you’re doing it.
WOMAN There are still things I can give them like? Even
though like I didn’t have it?
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GARY Ya. But how do you know what those things are? I mean,
Lorna’s talking about you’re getting in there and actually
getting people ...
I guess that would be John and Mary for us. John and Mary
Williams. The way, the relationship they had with their
children, as they were growing up. From what I’ve seen
anyway, I haven’t really lived there. I did some travelling
with them for awhile, but, and uh, and Gramma Edlena, just
the patient way that they have with people or the, and
Lorna. They amount of time that they, they don’t mind
spending to explain something. Sort of ... helps a child I
guess, be patient. My Mom I remember coming too, and
realizing, you know, how patient they were. Even when I was
throwing a fit.
When we first started to ___. That’s real good memories.
It was, what do you remember about that time.
It was cold, we were in a gym with no heat. We all had to
leave our winter boots, or coats and our toques all on, eh?
What, was still better than going to white school. We
learned how to make, like snow shoes. Nobody ever taught us
that before. They taught us how to make snowshoes. Fish
nets. Doing fish nets. Even bow and arrows. We kind of
got carried away with that though. We were shooting at each
other. We’d set up teams. This team goes on this side of
the gym, this team goes over here and we’d shoot across the
gym. (LAUGHTER) Until my brother got hit right here. And
we thought we better put that game away for awhile. Back to
snowshoes. It was really good though. I felt like, um,
those were my good memories about school. Because we were
being taught by our, our own people. I think a lot of that
is where I got, like, my knowledge on how to bring up my
kids. Like John and Mary were my idol, eh, they were ...
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because they were proud of who they are.
LORNA Ya, and that they could, they could learn those because
both of them spent their own lives in boarding school, like
from grade one to grade twelve and, um, I remember Mary
coming home and I used to, it wasn’t until I think I was
twelve years old that I realized she was my sister. I used
to wonder who this person was who was coming and spending
the summer. And, um, and then John spent, like all of his
time pretty well, in boarding school. And sometimes he’d go
and even during the summer, he was, he was in boarding
school because he, he, um, lost his parents and so, ya, I
think I really admired them because they, you know, really
learned, like they worked hard to relearn everything, every
thing that they missed. Ya, so I think that, it’s
inspiring.
WOMAN They weren’t afraid to pass down the knowledge eh?
BEEP
They weren’t ashamed, like, like a lot of our people (BEEP)
learned to be ashamed of who they were. Ashamed to be
_____. It still goes on now.
GARY What was the expression you used? It seemed to be ...
WOMAN ________. Indian.
I want my kids to be proud like this, that’s why I’ve done a
lot of the things I’ve done. I want them to be proud ... of
who they are.
LORNA I remember hearing when you were, when you were first
starting that school, he was, he would assign you to go and
help the elders.
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WOMAN Ya. Ya.
LORNA I remember hearing about that. Whatever they needed
help with.
WOMAN Ya, we’d be sent out.
LORNA That was part of our way, when you were at that age, to
be of help, to be _______ and that means that, that nobody
has to tell you how to be helpful. You can take the
initiative on your own.
GARY What age does that supposed to come by?
WOMAN About twelve.
LORNA So that was the principle that we wanted to carry on in
the, in the school. Like those values.
... actually trying to write, the language. Trying to put
it into writing?
WOMAN Ya.
LORNA I think we’ll start with, um, Susan, um, commen-,
saying again about, about sending the students out to the
old peoples to be helpful. Say that again.
WOMAN I remember hearing a lot about, uh, when John sent,
sent you out to help the old people with whatever they
needed to be done or, I guess even just to sit there and
visit with them, or chop wood or, and I know Alvin my
brother was saying that and I just heard you say it again
and Fay was saying it so that’s a big part of the
connection, I guess, between the generations and where
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learning would come from, just to watch the old people move
around in their life and what they did.
They were really patient with us. They, they, like, they
never, they never told you to do it, eh? They always, like,
as long as you were around eh, they always showed you by
example.
