George and Winnett Brand interview, Part 01

[Judith Windle interviewing George Brand and Winnett Brand in 1978]

00:00 Judith Windle: [What?] years did you attend as students?

George Brand: '22/'23

JW: Both of you? 

Winnet Brand: Um-hum. 

GB: Yes. 

JW: I see. So that's [when you?]

GB: We didn't. 

JW: Oh you didn't. 

GB: We didn't know each other then. 

JW: Oh you didn't? [inaudible]

GB: Boys didn't speak to the girls [inaudible]. I was afraid to speak to girls.  

WB: Then we both went to teach in the normal school the same year. '47.

GB: '47. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: We hardly knew each other then. 

JW: That's when they went back to Landsdowne wasn't it? 

WB: Second year. They went back in '46\. And we went, were invited back to teach [inaudible]. 

JW: What did you teach when you were up there? 

WB: I taught Early Childhood Education. Teaching how to teach the young children. 

JW: I see. 

WB: [Inaudible] There were very few of us so we were sort of general everything. I was sort of the social
convener and you were, what were you?

GB: Oh I looked after the literary society. 

WB: Yeah. You know it [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: The first year was supposed to be an athletic coach for the basketball team. I didn't care for the job. 

JW: The literary society played a very important part, didn't it?  

GB: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.

WB: Fascinating [inaudible crosstalk] 

GB: I looked after the literary society from the second year I was there. And [...]



WB: [inaudible]

GB: You had [...] a new committee, a committee for each half-term, you see.  We put on a one hour program
each Friday afternoon. Now that was already in force when we were students there. And sometimes you would
get an outside speaker, sometimes a play, sometimes a skit. Talks by the students and so on. And amongst
other things that had changed by the time we went as instructors there was that [...] at the beginning of the year,
now this may have happened only with Mr. English becoming principal, I don't know. But different students in the
morning assembly, we all stood a morning assembly every morning, and there was always some talk or even a
short play or something of the sort, after the Lord's Prayer and the reading of the Scripture, and different people
would take part in that, but [...] near the beginning of the year there was always the opportunity for students to
speak about their own religious affiliation and the churches to which they went, so as to acquaint the out-of-town
students with the different places of worship in town and you see, I don't know whether you are aware but from
the time of building of the Normal School in 1915, there was the government regulation, provincial regulation,
that all the students from a line north and east of [...] Powell River to Hope, you just drew that line, all those had
to come to Victoria, unless they had relatives who lived in Vancouver with whom they could board. So most of
the up-country students came to the Victoria Normal School rather than the [...] rather than the Vancouver
Normal School, which was older, of course. The North Vancouver Normal School dates, I think, from about
1902\. And the [...] this condition [...] situation really [obtained?] almost until 1956, when [...] education, when
teacher education became a function of the university and then gradually broke down. Now there's no such
regulation. Incidentally, in 1922/1923, the students who came from out of town had their return railway fare paid.
And you can look up the old register, which used to be in the registrar's office, and you'll see the amounts paid to
each student. So somebody coming from Fernie got quite a bit of money. But you see that made it easier for
them to, to come. So that, that encouragement was given. 

JW: In the year that you were in the Normal School, '22/'23, were jobs hard to get or were they were fairly simple
to get? 

GB: No. No. No, they were easy but within a year or two conditions changed. 

WB: [Inaudible]

JW: Yeah. I was wondering if this money paid to the students to come down and back would help just get more
teachers [inaudible crosstalk]. 

GB: No. No. No it, the situation was such that teachers were still in short supply, particularly in the outlying
areas. 

WB: I didn't get a job 'til Christmas that year but then I, my sister and I, had been in California with relatives for
the summer and we were late getting back so the jobs were filled and one of my pals in my class [...] I was in
class A because my name began with a C, you see, so she had to go across the, to the Alberta, across the
Alberta border to get a school, a rural school. So there weren't thousands of jobs. 

05:11 GB: No, but there were

WB: [inaudible] You got one eventually. 

GB: No, nobody need go without. 

WB: [inaudible]

GB: You didn't find the situation that later obtained when, girls particularly, who didn't get jobs were working in
Woolworths, as many of them did. But not, not in our year, no,no there were still plenty of jobs. You would get a
list [inaudible], I could have had several different jobs. Although I too was out of town during the time that I
should have been scouting around. I had to work. I went over to Everett because I had a friend there who was
timekeeper on a building. He said, oh come on over here and I'll get you a job, so that was it and then I had to
slip home during one weekend to [arrange?]. 

WB: John [Goff?] was our year at the same time. So was Mr. Johns. We were all in that '22/'23 class. 



GB: Yeah. 

JW: Was it understood at that point that once women got married, that was the end of their teaching career? 

WB: Yes. 

GB: Pretty well. Pretty well. 

WB: In the city, anyway. 

GB: Yes. 

WB: Unless your husband was [an invalid?]. Or a widow. 

GB: I knew of only two women at the time in the Victoria system, three, Mrs. Dixon, three who were teaching and
their husbands were all incapacitated or they were widows. 

WB: And they got less money in those days. There was a scale for women and a scale for men. 

GB: [...] Women got less money, yes. 

WB: Women got less, yeah. 

JW: Well, teaching wasn't a very well-paying job anyway. 

GB: No. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] ten months of the year.

GB: But then again relatively, relative to others it was alright. 

WB: It was better than working in a store. It was [...] there were levels. 

JW: When you got your first job, it was generally thought that you'd go out [of the city?]

WB: [Inaudible crosstalk]

GB: It was sort of understood that you did. And certainly it was, in a sense, encouraged, because the out-of-
country experience was quite different from that of the city. I know, I feel that those who came from Normal
School and went right into the city, as I could have done, incidentally, [...] felt that they, at least I feel, that they
lost something. 

WB: Oh you lost your town life [inaudible]. 

GB: Yes. 

WB: Though, [inaudible] stay the year anyway, but you'll never regret it. And you'll never go out in the country
once you're in the city. 

GB: No. 

WB: Unless there's something of course. 

GB: Not unless you have to. 

WB: Yeah.

GB: I went, first of all, I was interested in going up to the [..] area out of Prince Rupert, but the registrar, the
department said, no Mr. Brand I would suggest you take this one, and that was at Ganges in Salt Spring Island,



so I went to Ganges, you see. And I came into the city after that. And then later on when I was at university,
during the middle period, I went both to Port Alberni and Quesnel. I was at Quesnel for two months and Port
Alberni for one month, so. The out-of-town experience was very valuable. 

JW: When you were attending Normal School, were there any instructors who really stood out in your mind?
Who really, you felt [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: Oh yes. 

WB: They were all good, I felt. 

GB: They were, yes. 

WB: You know, we were taught just to, in our ordinary school days, you looked up to your teachers. And I found
the Normal School people extremely [...] I might not today, but I did then. 

