Interview with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams outside Ts̓zil Community School
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL LONG TONE
ROGER Yes, this is roll number 50, five zero, um, Mind of a Child, ah production
number 24-597. This is day one. Um, slate coming up is 249.
Beep. Slate no: 249
LORNA This building is the - It used to be called the Creekside Elementary School
and it was built in the late thirties by the Department of Indian Affairs when they built ah,
federal day schools on reserves across the country and um, it was run by veterans ah,
after the world w- the Second World War and um, and in about the late fifties, early
sixties, the Missionary Sisters of Christ the Kim- King, was the given the contract to
teach. And then, in, shortly thereafter the, the federal government and the provincial
governments ah, were working out an agreement to send ah, First Nations students to
public schools.
And um, it was in the - must have been, probably 1969/70 when a group
of grade six kids who would have then gone to Signal Hill, told their
parents that they were, that they were not going to go to school any more,
and that they weren't. The refused to go to the public school and so the
action that their parents took was fi- was then to um, to take control of the
schools and um, the National Indian Brotherhood's paper in reaction to
Chretien's White Paper which was to close down all the schools on the
reserves and um, and to begin to close down Indian reserves, act- really,
um, so the Indian Brotherhood responded ah, in a paper called Indian
Education for- Indian Control of Indian Education and it was through that
agreement that um, that the Mt. Currie people were able to take over the
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL school and the Board of Education was born and they ran the school,
this school here, which was already condemned when they took over, until
a new school was built in .
ROGER Ambience, children.
[off-mic discussion]
ROGER This is speed shot 250.
LORNA When I um, I spent two years in residential school. So I started school
back here -
GARY Start it from the top.
LORNA No, okay. I can't remember now what - I spent two years in residential
school, um, grade two and grade three and then I came back to this school in grade four
and I was here until nineteen - until grade eight.
Ah, when I came, there were lay teachers in the - in, in the grade four
class, grade four-five class and also in the grade six-seven and eight
class. So in grade four-five I had a teacher who was quite abusive and
she was well known as a very abusive teacher and um, physically abusive
and emotionally abusive and in, but in grade six there was a teacher from
ah, Prince Edward Island who um, who was, who was teaching here and
um, although he was, he was strict, he also was a really good story teller
'cause I think that story telling must have been part of his culture and ah, I
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL remember that um, that we used to sta- that we used to get him started on
a story and then just listen and we'd sometimes he'd talk for two or three
hours ah, before he realized what he was doing and um, and I think that
probably, that helped me to come back out of the depression that I was in
after residential school. And so I remember him really well and um, as
somebody who I feel was um, I felt was a really good teacher.
And um, when I was in grade um, seven or eight, I can't re- really
remember which year it was, but um, by then the agreement between the
fed- federal government and the province was um, was becoming even
more entrenched and so they began to do psychological assessments on
us and ah, I remember in that year that um, um, when they did the
assessments that there were only two people in our class who were ra-
who were, um, who had scored at a-above a mentally retarded ah, range,
and um, and I don't think - I think they thought we di- we di- we didn't
know what this was all about but we knew and we used to laugh about it,
but I think that it was something that stayed with me, certainly, and I think
that it was practically - it's partly because of that experience that I think -
that led me to the ro- the Feuerstein's work.
[off-mic discussion]
ROGER This is 251.
[off-mic discussion]
Beep.
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL
LORNA In um - Sometime when I was in grade seven or eight, the, I remember
that they were doing assessments. People from Vancouver came to the school to do
assessments on us, ah the grade six, seven and eight class and they did this becau- in
preparation for us to go to public school. And um, I remember that when the results,
when they were finished and um, there were forty-five of us in the class and um, they
did the assessments and we find out that there were only two ah, students in our class
who were of a-above the um, mentally re- um, retarded age and I wasn't one of those
two. Then, I think that um, although we laughed about and we joked about it that ah,
that they would think this ab- of us, that it always stayed with me and it was partly that
that I think led me to Feuerstein's work.
GARY And how - what's the connection?