LORNA That was, um, I think one of the primary principles
that young people had to learn how to do when they reached
adolescence, that, um, the highest value that really, that
people put on, on young people was if you were ____, that’s
what it’s called and to be _____ means to be able to go and
be helpful to somebody so that you are not directed to it so
that you can observe and figure out what would be helpful to
them. See, so they wouldn’t tell you directly what to do
but they would give you cues as to what it is that you
should be doing and so by the time you’re a teenager you’re
power of observation, your power of, um, being able to look
around and to see how things should be done, to look at
systems, see, so if you know that there was dishes, for
example on the table, then you have to know that you need to
wash them, so, you don’t need to be told to do it but you
could just start doing it. So it’s initiating action but,
and directing it from yourself. See that’s the ...
WOMAN Comes, comes from within you then ... somehow you just
know I guess. That it has, what needs to be done or ...
LORNA So that was, I think in the school we were trying to
take those kinds of ideas, you know, and putting them into a
program but, um, the thing, away back then, was, was that we
didn’t , we knew that that’s what we had to do but we didn’t
really understand fully, like, why, you know.
BEEP
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GARY That was 146, no lights.
BEEP
LORNA No I don’t think any, nobody explained it to me. It
was, um, the job that I was given by the Board, the, the
____ Board was to research the language and to help with
developing a writing system for the language so that meant
gathering, gathering words and information and it was, and
it was through doing that, the process of just really
thinking through the meanings of words and the translations
of, of the meaning to English that I began to see that, um,
um, I began to see what was different between the English
language and the English way of doing things that we had
learned and our own way. And so nobody, you know, took me
aside and said, um, and, you know, explained _____ to me.
Really. Because that’s not the natural process when you’re
living life, nobody, um, and it’s, in a way, it’s, um, um,
it’s unreal. You know to do the, the so much explaining
because that’s built right from babyhood, your daily meaning
and the meaning is coming not just from the word itself, but
it’s coming from the relationship that, um, mothers and
fathers have with their children. The relationship, their
language meaning comes from the relationships that they have
with their siblings and other significant people.
Grandparents and in our case, I think the strong influence
still is the relationship between children and aunts and
uncles. And, uh, so that’s how we derive meaning kind of in
the natural process but, um, and over the years, I think
that what the theory of mediated learning helps me to do is
to know, is it gives a guide as to what it is we need to
really fully explain, you know, and it helps me to interpret
what it was that we did in, you know, in our, in our way, in
our societies. And then, and then going back and forth from
that know-, knowledge now and the language helps me to begin
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to build up, I guess, what happened in families and how
knowledge was passed down from one generation to another.
So it’s, it just works, it all works together.
BEEP That’s 146 tail.
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That was 149 tail.
... Ricky? Or Calvin?
This must be Ricky? This must be Calvin?
Sure look alike.
I was wondering because you can see Harvey there.
That looks like a post card.
Mm mm.
That’s it. Oh well.
Fay?
That was my next guess.
She looks more like Lisa.
BEEP
1958.
Mm mm.
Veronica.
Oh.
Ya, with Dad(?). I think when I remember Dad(?), he was
already old. I used to bring ice cream to him. He was like
in this picture here, this one here already.
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Oh ya.
Always sat there and nodded his head.
Cause he was deaf. And he used to, I think, pretend he
was deaf.
He used to always, he used to think he was reading
the paper because, he used to always be looking at the paper and
he didn’t even know how to read.
LORNA We used to, sometimes when I’d go over there, and the
night, at night he used to have a cigarette and then on his
package he’d do numbers. So he knew, he was teaching
himself. This one here, is, um, P_____. His uncle. Dad’s
uncle.
Halley.
See the resemblance.
LORNA Ya, I remember when he used to come to the school to do
story telling. And one of the stories that he told was
about when he was twelve and he joined our grandfather on,
um, the pack train to Squamish. This lady here is, um, Mrs.
Paul Dick, so her husband was the last hereditary chief,
like practicing hereditary chief. This guy’s father,
grandfather was the, um, _______ and remember Hugh Copman,
he’s used to walk beside uh, he used to walk by the house
and we’d all run in the house.