GB: Well [...] they, they were traditional, there's no question about that, but [...] I had been working for two years
before I went to Normal School. I had been working in an office. And [...] when I went to Normal School, I was so
agreeably surprised to find the, the change or the, not the change so much as the difference between their way
of handling a subject and what I recall from my elementary school days. I mean, there was a good deal of
emphasis upon the meaning behind the thing. Now [...], one thing I would say that was lacking perhaps was
insistence on any attempt to teach youngsters to think for themselves, that was not emphasized and still is not
emphasized much in schools today. Not as much as it might be, and in my own teaching perhaps I didn't do, well
I know I didn't do what should have been done. But the two that stand out in my mind were the principal Mr.
MacLaurin, after whom the MacLaurin Building is named, at my suggestion and input, and [...] the other one was
Mr. Denton, who became principal after Mr. MacLaurin. They both subsequently obtained doctorates. [...] He
was probably the most colourful individual of the whole lot.

10:00 WB: He didn't like women so I only [inaudible] him very well. 

GB: He didn't like women. 

WB: He just hated women. 

GB: We were 65 men all

WB: All one class

GB: Sitting in the aisles and everything else, but [...] he had worked on a banana ship between [...] the West
Indies and New York and Boston, you see. And he knew his geography very, very well but he was as colourful
as you like, rough as a diamond with [...] you know tattoos on each arm and so on. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] I  never saw them. 

GB: Yes. Oh well, he was there. 

WB: He would just sit down and look at us like [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: [Inaudible crosstalk] We, we liked him. 

WB: [Inaudible crosstalk]

GB: And he afterwards, he afterwards collaborated with [...] his opposite number in the Vancouver Normal
School and produced a geography which was used for a number of years. I had even to use it in high school. It
was the only text, Denton and Lord. 

JW: Didn't Mr. MacLaurin also write an English text?

GB: No, he wrote a grammar along with Campbell. 



WB: Dr. Campbell [inaudible]

GB: That was only [...] that wasn't his forte really. But his teaching of arithmetic was so methodical.

 WB: Yeah.

GB: I would say that the only [...] criticism one might have is that you were given a method whereby to teach, I
recall very well his method of suggesting that we teach highest common factor and the lowest common multiple,
about which the youngsters in the school don't know anything today, if you ask them what the highest common
factor means they couldn't tell you. 

WB: They would take out their little machine.

GB: Some of the teachers couldn't tell you. But I recall his method, which was almost foolproof. But the
impression you got, you see, was that once you did this, then everybody would know. Well of course, everybody
didn't know. Everybody didn't learn. That was the impression you got, you see. It was so foolproof.

WB: He was a wonderful man. 

GB: But he, he, he was excellent. But a traditionalist. 

WB: Well, everybody was then. 

GB: And [...] oh yes, even then he was a traditionalist and you had to hew to the line everything. If you were late
in the morning, we were all men, some of them returned veterans from World War I, you went into his office and
explained why you were late. Now, there was never any quibble about it, but you had to do this. 

WB: You missed a day absent, you

GB: You went and reported. 

JW: He was very fair to everybody, wasn't he? 

GB: Oh fair. Absolutely. 

WB: [inaudible] Good churchman [inaudible] 

GB: Very, very fair. And I recall at the last day when it came to the break-up, what they did to give you a little
certificate indicating you had passed, just some little sheet. 

WB: It was on your desk, turned over so, you know, imagine you had sat down with trepidation.

GB: Oh well, he had

WB: [inaudible] phone, I would have to phone my mother. 

GB: He, he handed ours out. 

WB: Oh no, ours were on the desk. See, each teacher did it [inaudible].

GB: And he had told me the day before because I had had to do something in the [bank?]. So he said now
there's no doubt about this. But [...] 

WB: Oh. 

GB: I recall his saying, well now [...] he said there's some of you about whom I'm not altogether satisfied. But the
department needs men. Therefore you're all [good?]. 



WB: [Inaudible] would like that [inaudible].

GB: Yeah. 

JW: Did most everybody graduate that year with their certificate?

GB: No.

WB: No. 

GB: No.

JW: There were some who didn't make it?

GB: No, there were always a few who didn't. 

WB: [Inaudible] Yeah, for good reasons I think. 

GB: But all the men did. Now, there were one or two who, you know, were just so-so. 

[Inaudible crosstalk]

GB: The department needed men. There were very few men, you see. Mostly women. And [...] that was it. 

JW: I was gonna ask, was there a home economics class  [inaudible]? 

GB: Yes.

WB: Yes. And the men too. 

JW: And for the men too? 

WB: Well, that was [inaudible]

GB: Well, ours was a sort of an extra to help out those of us who might have to [batch?]

WB: [inaudible]

JW: He learned the basics, to

GB: Oh, make sandwiches and [...] boil eggs and make [inaudible] 

WB: [Inaudible] great favours. 

GB: We, we didn't do very ma[...], we didn't have very many [inaudible crosstalk]

WB: We had a full course. 

GB: But we didn't have a full course. It was just thrown in as an extra. 

JW: What was done in the full course?

WB: Well, the usual Home Ec that we'd had in the school. How to make bread. I had a [inaudible] a great big
cookbook [...] The sheets were mimeographed and they weren't convenient, they were big long, that's all they
had probably then, and we had to make fancy covers for it. I just gave mine away to a niece recently. 

GB: Oh, salads, salads 

WB: [inaudible] muffins and things of the day. And then we were responsible, certain girls in the class each



week, to make great vats of coffee which the students could buy at six [ticks?] for a quarter. 

GB: Cocoa. Cocoa, dear.  

WB: Cocoa, I'm sorry. 

GB: Cocoa. 

WB: Not coffee. Oh no, no. Cocoa. We made cocoa. Cocoa. 

GB: And we bought it. Five cents a cup at lunchtime, you see. 

WB: Yes. And our friends we'd give two cups [...] Miss MacFarland, [inaudible] called Lady Mac, we didn't call
her that but 

15:02 GB: Miss MacFarland. 

WB: Miss MacFarland, she was called Lady Mac. 

GB: Oh, she was a dear. 

WB: She was very nice looking [woman?]. 

GB: We all liked her. 

WB: Yeah. 

JW: What was the Home Economics Room like? There were big stoves in there weren't there?

WB: [Inaudible crosstalk] the far end of the building. 

GB: Upstairs and to the northwest corner of the build [..] of the [...] of the [...] Young building. 

WB: It was the same as I'd had in public school. There were counters all the way around and you had gas. Gas
was piped in. And you had a little burner or some such thing. And I think there was a big oven, I've forgotten. But
you know the usual Home Ec stuff you learned [inaudible]

JW: Were you ever able to get in and do anything in the little apartment that was in behind?

WB: Oh that was the model home. 

JW: Um-hum. 

WB: Yes. We were taught how to set a table properly and I remember sitting around while someone, and I
thought [...] she had asked somebody, somebody else to do something and the girl gave me a dig [inaudible]
and said, your [inaudible] she wants you to know where to put the knife or something. It was that sort of stuff,
you know. They wouldn't stand for it today. And we learned a little bit about babies, I think, you know? How to
handle them and what not. 