LORNA Um, the connection is that psychological assessments that were used
were not um, appropriate. They didn't measure a person's intelligence quotient and it
didn't rea- It, I think um, it masked people's real abilities. Th-the assessments,
themselves, masked people's real abilities and I think that Feuerstein's work doesn't do
that.
[off-mic discussion]
ROGER It's 252
[off-mic discussion]
beep
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SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL
LORNA The Mt. Currie um, um, hm. Yeah, I'm going to start again.
The, the agreements between the federal government and the province
were escalating towards the end of the sixties and they started to take the
um, the classes, one grade at a time over to Pemberton, the neighbouring
white community and in about - must have been about 1969/70 when a
class of grade six students said that they would not, they would not go.
And um, and so, tha- in that school year, in the fall, they um, the parents of
those children hired a teacher who actually, um, wasn't paid, but he taught
the students and ah, and the final take-over of the school began in a-about
1972.
Um, we began with the ah, primary school and the, and some of the
upper, the high school classes. We started the high school class, I think,
with um, thirty students and by, by Christmas there were ninety students in
the high school, of students in the community who had dropped out of
school and they saw this as a way to come back.
And so, we were then - And at that time, there were only two teachers in
the community, my sister, Mary, and Felicity um - There we- and so we
knew that if we were going to successfully take over school, this school
and the education of our children, that we would need to train teachers.
We needed to train the teachers um, here, rather than for them to go to
ah, university outside of our community because it was important for us to
always be focused that we were being trained to be teachers and teachers
of our children and that alot of the - what the people were learning in
teacher education programs were, was biased and um, and based on, on
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL myth um - And so we knew that we couldn't rely on um, on what we would
be taught in University to help us to solve some of the dilemmas that faced
us in school, ah, for educating aboriginal children.
[off-mic discussion]
ROGER 253
beep
LORNA When we took over the school, um, one of the things that we did was to
ah, negotiate a teacher training program and part of the teacher training program was
for us to find ways of teaching um, ah, teaching our children and ah, to understand why
our children were not academically successful in school and um, part of it, it was
thought, wa- um, was that the school, at that time, the education that we were getting
was not um, culturally relevant and so we um, so we went in search.
And um, it was really exci- an exciting time because it was the first time
that um, that our parents, our people, were able to um, to have a say in
the way that they're children would be educated and this has been - This
was something that was not part of our community for, for almost a
hundred years and so the, so the excitement was really, really high.
And um, the other reason why we ah, began to take course - We were
negotiating with the universities for a teacher training program was to
begin to develop um, um, to take linguistics courses so that we could
develop an orthography and um, some language curriculum materials, to
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL teach our language, Lil'wat, in the school and to train - And so the people
who were training were basically volunteers from our community and
about half of those people um, heard the language, but they didn't speak
the language, and the other half spoke the language. And so we needed
to, and we wanted our own teachers in the classrooms and we wanted our
own teachers from our community to teach our children and to teach our
children in, in our language.
We did a survey in the community. We went to every family to talk about
what their vision of this, of a school w-was and to ask them what they
wanted from this school. And the-the-there were two things um, main
things that, that the families wanted. One was and I- probably the
foremost, was for the school to teach Lil'wat in the, in the school. And
because we were young and um, and ready to take on anything, um, we
agreed that this is what we do and um, and so we set to work and um, and
studied and we discovered an orthography, developed th- some
curriculum materials from kindergarten right through to adult and we
trained our teachers and um, and thought that, you know, we were going
to solve everything, that the kids would learn it in school.
There were a number of - But there were a number of um, um, issues that
came up. One was the, the who- the, a debate that began to um, to
happen in the homes and in the community about the language, because
what we were doing was ma- bringing an oral language from um, our
language from an oral language to a, a written language and so some of
the people um, were really concerned about the changes that would, that
would have on our language, so can we still call it our language if we're
going to impose a foreign system on it and, but it was exciting.