GARY Can you tell who the people are in that, talking about in
the top photograph.
It looks like Barney.
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No, it’s Billy I think. This must be Larry. Or Lloyd.
Double chin’s Lloyd.
This looks like Mary, but if ... that’s true then this one
would have to be your Mom, but that doesn’t look like her.
With that smile see, that’s a Mary smile.
BEEP
That’s Mark’s Mom.
GARY Did you say you were in this one? No.
And thats?
WOMAN Georgina.
GARY Georgina? And who are the kids to the left of that other
photo.
Alv and Lois and Arnold.
And there’s a blond in the window. (LAUGHTER)
That’s Mandad(?)
GARY And with the fish?
WOMAN That’s Mandad.
GARY And that’s your uncle?
WOMAN Yep.
GARY Could you talk a little bit about him, just to kind of
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introduce him. I guess you all knew him.
LORNA Dad is the one who told me the story about, um, the
people and the small pox. He’s, um, he’s, um, people called
him, he is _____, that was his name and, uh, people called
him ______ and I think that, um, I started off calling him
Dad because he was, lived across the street from us and I
spent a lot of time with them and he used to be the one who,
when babies were born, he would give them, the babies, like
a song that he would sing to babies so that, it, they would
become calm. And so I think that probably in all of our
lives, he was, ...
WOMAN Mm mm. I remember that.
LORNA ...he was really significant so when babies were born
one of the earliest things that we used to do would, in the
family, would be to bring our, our children to see him.
And, um, holding up the other end of the stick, is Ma and
she was my father’s sis-, older sister and they were, and
they brought my, my father and Susan, Ross’s grandmother
because their parents died and, uh, so I guess they were the
closest that we had, like to a grand-, to a set of
grandparents. And, um, Dad didn’t ever go to school so he
didn’t speak English or, um, but he knew all of the
traditional ways and I guess we always saw him as such a,
uh, secure person, like and he always knew how to do things
and he always seemed to be able to anticipate and know what
would make you happy, just, even just little actions and so
even if we didn’t talk to one another, that he would, um,
that you always felt included in his, in his life. And, um,
but I think that I was, or we were all, even though we don’t
talk about her as much, I think we were all influenced by,
by Ma too because of her ability to organize and to work so
effortlessly at, you know, at all the things that she used
to do. And I remember always, um, one of the things that I
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noticed later in their life was how well they were able to
communicate with one another without, without language,
without words. Ya. And she’s the one who, when I didn’t
know how to do something or if I was stuck with anything, I
used to go and just sit with her and we’d sit in her porch
for, um, for awhile and then, and even if we weren’t talking
I could think through whatever it was that I needed to do.
And she was really, um ... BEEP ... strong in, um, in that
people had to, had to behave, like appropriately as ________
and you could see it in her face if somebody wasn’t, you
know, wasn’t behaving in that way. So she was very, a
strong person but I know that, um, many people’s lives are
richer because, you know, because we had her ... to guide us
and teach us how to do things. Mm mm. And they worked
really well together as a team.
WOMAN I can still remember when, it must have been (unclear)
and um, I still remember being in her arms and watching her
tongue songs she used to ... I can remember that ... still
being in her arms looking up at her and watching her.
That’s how she put us to sleep.
Ya, getting you, getting you mem-, mesmerized.
Ya.
So I must have came to earlier. I must have came to
earlier.
And there’s Ma eh?
Mm mm.
I didn’t know who she is holding there.
I never even knew that.
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What?
I didn’t grow up knowing that, that was, uh, a very close
relative. Dad Ma_____
Oh really.
And, but I always remember hearing how people always going
over there to visit them.
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TONE
LORNA (Unclear) ... about this guy who, it was, it wasn’t in
Lilloet, I think, I don’t really remember but it sounds to
me that it was from people who lived way up in the upper
valley. Um, towards, uh, I guess Jarvis Inlet, around way
up there.