JW: Did you do sewing?

WB: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. 

GB: The girls had a bigger course than we did. You see, the corresponding thing would have been for the men to
have done some manual training. Woodwork. But we didn't get any.

WB: [Inaudible]

GB: For the reason that there were too many of us. 



WB: Yeah. 

GB: We were 65.

JW: And they kept you in one class rather than splitting you up? 

GB: Yes, yes. 

WB: They had more [inaudible]

GB: Well, they didn't have the staff to do anything else and in between they had the rows of desks

WB: Screwed down [inaudible]

GB: [Inaudible] opened up, you know. And they had boards made that just fitted over with chairs in so, my name
being B I was near the beginning. Bagshaw, Bass, [Batrick?], Birch, Brand, you see. I was number five so I sat
[inaudible]. Opposite me was a fellow [inaudible] I think, or something of the sort, who had to sit on a chair with
this board. 

WB: They carried these boards, you'd see the boys going in the hall with their boards, you see [inaudible]

GB: They carried them into the auditorium for convenience because they were handy upon which to write. 

WB: Yeah.

GB: You see, certain lectures we got in the auditorium, we got our lectures on history in the auditorium, Mr.
Denton gave us history.

WB: We got music in there too. 

GB: And then Miss MacFarland gave us the [...] health in, in the auditorium. Well, these fellows would carry in
their boards. I didn't have a board to carry so I had to manage just with the ordinary [...] the ordinary loose-leaf.
But it was a happy year. 

WB: Yeah. The nicest school year I've had, I've always said.

GB: The nicest year [...] the nicest year ever I could have. Nothing equaled it. I remember at the end [...] oh most
of the people were in tears, you see. I said to Mssrs. McLaurin and Denton, you know I'd willingly come back
next year. 

WB: [inaudible]

GB: I would. Had I been able to, I would have gone back the next year [...] I was, I was so delighted. 

WB: Still have friends that I made during that year. 

GB: Yes. Now one thing, we had the little gardens in the front, but the tennis courts were made. The tennis
courts were [...] just at the east end of the building

WB: Where they are now, I think.  

GB: In front of the pergola. There was a pergola there. Well, that was tennis courts. 

WB: That was all finished in lawn then. But not this side. 

GB: Beautiful tennis courts. And we had tennis tournaments in the fall. And they ran for about two or three
weeks. Also [...[ I don't know whether you're aware there are two little plunge pools in the basement. Well, they
were operating then. We after, after games we could go and plunge, you see. We, we used those. 



WB: We had male instructors for [inaudible crosstalk] Strathcona has.

GB: We had army instructors for phys-ed and Strathcona cross training. 

JW: Did you have any school teams? 

WB: Oh yes, yes, yes. 

GB: Yes, we had, had a school hockey team, which didn't play anything other than [...] other than [...] friendly
games. But, you see these fellows who came from the interior were all expert skaters and [...] they, they played
very well. I remember going down to the old arenas [inaudible]. But we had a rugby team that won the
[Hayland?] Cup in the intermediate league. I have a, I think I can show you a picture. 

WB: [Inaudible crosstalk] pictures of all those teams

JW: Who did you play in the rugby?

GB: The James Bay Athletic Association and [...] the Wanderers. 

JW: Were you on the team that year?

GB: Yes. I was on, I was on the rugby team. 

WB: He does the ice hockey. 

GB: [inaudible crosstalk]

JW: The ice hockey would practice downtown in the arena wouldn't they? 

WB: Oh, no no no. 

GB: No, it was the old Willows Arena. 

JW: Oh, the Willows Arena. 

WB: An old shed of a place. 

GB: Yes, but

WB: [inaudible] the ladies' basketball with their bloomers and things. 

GB: But they, they weren't in any league. 

JW: Were you on any of the athletic teams? 

WB: No, I wasn't an athlete. No, I was on, on the [...] [inaudible] literary, we had to do the putting together of this
thing in a little monthly. 

20:07 JW: Literary society. 

WB: Yes, see there's the athletic executive. 

JW: I'm seeing drama club, here and here. 

WB: No, no. [inaudible]

GB: Oh I thought I [inaudible] 



WB: There, see I was on the annual staff. 

JW: On the staff. 

WB: Quite a few of those are still living. Some people here. We see them. 

GB: We see them. We see a number of them occasionally. 

JW: Did you have a sponsor, a teacher who [...] helped you do this?

WB: Um-hum, Um-hum. There was a teacher usually. 

JW: Who was your sponsor for this? 

WB: I don't know, who was our literary sponsor? They had a [inaudible]. That's one I found. That's Mr [Sounds?]
of [Sounds?] Undertaking [inaudible]. He died not long ago at 91 or 2\. Look what a young man he was there. His
son's now, I taught his son in elementary school now he's [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: I think probably Mr. Freeman would be the sponsor of the literary society. I wasn't on the executive, I don't
know. But another thing you, you did too that [...] the amount of practice teaching we has was infinitesimal. We
taught one lesson a week, that was all. And after having taught one lesson a week you went out into your school
and you taught all day. But you were able to do it [inaudible]

WB: [inaudible crosstalk]

JW: How soon after you started the Normal School were you let out to practice teach?

GB: Oh, about the second or third week. You went one week, one week to the room where you were going to
teach the following week and you observed the teacher teaching. The next week you went back and taught a
lesson. And some of the lessons were pretty tough. I remember my first lesson was in a grade eight class in
Canadian History. Review the conditions leading up and teach the terms of the Quebec Act 1774\. Well, I, my
Canadian history was a little on the weak side so you had to do a lot of preparation. So you had to go to your
own, you had to go your [...], the instructor in that subject for lesson help. I don't think he gave me any, this was
Denton. And then after [...] we went on Friday after, we went Friday mornings always, the men did. And then the
next Wednesday you went to this same instructor [...] in whose subject you had taught and you lined up outside
his office

WB: Knees quivering

GB:  and you got your criticism from the teacher, you see. And you waited. So there was a whole line-up of you
waiting. 

WB: My first lesson was North [ward?] school in the principal's office on percentage. Imagine, in my first lesson I
was only seventeen. Yes, well. I was only seventeen. And [...] [inaudible] I got up and did it. And [...] I went after,
it ended up being, the man came in to check, I think it was Mr. Denton. He sat down there and I went after to see
and he said, oh I didn't pay any attention, I really didn't come in to see you. I came to see somebody else. After I
had gone through all this misery and horror. 

GB: Yes, well they [...] the first lesson I taught [...] was in Bob [McGuiness?] room at Oaklands School, grade
eight. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: He, he had taught me too, you see. And [...] Mr. McLaurin came in

WB: A very nice man. 

GB: I can remember, he, he was very complimentary. He said, now Mr. Brand [...] there's one little thing I would
mention to you. And I hadn't used an ampersand up on the board you see. So McGuiness told me after, George,



I, I wouldn't have put that down but McLaurin had mentioned it to me so I had to put it [...] These were the little
things you remember. 

JW: The criticism you got from your instructors afterwards was pretty helpful, wasn't it? 

GB: Yes, on the whole it was. 

WB: We never saw it, they just read them to us. We never ever saw them. 

GB: Oh, I saw them. 

WB: Occasionally they might let you have them. 

GB: Oh, I read them occasionally. 

WB: No, they didn't think much of ladies in those days, you see. So they [...] Mr. Brand's often telling me about
what Mr. so-and-so told him. I said, he didn't tell us anything like that, he just used to glare at us, you know. 

JW: Did the girls have a favourite instructor who seemed [...] so them? I've often heard of Mr. Freeman. 

WB: Oh, he was a dear, yes. Mr. Freeman was a dear, yes. 

GB: He was a dear, but he, he wasn't 

WB: He wasn't strong. 

GB: He wasn't the most effective teacher. Actually, what happened, he was principal of a high school up in
Armstrong, and he had lost two sons in the war and that just broke him up.

WB: He was a dear. 

GB: But he was a lovely man. But he was no instructor. 

JW: He used to take people on, the classes on nature walks 

GB: [inaudible crosstalk]

25:00 WB: [inaudible crosstalk] go where, where the Camosun is now. We hopped the fence and he planned a
little snake and it would go in his pocket. 

GB: Yes, well you see it was all wild flowers on that path. 

WB: Beautiful.

GB: Over to Foul Bay Road. 

WB: It was there when we were teaching at the normal school too.

GB: There was no Foul Bay Road or [...] Henderson through in those days. No, no. We would walk. And where
they [...] oh yes, the Uplands Golf [Court?], called Uplands Golf Course was then in operation. 

WB: That's Mr. Freeman. A nice, kind man. 

GB: A big, heavy man. 

WB: So nice. 

JW: What about Mr. [DeNell?]? Was he there?



WB: Yes. I had Mr. DeNell. Yes.

GB: Oh yes. 

WB: His daughter was there the same year as [inaudible].

GB: Mr. DeNell was an old Englishman who had been taught in manual arts in England. 

WB: That's Mr. DeNell there. I, I liked him so much. 

GB: Most of the manual arts people of that time had been trained in England, you see. There wasn't much in
Canada. Nothing in British Columbia, of course. 

JW: All the instructors were imports weren't they, at that time?

GB: Well, the instructors for manuals arts were all imports. Maybe from Eastern Canada, many of them from
England. 

WB: He taught us penmanship too. MacLean writing was just coming in vogue then [inaudible]. 

GB: See Binns, Binns came from England. [Ferry?] came from England. [Donal?] came from England. [...] I don't
know [...] I had a fellow, George J. what was his name, Mckin, Mc, Mc, [....] Mc something else. He came from
Eastern Canada I remember. But there were none locally. 

WB: John [Goff?] taught manual training. 

JW: I was wondering about this MacLean method of writing. Were you taught it when you were in the normal
school? 

WB: That's where I first came in contact with it. And I taught it later myself. 

GB: Yes. Yes.

JW: Did you ever meet Mr. MacLean? 

WB: Oh very, he was a very good friend of ours. 

GB: We knew him well. 

JW: Did he come over to the normal school when you were there?

GB: Yes. 

JW: Yes, to

WB: To put on a show. He was a great magician, you know. He was president of the Magic Circle in Vancouver
and he was the funniest fellow. And the, the students just loved him when he came. He was just [...] he'd throw a
little hand, he wrote with, he cleaned the board with both hands somehow or another and he'd demonstrate,
talking all the time. Just died a year ago, didn't he?

GB: Yes, yes. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] he was a darling. 

GB: Yes, but he, he took up this MacLean method of writing quite a while after he had been teaching. He was
principal of [George Day?] school before he went to the model school. He went to the model school here. The,
the model school consisted of two rooms, one at each end. One for the more primary grades, the other for the
higher grades, you see. He was principal there. Then he went to the Vancouver Normal as an instructor in the
normal school. And [...] in the meantime he had developed his, he'd studied his writing. 



WB: He made a lot of money with that right across Canada. 

GB: Yes, oh he must, he must, he must have made a mint on that. 

WB: He was in great demand [inaudible] demonstrating. 

GB: Yes, yes. But he was a comical little fellow, an entertainer. You see he would even go out to the [...] to the
[...] Oakalla to entertain the prisoners. And so on. 

JW: Huh.

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] nice little man.

GB: Full of jokes, full of jokes. But the students just loved it. He would come over on a Friday for a Friday
afternoon literary society, you see. 

WB: Or a party. 

GB: And of course after the [...] performance was through [...] well you'd stay for an evening performance as well
but everybody was asking him to sign their autograph. 

WB: Because he had beautiful writing. 

GB: So, H.B. MacLean, H.B. MacLean, Henry MacLean, yeah. 

WB: That wasn't his signature he told us that he used on his cheques. 

GB: It could be copied [inaudible] 

JW: The model schools were up at the normal school when you were learning. 

GB: Yes. 

JW: Did you get a chance to teach in them or did you just observe?

WB: No, some people taught but obviously everyone couldn't. 

GB: No, there were only the two. 

WB: See, they had three grades or four grades in each section. 

GB: Yes, yes. 

WB: My very dear friend Marian James taught there. She's since died. 

GB: Yeah. 

WB: [inaudible] Victoria [soup kitchen?]. I never taught there. 

GB: I never taught there. And [..] there were only [...] two schools in the city that we used at the time and that
was Oaklands and North Ward. They were the only two. We didn't go to any other schools. And the teachers
there were more or less hand-picked because of the fact that students went there. So the [...] Oaklands, North
Ward and the model school were the only schools that were used. I, I never happened to go to [inaudible]

WB: I think they used [...] Banks Street for some primaries. 

GB: Did they? I don't recall that. 



WB: I never went there. 

GB: No. But another thing too, you see [...] Denton was the man who was maybe more enterprising that the
others. He would sometimes want to demonstrate a lesson in history so he would bring in a group from the
model school, put them on the platform and teach them there, you see. Demonstration lessons [...] 

JW: Ok. 

30:00 GB: When we were [...] when we went as instructors in the normal school, by that time [...] the practice
had developed of having demonstration lessons either in a school when you'd bus the whole group of students
down to a given school and teach the, a class, a whole class, maybe in the auditorium of the school. Then when
the numbers got too big for that, we would bus a group from the school up to the normal [...] school auditorium
and teach them. [Mrs. Brandon?] probably did, more than anybody else [..] there, demonstrating methods of
teaching. Then after the lesson was through and the youngsters were out the road, we would have a discussion
for maybe an hour, pointing out what was done, why it was done and so on. And those were, were really quite
helpful [...] What happened sometimes, of course, is that, you know, each teacher varies in his/her way and
you'd find some students trying to ape the method of the teacher without being able to pull it off because they,
they didn't have the personality or the experience or anything else but, again they saw what was done. They
could follow the thing logically through. 