WOMAN Charlie Mackey talks about that place all the time.
LORNA Ya, cause _____ used to go up there to go, to go to,
um, used to come out of there to go to Sechelt, like and
they’d go, people would travel up that way and then along
the coast to Sechelt, then to Vancouver, but, and then the
other route was southeast and around to New Westminster.
But, um, he was telling me about the man, the, anyway, this,
the people used to live in, like in their family groupings
during the winter time and, um, and so there would be a big
_______ for the, the head man and his family and then there
would maybe be three or four smaller ones around. That were
other, you know, like extended family members would, would
live and, um, so these were winter homes that the _______,
that they would live in. And, um, I don’t really know how
it was, it got spread but, um, the, one winter were, just
started, this man’s family just started dying and, and it
was escalating. Everybody was, was really getting sick and
so the head man told, um, one of the young men who didn’t
seem to be sick to go to the next village, like to the next
group of, to another family who was, like living down, down
the valley, to go there and ask them for help. And, um,
because it was reaching, I guess, a real crisis point and,
um, the number of people who are dying in this family and so
the next morning, this young guy started to, started out on
his way, you know, pretty well in the middle of winter so it
was kind of hard travelling and so, um, I think he must have
had snow shoes and probably following the, following the
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river and he got to the, I guess it was maybe mid morning,
he got to the next ___, a group of _______ and he, when he
got there, he could see some smoke coming out of the, you
know, out of the smoke hole and so he hollered at them to
warn them inside that he was coming but he was really
feeling strange cause there was, it was so quiet and, um,
and when he hollered, he didn’t hear anybody and so he went
up to the top and he hollered again. He looked in and, uh,
and he started going in to the entrance hole and he got down
there and he realized that what had hit them had killed this
whole family, so they were all dead. And so, he knew then
that it was, that it was something that was not, you know,
that really was bad and, um, so he started up the fire again
cause it was still, you know, it was still a bit on and, uh,
and he piled stuff on it and he started to burn and then as
it was burning in there, he kept feeding the fire and then
finally he collapsed the _____ on top of the people and so
he thought, well, I’ll go to the next village and so he took
off again and, um, but he just brought you know, stuff with
him for, you know, cause he thought he was just going to go
to the next one ... and he came to the next family and then
the same thing, it was the same thing. He did the same
thing, collapsed the ________, then went to the next family
and to the next family and there wasn’t anybody and when he
came, I guess it was near here, the, cause see there more,
like there were a lot more down in the, closer to this
valley and already the people knew that something was coming
because they always seemed to sense it beforehand. And this
guy came and he was just sick because of, you know, because
of what he’d seen. So that was, that was the small pox.
The small pox epidemic.
GARY What did he do when he discovered these families? Would he
have buried them or sung song for them or would there have
been something that he would have done or was he just sort
of the messenger at this point?
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LORNA Well he was trying to find somebody would help his
family and, um, if it was just like under normal
circumstances, you know then he would, um, there would be a
ceremony but, um, they must have already sense that it was
contagious, that’s why he was collapsing them and it was so,
um, it was, just made it more urgent because you know, as he
was, I mean it’s a long way from up there to be travelling
in the winter time.
GARY What do you mean, he was collapsing them. I didn’t quite
understand.
LORNA Collapsing them? Just, um ..
WOMAN The people were buried right in the ... in the
lodge.
LORNA He was burying, he was burying the people right in the
lodge, collapsing the, the dome. So he’d start the fire
inside and then, you know, it would weaken the posts and
then he would just collapse them so, animals couldn’t
couldn’t get them.
GARY So would the people in side be burned first?
LORNA Mm mm. And that was not, like that was not our normal
way but you know, it wasn’t normal circumstances that this
man was facing.
GARY So he made the trail down through the valleys. Through many
residences?