JW: The normal school year really did teach you everything that possibly could [inaudible crosstalk]

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] 4 years as they do now. 

GB: Oh well, as far as, as far as methods of teaching are concerned, there's no comparison between what it did
and what the faculty of education does. The faculty of education can't compare as far as the ordinary handling of
a class is concerned. They just, there's no comparison. 

WB: The normal school is really a training school.

GB: It's a training school. 

WB: Now it wouldn't work as it did then [inaudible]. Maybe some parts would. 

GB: Well, maybe it, maybe it should be made to work. You see I was one who, at the time when there was talk of
changing the normal school over and putting teacher training under the department, was not in favour of granting
university credit for the normal school end of the work because I didn't think it was university-type work and still
don't, frankly. I don't think students should be given credit for a methods course. You can't examine on it, you
have to wait to see what the student does when he gets out. But [...] as I say, no comparison at all. None
whatever. 

JW: When you were attending normal school there wasn't much of a social life, was there?

GB: Well, yes.

WB: Well, there was but it was a different kind of social life. We formed a club. There were all some enterprising
people and there were some in the men's class who were pretty enterprising so they formed a club. And we had
dances downtown in the top of what was the Campbell Building, you know the one that's been torn down?

JW: Um-hum. 

WB: And there was a conservative club up there, it had nice rooms and we would hold periodic dances there. It
was nothing to do with the normal school. 

JW: It was just your friends. 

WB: Yes, it was only normal school people who were there and their guests. 

GB: Yes, yes. But we had parties. 



WB: We had parties [inaudible]

GB: I remember a Halloween party was really a good one. 

WB: But you see, the principal was against smoking and [...] I guess some other things too but that didn't affect
too many of us 'cause we were only seventeen a lot of us and smoking wasn't a problem. No woman smoked
that I knew of in those days.

GB: And then further more, you had your work to do [...] you had homework to do so you were kept busy.

WB: Oh, you were always making bird books or animal books or samplers or

GB: Or, yes, or copying or studying the notes you got, we got notes galore. 

WB: Oh yes. 

GB: And you studied them so that you could handle the stuff, and we had, we had frequent, fairly frequent tests,
you know, to see how you were proceeding and [inaudible]

JW: You were a local boy weren't you?

GB: Yes. 

JW: So you knew people. Mrs. Brand, were you from Victoria?

WB: Um-hum. Oh yes. 

JW: Well, did you get to know people from out of town? 

WB: Oh yes. 

GB: Oh sure. As a class you were a family. A unit. 

JW: Yes. 

WB: You see [inaudible]

GB: I knew every one of the fellows intimately. And [...] occasionally met them after I went on the staff and used
to travel through the province. 

WB: We'd meet them throughout the province. 

GB: So I'd meet them, oh so-and-so here is a fellow. For instance [...] a fellow who became principal of the high
school in Pentiction, Dudley [Pritchard?], I used to see him nearly every year. 

WB: They always wanted you to come over for dinner [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: Yeah. Another fellow Crowley was [...], with whom I boarded at UBC for a while, taught in Princeton and
[Lumer?], who, who is now here, who, there's one you could go, she could go to. 

WB: [inaudible crosstalk] Yes,[Clare Lumer?] 

GB: [Clare Lumer?]. 

JW: I spoke with [inaudible] 

WB: Have you? [inaudible]



GB: Oh yes. Well, [Lumer?] was our year, you see. Here, he was vice-principal up at Nelson. 

WB: Yes, he was an out-of-town boy. 

GB: He was out-of-town. 

JW: There were all these out-of-towners, they had to board here, didn't they?

WB: Yes, yes they had some experiences I can

GB: They, they had to board. There was no, no option but boarding was easy. 

35:01 WB: And they worked for a board, a lot of the girls [inaudible]

GB: We, we had a great big long list of boarders and not everybody that wanted boarders could get them. You
know, people took in boarders in those days. 

WB: Yeah.

GB: And nobody could afford to have a little apartment of their own and [...] 

WB: No. Well, one girl sat behind me, I think her name was [Cowan?], see I was Coupland, yeah, the best
[account?] came from Summerland, and she lived on five dollars a week. Five dollars a week. She had a little
room on [...] [Belford?] Street, somewhere in there. 

GB: Yeah. 

JW: Was there a tuition fee? To get in?

WB: No. 

GB: No, no, no, no, no. 

WB: Later there was. But not then. They were encouraging people. 

GB: No, no. They pretty nearly paid you to come. As I say, they paid your railway fare, you know. 

WB: Those who needed it. 

JW: What about your books, were they given to you as well? 

WB: No, no. 

GB: Yes, your books were bought for you.

WB: Well, not all. No. 

GB: What books? We didn't buy any books. No dear, we didn't buy any books. 

WB: They gave us all a free textbook such as the readers. 

GB: They gave you all the textbooks and that's all you needed. 

WB: I think I had to buy [psychology?]. 

GB: And as far as the, you see, we had no books on the methods of history, the methods of geography [...] no
books on psychology even. 

WB: I had to buy a Lady of the Lake or something. 



GB: We had a few lectures in psychology. But no texts. You just depended on your notes. Or you could read on
your own. They had a little library. 

JW: Was that very useful, that little library that was up there?

WB: No, not very. 

GB: Well, it, it was for a lesson, you know when you need to look up something for a lesson. 

WB: Something about Africa or something. It was small. 

GB: Yes, yes. You see you would get [...] you would have to teach a lesson. I recall one lesson I had to teach on
Yugoslavia. Well I [...], Yugoslavia had just been developed. I knew geography pretty well, but I didn't know
anything about Yugoslavia. You see, this was 1922, and Yugoslavia didn't come into being 'til 1919/1920 so you,
you got a little bit of information about Yugoslavia, there was very little to learn, you see. 

WB: You had to pay your own car fare up there up to [inaudible] number 10, we lived over there, I did. 

GB: Yeah, you paid your own car fare. But most of us rode bikes, you see. A lot 

WB: Yeah they biked.

GB: A lot of the fellows, well I rode a bike all the time 

WB: They wouldn't be seen dead on one of those today. [Inaudible] a car. 

GB: Except, except on the day when you went teaching because you put on your good clothes that day. 

WB: Oh yes. 

GB: Oh, you had to dress up. 

WB: And everybody knew you were going to teach because you'd have a stuffed bird and you had some crazy
piece of [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: But then, you see, everybody dressed properly all, well anyhow, the boys all wore a collar and tie, there was
never anything else. But you put on especially good suit when you went to teach. Yeah. 

WB: Or the final banquet, you know downtown, and all. 

GB: Yeah. 

JW: Where was that held?

WB: [...] It's where Eaton's have their furniture now. That was Chamber of Commerce Hall. 

GB: Chamber of Commerce, Chamber of Commerce Hall. 

WB: That was a hall for rent. They had a banquet and they didn't have a dance then but other people had them. 

GB: We entertained, we entertained, we entertained all the critic teachers, you see, all those, the teachers of
Northward, Oaklands and the [...] model school. 

WB: They were at [dances?] were they? I don't remember them being there at all. 

GB: Don't you?

WB: No [inaudible]. 



GB: Well, well, well, I remember very well and I have to give a talk there unfortunately. And [...] we, some of us
were deputed to take in one of the teachers. I said, alright, I'll take in Miss Wallace, this was Etta Wallace. 

WB: Oh yeah, you knew her. 

GB: I knew her so I took her in. Yeah. 

WB: We, they used to have teas and special dos in the years following for all the critic, as they call them,
teachers. They'd have a nice tea or give them tickets to the annual performance of the drama club. 

GB: Oh yes, when we became teachers, we [...] we gave them all tickets to the [...] the annual concert, you see. 

WB: That was a big deal. We had a big annual concert. 

GB: That was a three night, three night affair because, you know, we covered the whole city. And then [...] after
[...] later on in the normal school days, towards the end anyway, I was looking after the placing of students and
[...] I'd get a list from the school board of the staff of every [...] every [...] school in the city. Then I'd have to go up
to the school board to meet the municipal inspector or the district superintendent, as he later became, and find
out to which teachers I shouldn't send students because, you know, somebody was having a little bit of a
problem, somebody had been sick for while and shouldn't have, or this one was new and you better not send
anybody there, then all the rest [inaudible]. 

WB: You've seen this one of the school? Look, look, look at them now [inaudible]. 

JW: Yes. 

WB: So these gardens were all down there, but look [inaudible]

JW: Were the rose arbors down there when you were at [inaudible crosstalk]

WB: These trellises [inaudible] the tennis courts. 

GB: The trellis, the upper trellis was there. That's, that's where the tennis courts were, just in front of that, you
see. 

WB: That's where my office was, right there [inaudible] 

40:00 JW: It was in the front of the building, was it? Down in the east? 

WB: Yes. 

GB: Up, you were up above me, weren't you? 

WB: Yes. You were there. 

GB: I had the principal's office. 

WB: Yeah, I was in

JW: Was there a fireplace in there?

GB: Yes. 

WB: Yes I had a fireplace. They took it out during the time I was there. I was, oh I was brokenhearted when they
came to take it out.

GB: I remember when Mr. MacLaurin was there he used to have a fire going. 



WB: Yes, it was the heat. 

JW: Why did they take them out, do you know? 

WB: Oh, you know, some crazy idea the building, [down the department that lost heat or something but I mean
open there?]. But during the, when this building was a hospital my office was for terminal cases. 

JW: Oh dear. 

WB: Big enough to take one bed. Upstairs [inaudible]. 

GB: Yes, the hospital really [...] upset the building quite a bit. I went there to have my tests. I joined the Air Force,
you see. And I went up there to have my medical [...] I didn't know my way around at all because they had
partitions everywhere. 

JW: They put a [...] an elevator in there too, during the war. 

WB: Oh yes. They had to yeah, to

JW: Did you ever use that later on [since?] doctors? 

WB: Well, listen, the students weren't allowed to use it. We or the janitors were allowed to use it to haul up any
stuff [inaudible crosstalk]. 

GB: I don't remember, I don't think I ever used the thing. 

WB: Not just personally to get to the top, no. 

GB: I never bothered with it. I'd forgotten there was an elevator. 

JW: How long did you teach up at the normal school?

WB: Well I taught [...] from 

GB: '47 [1947]

WB: '47  to '69 [1947-1969]. That was part, that was also college and also university too. 

GB: Well '47 to '56 [1947-1956] was normal school. Then '56 to '62 [1956-1962] was Victoria College. And then
'62 [1962] on to the time we retired, '69 [1969], was [...] university. 

JW: Did you find it a strain or, or a real difference in that transition period when it stopped being the normal
school and was Victoria College?

GB: Well it was no strain. There was a difference, alright. 

WB: Different but there was no strain. 

GB: However, we still held onto some of the characteristics but they have all gone now because, you see, one of
the [...] requirements of anybody that went into the normal school is that he had been a successful teacher of a
period of years. Now there was no particular period laid down but it was sort of understood that maybe twelve
years was a decent period. Well, once [...] teacher education was handed over to the university, that just went by
the board because you wanted in some specialist who'd never been in a classroom, you see. So that was the
difference. Whereas in normal school days you knew that everybody who was [...] teaching had had classroom
experience and could draw on that experience. Now they can't. Some may have lectured in a previous university
but there are several of them who've never been in a classroom other than as a sort of an observer.

WB: [inaudible] could ask your teacher. We shared the building with Victoria College for a, well almost a, well the
year we were there, the year before they had come. There was a little bit of trouble sometimes there. 



GB: Yes. 

WB: You know, the college people didn't know that we owned the building, you see, we were Department of
Education. Or they'd throw snowballs and you know that sort of a thing. 

GB: Yes, so it was a little bit [inaudible crosstalk]

WB: There was friction there between the [sides?]

GB: And of course the principals of the two institutions didn't get on well together, you see, so that didn't help
matters. 

JW: I've heard that the difference in the students was also very important. 

GB: Oh yes. You see, the college students could smoke and do what, but we didn't allow them to smoke in our
end, no siree. 

WB: [inaudible] in the rooms or anything. 

GB: And we didn't allow them to use our telephone. We had a telephone for our students and if we found one of
them using our telephone 

WB: They would call long-distance, you see. 

GB: We'd chase, we'd chase them off. 

JW: Which end was the Normal school in? 

GB: They […] the east end. 

JW: East end. 

GB: And then every year there was a battle over what rooms could be used. This was between the two principals
because the Normal school was increasing in numbers, you see. As was the college. But […] we used to like it
once the college year was through and we had the building to ourselves. We didn't have them bothering us. 

JW: 'Cause you went on a few more months. 

WB: Yes [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: Yes, we went on. We went on nearly to the end of June. Yep. 

WB: Never think of it anymore. 

GB: No, no. [inaudible] however there was no friction between faculty and faculty. 

WB: Oh no [inaudible] 

GB: We got on well. We knew all the […] college people.

WB: They were teachers too, a lot of them. 

GB: Knew them by name […]

WB: [Hickman], Wallace. All those. 

GB: We shared a sort of a little lounge with them but it was the two principals who didn't hit it particularly well. 



WB: Both gone, long gone. 

GB: Yeah, both gone. 

JW: Did you find a difference in the students themselves once the Normal school was phased out? Were they
less serious? 

44:51 GB: Well, it happened very gradually and happened as a result, I would say, primarily of the sorts of
courses they had to take, you see. No longer was it a merely a training year. It was partially an academic year
and partially a professional year and […] the fact that they had these college instructors who were […] some of
them wild and some of them erudite and everything in between, you see, had an effect on the students, yes.
Formerly, for example, in normal school that is, one of the requirements of teacher training always was that for
every lesson you taught, you prepared a lesson plan. Well, in normal school  days you could bat anybody down
who didn't have a lesson plan and he knew, she knew, that this lesson plan had to be produced. 