LORNA Well there were, later on you know, I found out that
there were 30,000 people, 30,000 Lilloet and you know, like,
and so people in the winter time would spread, like right
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through the whole territory and so they didn’t live, like in
a large, um, group. They, they came together in large
groups in the summer because, you know, the land holds lots
of people and um, and, but in the winter time people spread
out so they spread out to hunt and to trap and you know, do
all of those and also, it was a time to be quiet with your
family and so, people split up. The land could cope easier,
you know, with fewer people in any one area.
WOMAN Did they see the _____ homes up there?
LORNA Ya, they did some filming up there?
GARY Thank you for all the questions ... just so we have
something of Lorna on camera, could you tell her how the
kids are doing at school or a story.
WOMAN I’ll tell you a different one. It’s about Dwayne and
the _____ home. Dwayne took some tourists, they wanted to
go moon light riding on horse, and he said, okay, I’ll take
you guys out to come to the ____ holes, moon light riding.
They were just going on really well, and um, all of a sudden
a cloud went over the moon, pitch dark, couldn’t see nothing
and usually you can trust the horses to find the trail but
it just so happened, this horse got lost and he kept on
trying and his horse kept getting lost so he gave up and he
said, he got off his horse and he went prowling through the
bush trying to find the trail and he bumped into a bear,
nose to nose to a bear. (LAUGHS)
That’s why the horse didn’t want to ...
Ya, the horse got lost cause he could smell the bear. And
goes back again and he gets on his horse and found a
trail ... and he tells the ... it must be the, must be the
ghosts that are getting him lost. He didn’t tell them that
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he bumped into the bear. He didn’t want to worry them.
GARY This will be ambience in the kitchen.
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Production material centres around an interview conducted with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams, Rosa Andrew, and Susan Nelson in Mount Currie. In tape 1, Wanosts’a7 discusses her experience as a student at St. Joseph's Indian Residential School; the interviewees talk about the impact the residential school system has had on survivors and their children; and Wanosts’a7 speaks on how providing mediated learning experience can be a way of breaking the cycle of trauma. In tape 2, Wanosts’a7 talks about integrating indigenous ways of teaching when developing the program at Ts̓zil Community School; and cultural aspects of language revitalization. The interviewees then go through a family photo album and tell stories. The filmed segments of the interview run from 07:52 on tape 1, and continue until 17:20 on tape 2. 14:10 on tape 2 to the end of the interview are silent. Additional sequences can be found proceeding and following the interview, including the scenes in Mount Currie; a S7ístken; and Wanosts’a7 walking through a cemetery. Much of this material does not have corresponding audio.
- In Collection:
- Lil'wat Nation
- Indigenous peoples--Languages
- Ts̓zil Community School
- Education
- Mediated learning experience
- Language revival
- Smallpox
- Ucwalmícwts language
- Psychic trauma--Social aspects
- Cemeteries
- Families
- St’át’imc Nation
- Off-reservation boarding schools
- S7ístkens
- Indigenous peoples
- Indigenous peoples--Education
- Photograph albums
- Camera roll: CR39B
- Sound roll: SR30
- Camera roll: CR40
- Sound roll: SR32
- Camera roll: CR38
- Camera roll: CR39A
- Sound roll: SR29
- Sound roll: SR33A
- Sound roll: SR31
- Camera roll: CR41
- 00:44:25
- 50.31667, -122.71667
- 2 videocassettes : analog, col., Betacam SP
- Lorna Wánosts’a7 Williams Face to Face Media Collection
- Digitized in collaboration with the Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
- Accession Number: 2017-057
- Special Collections Finding Aid: https://uvic2.coppul.archivematica.org/face-to-face-media-fonds
- August 26, 2020 to August 28, 2020
- Originally recorded on 16 mm film and 1/4” reel-to-reel audio later transferred and synced to Betacam SP for use during post-production. Dates on cassettes are believed to reflect date of transfer.Transcripts of the 1/4” sound reels were created by Face to Face Media for use during post-production. These audio transcripts include additional interview segments not found on the videocassettes and have been provided unedited.Digitized by the The MediaPreserve. Access files created by University of Victoria Special Collections and University Archives. Metadata by Matt Innes.
- Rights
- This material is made available on this site for research and private study only.
- DOI
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