WB: And prepared, that was the thing, preparation [inaudible crosstalk]. 

GB: Preparation, part of your preparation. This was an indication you had prepared your lesson. And again, in
normal school days, perhaps there was an emphasis upon every lesson being a tidy, neat little package. Now,
when you got into the university area, that went by the board. Gradually, there's still an attempt to keep it going.
They still have to prepare plans but not the tidy jobs that ours were. No. 

WB: [Inaudible]

GB: And as I've said before and I, I can't emphasize enough, as far as the training goes, the handling of the
classroom, there's absolutely no comparison. But even the B.C.T.F. now, I feel, wouldn't want the normal school
training, tidy way of doing things because every teacher has to use his/her own way. Now, I recall being up once
in Trail speaking to the district superintendent who was then there, telling me about a certain young woman who
was teaching up in Rossland. And he had gone into the room and […] didn't care at all for her reading, teaching
of reading. And he said to her, now Miss so-and-so, were you not taught at normal school to do this or that or the
next thing? And […] she said, Oh yes, Mr. Lucas was his name, Mr. Lucas, but […] I thought I would, we're
always encouraged to try our own method. He said, very well Miss so-and-so, that's quite alright. But before you
try a method, make sure it's a method. You see. And that was the sort of training we got. If, if you found
something, you could vary but make sure it was a method that had been well thought out, not just something that
occurred to you off the cuff. So, there was a big difference, yes. And I can recall, at the time we were discussing
going into the […] Victoria College situation […] in the Victoria College situation we were […] part of the College
of, did they call it the College of Education? 

WB: Was it called college or faculty?

GB: No, it wasn't the faculty. School of education? No, it wasn't the school. Something. Our dean really was the
dean, Dean [Scarfe?] of UBC. We were under UBC as it were, you see. And I recall […] when we had meetings,
I was on the committee when we were drawing up the curriculum, what curriculum would we suggest for the […]
training of, the one-year, two-year salon training of teachers? I recall talking to the then principal of the
Vancouver Normal School, that was [Tad Boise?] and he had said, now we're going to insist on certain things
when we become part of the university. One is the morning assembly, which of course went by the board, they
would laugh at it. But this was the morning assembly when we came in, read the Scriptures, had the Lord's
Prayer, and

WB: Program. 

GB: Probably a program. 

WB: Two groups together. Announcements. 

GB: And that was where the announcements of the day were made and that pulled you together.

WB: [inaudible] now. 



GB: You see, that's they way they were thinking even before we went into the […] faculty of education. 

JW: You were still having these morning assemblies at the end of the normal school life

WB: Um-hum. 

JW: As well as when you were students. 

GB: Oh yes, right to the very last day. Right to the very last day. I remember […] English saying to me, George
[…] we need a new Bible. I would like Bible, one that you could hold up. I said, alright. So I bought one from
Frank Hamilton, you see, through a purchase order. 

WB: They used to have skits, and they'd tick off the staff. All that sort of thing. Good, clean fun. 

GB: Yes, yes. 

JW:  Was each class responsible for?

WB: For a week. 

JW: For a week? 

WB: Yes. I had [inaudible crosstalk]

GB: In the morning assemblies. 

WB: In the morning assembly. Yes. 

GB: Yes. 

50:00 JW: Do you remember anything that you did when you were?

WB: Oh yes. I had a dandy group. Particularly the 

GB: Well, she had all women and that was easy. 

WB: And I had, I was fortunate in the women I had and I had one who, oh she'd done all sorts of things, a
married woman. And she dragged girls into this, one day we'd have sort of an operetta, another day we'd have
this probably very funny

GB: Well you used to have […]parades, you know. The girls dressed up. 

WB: Yes. We did the Mexican, at Christmas time we did that Mexican one. 

GB: Pingata [piñata?]

WB: That pizata [piñata?]. 

GB: Pizata [Piñata?]. 

WB: And all the girls carried candles. They wouldn't be allowed to carry, to light the candle today. They came
down the hall and up the centre aisle all singing this pizata [piñata?] song and they had this big pizata [piñata?]
which they all hit with sticks and danced and the gifts all flowed out. You know, you sort of vied, they did, to put
on a good program. 

GB: Oh yes

WB: They were marvelous, weren't they?



GB: Yes, sort of a little competition, unofficial. I mean, there was no prize. 

WB: No prize. 

GB: Nothing was ever said but, gee these fellas have done well. 

[inaudible crosstalk]

GB: Some of them were straightforward talks. 

WB: Talk on hometowns, yes. 

GB: Oh yes. One of the things we always did near the beginning of the year was have students talk about their
hometowns. 

WB: They were interesting too. 

GB: Summerland, Penticton, Kamloops, Fernie, and Michel, Natal, you know. Prince George, [Pooscoo?] Bay, it
was most interesting. 

JW: It would be an education right there. 

GB: Oh yes. 

WB: And fun to start the day.

GB: And some of them would have a map on the board. And then I remember one boy from Oliver, little Wilson,
do you recall him?

WB: Yeah.

GB: Little Wilson […] talked on the new high school there. The […]

WB: Taj Mahal, they called it. 

GB: The Taj Mahal. It was the first million dollar high school in the province. It's now, it`s still a good school but it
was the first of the new modern schools. 

WB: And I always had nuns, they used to come for the [inaudible].

JW: Did they?

WB: And I had as many as five in one section and they were in full habit then, you see. And they, they were just
the best sports. They'd look after a program, they'd giggle and, oh they were lovely too. 

GB: And they, they would play, they would play baseball too. Running around in their habits. 

WB: Yes. Fix up their skirts. And I always had them all to tea at my house once a year. Oh we had a lovely time. 

GB: Yes. 

JW: You taught the primary education. 

WB: Uh-huh. Yes. And I taught penmanship to everybody. 

JW: Um-hum. 

WB: And I taught teaching and reading to the boys too because […] they were likely to be principals and should
know, you see, how to do it. 



GB: Not only that […] in those days they were still going to ungraded school. Some, not many, but there were
still ungraded, everything from one to eight. 

WB: Yes, so [inaudible]

GB: And some of our, some our students used to have to go to these ungraded schools. I remember one at up
[Notch?] Hill, outside of Salmon Arm, where people taught everything from grade one to eight. You had to be an
organizer then because you jumped here, there, set them all to work [inaudible]. 

WB: Make a good timetable, you know, take [inaudible]. 

GB: Oh yes, the timetable was the most important thing then. Now that, students today just wouldn't have any
idea about. Because they've got nobody up there who's had any experience of it. Of course the ungraded school
is pretty well gone. 

WB: [inaudible] Yes. 

GB: Because we have the consolidated school. But again, you see, these great big schools are being broken up.
People are objecting to have their youngsters out in the […] roadway at 20 minutes to 8 to catch the bus. It's too
early for youngsters. So they're having little local 2 and 3-year-olds go. 

WB: And how to, we ran, taught them how to run a Christmas concert, gave them programs for it. 

GB: Yes. Yes. 

WB: And they put them on in the assemblies, some of them, you know. So they had experience, because you
always have to do a Christmas concert in the school, had some share in it. 

GB: Sure. Yes. Even I had to do that and knew nothing about it. Yes. 

JW: I was wondering, when you were instructing the primary [...] education, did you ever have a chance to [...]
build their, their self-confidence up 'cause some of the girls were very young and they'd go out to the one-room
schools and some of their students would be almost as old as they were.

WB: Um-hum. Well, [...] by the time they left normal school they had quite a fair degree of confidence in
handling, you know, ordinary atmospheres and they always had primary experience and they always had lesson
help and if they were going to teach, practice teaching in a rural school. Then too they had to have [...] the
teachers always sent in what they wanted taught for the three weeks, and then we, they'd have to draw up a
timetable and we'd have lesson help and whatever they needed and, and look over all their arrangements and
visual aids and this, that, they worked like beavers, they really did.

GB: Here, I, I always felt that the girls who [...] opted for the primary option, who were interested in primary,
gained more than anybody else out of normal school because [...] you see, my wife [...] had them for reading and
all the ancillary parts.

WB: Language.

55:00 GB: Language, you see. Which is the large part of the primary work. So, when you went out to see these
youngsters teach they were always well-trained, as opposed to the, those in the upper grades where they had
somebody teaching arithmetic, somebody teaching science, somebody else teaching language and so on, and
furthermore, when you got to the upper grades [...] I was responsible for the teaching of science. Now, I was
supposed to be teaching science methods but what I had to do was try to teach some elementary science
because these people knew nothing, you see. And that was one of the difficulties. The same way with the fellow
teaching social studies. These young people didn't know one place from another. They hardly knew where the
continents were. The, the product of social studies in the school, which is a dead loss. They don't teach
anything. Certainly they don't teach, don't teach any geography anyway, you see. So that was a sort of difficulty.
The primary girls, on the other hand, were very, very well [...] equipped. Much better, relatively, than those in the
other grades. That isn't to say that there were any better students at all. Not [...]



WB: There were more methods, you see [inaudible] they all knew how to add to ten and

GB: Yes, more, more methodical.

JW: Did more women go into the primary grades than men.

WB: Oh yeah.

GB: Oh well, yes.

WB: No men.

JW: No men.

WB: They could, of course, but they didn't.

GB: It's traditional, you see, it's traditional. Oh, they're trying to break through now but I recall [...] my day as a
student in normal school, the principal Mr. MacLaurin saying to us, gentlemen that's a woman's job, this was the
primary grade.

WB: There are a lot of men in it now. Not a lot. But I see in Victoria, some of them teaching kindergarten, some
of them

GB: Yes, I [...] I still prefer a woman teaching the [...] primary grades.

WB: Little fellas.

GB: Yes. I still do. Because a lot of mothering has to be done with them and a man can't mother very well.

WB: Oh we pay them help in how to dress and, and [...] keep themselves nice in front of the classroom. A lot of
them didn't know that. Through no fault of their own. Nowadays [inaudible]

[inaudible crosstalk]

GB: [inaudible] didn't think about it even

WB: They use it, you know [inaudible] that sort of stuff.

GB: Yes. One thing you used to have to do, one thing that's gone by the board now, you used to have to try to
emphasize the blackboard work.

WB: Oh yeah.

GB: See writing on the blackboard is so important. The stuff that goes on the board is just awful. See, in our
days, students would have gotten rapped down for it.

WB: Make you practice [inaudible]

GB: Yeah you had, well we did.

WB: We practiced on the board in my class.

GB: We used to go out and practice.

WB: Yeah.

GB: Course they did yours after school.



WB: The left-handed people had [good?] trouble.

GB: The men wouldn't practice.

JW: Your school day [...] when you were students, would be regular school day for like in the elementary
schools  maybe 9 till [inaudible]

WB: [inaudible]

GB: No, it varied a little bit depending on your timetable. I know that we, we were 65 and because we were a big
group there was just so much that could, we were always through at 2:30\. But that was just the luck of the draw.
The girls weren't. That's because they just, there weren't enough instructors to do anything more and the
instructors [...] I mean they can only do so much in a day. I remember talking to Dr. MacLaurin afterwards when
we were marking matriculation papers once [...] we were talking about the days gone by. I said, that was murder.
He said, it was, it was murder. You know, the way they had to work. Oh yes.

JW: So the rest of your afternoon would be preparing lessons

GB: You see, we had only, we, we were 245 students and I think we had 5 instructors.

WB: Something like that.

GB: About 5 instructors.

WB: And many of the girls worked for their board which meant they had to be home by 4 o'clock too or their lady
would be mad at them and they had, they worked night and day.

GB: Oh yes, yes. But that's why there wasn't so much social life and there was no time for it.

WB: Yes. [Boys?] weren't working for their board.

GB: No, no, no. I just, I went home and studied my notes and

WB: Uh-huh. Painted your birds.

GB: Painted my birds.

WB: Bird book. Your flowers for your flower book.

GB: Read up what I had to read.

WB: I always said normal school was a manual labour [inaudible]

GB: Oh we had to do drawings for [Donal?].

WB: Yeah.

GB: Oh yeah.

WB: Practice our MacLain method.

GB: Practice your MacLain method.

WB: Write out all the plans.

JW: Did everything that you'd created at normal school, you used later on when you were teaching, did you?

WB: I think so, pretty well.



GB: Pretty, pretty, yeah pretty well. I didn't use my birds but [...] I threw them away [...] mine were no good.

JW: You weren't an artist [...]

GB: But I, I, I kept my notes on them.

WB: Yes I have some of my notes still I

GB: Well, I'm sorry I haven't mine but [...] I can remember the grammar that MacLaurin gave us and the [...] I
think that stimulated my interest in grammar, other than I was interested in languages and you become
interested in grammar.

WB: He had a breakdown a few years later because my sister was there from '25 to '26 [1925-1926] and he was
away.

GB: Yes, yes. Well, that was after the Putnam Weir report too.

WB: Yes, he was upset.

1:00:00 GB: It, it hit him hard. It was unfair really because [...] he was really reproducing what was required in the
times and along came these two who were ahead of the times, you see, they gave him a merciless treatment.
True, the normal school needed upgrading as far as its methods go but [...] I think they could have been a little
more charitable.

JW: Did anything good come out of that report?

GB: Oh yes [...] The [...] it, it probably [...] resulted in more changes than any subsequent ones. Certainly much
more that the [Chant?] report did. It [...] it got away from the stereotyped [...] reading of notes and requiring of
notes from students and this sort of thing and began to [...] let a little more fresh air into the whole thing, I would
say. And it was [...] indirectly responsible, amongst other things, which I don't think necessarily was a good thing,
for the introduction of the junior high school, which was probably, but I don't know whether it was a mistake or
not but [...] they haven't been altogether successful.

1:01:18