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 50 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL
I don't think very few people would ever have an opportunity to have those
kinds of debates about any language in the world today. But what - and
so um, after um, a few years, though, we realized that um, we were not so
successful in reviving or, or maintaining our language in the classrooms
and we realized, then, I think that um, that basically what we had done
was taken our language that was unused and put it into an unreal situation
which was a classroom, so that the language still continued to not live.
And um, and then we realized, too, that although the parents said ah,
overwhelmingly in, unanimously said that this is what -
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED LONG TONE
Beep. Slate 254
[off-mic discussion]
LORNA So we, um, set to work and um, we were taping elders with, for stories and
um, and we started working on a dictionary, some grammar texts and um, and
curriculum materials and ways of teaching the language in a classroom and um, but
after a while we realized that um, as we took a, probably stood back at our, what we
were doing, what we realized was that the only place still, that our, that our language
was being spoken was in the classroom and um, and that when the children went home
they were speaking English, even though in Mt. Currie at that time, um, even though we
were relatively close to Vancouver, we were quite a- isolated for many years and ah,
many of the people still spoke our languages.
So that the parents of the kids in the schools knew our language but they
would not speak to their children. And um, so we were, we were puzzled
by this and we were um, trying to develop some strategies to um, to get
the language spoken in the homes. And um, what we finally realized, I
think, was that um, that th- that during the times when our languages was
ah, being virtually beaten out of the people, so the parents whose children
were in our school at that time, were the ones who had attended
residential schools and federal day schools and their experience, and our
experience - I have to include myself in this was that we were not to speak
our language. That our language was detrimental to our ability to learn
English because um, it was thought that our language was so primitive
SR 51 - PAGE
The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED and so that um, um, so basically what the parents were doing was um,
was protecting their children because they cared for and wanted their
children to be successful, they were withholding the language from their
children and many families were withholding the culture and teach-
cultural teachings from their children.
And um, so once we understood that, we were able to develop some
strategies to begin to revive the language in different parts of the
community and to begin to convey the message to our members, that um -
to our community that um, that our language was valuable and tha-that it
wasn't detrimental to ah, to children. It wouldn't damage their
opportunities to speak other languages.
ROGER Rolling. This is close up, Lorna walking.
beep Rolling. This is Lorna, wide.
beep
Beep. Slate no: 255
[off-mic discussion]
Beep. Slate no: 256
LORNA ...wholesalers, sell everything both on and off reserve? [?: Uh huh.] Like
are you, are, are you gonna go and sell to Pemberton, or?
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED
? No, just like people that come to the reserve to buy.
LORNA Yeah, but see by the way that it says, it says that it's on and off reserve,
means that you're gonna go off the reserve to resell?
? No. Just members and, yeah, that's what it means.
Beep. Slate no: 256
? ...take you peanut butter and -
LORNA ...and the local stores now, is all processed food, [?: Uh huh.] and it's not,
and it's not good. It doesn't come from our land. [?: Uh huh.] And so that the, so that
what, so one really important part is that where people are sel- buying food again from
our land, okay.
? Yeah, yeah, we're - it says in there at some point where we're doing both,
aye?
LORNA I know but it just says it's by local products, such as extra vegetables.
What I'm saying is that the point needs to be made that the food that people have
access to now, are processed foods [?: Uh huh.] that come from somewhere else.
They're not, you know, so they're just not food. It's not foo- only food that's the issues;
[?: Yeah.] it's the fact that it comes from our land [?: Uh huh.] is the point that needs to
be made, [?: Uh huh.] because I think that alot of the -
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SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED
Beep. Slate no: 258
...economics tied to the well-being of, of the people, I think [?: Uh
huh.] ...to bring back. [?: Uh huh.] Okay?
? Yep.
? Sorry. Fax that to him again and he has a disk over there, [?: Yeah] and
then he'd be happy.
? Well, he can't fax it through the , this one, can we? Will he make it
through?
? Oh, yeah, our fax doesn't work to go out; it just works coming in. [?: Ah.]
[?: Oh, is that right?] Yeah, or you could try it.
? Try it and see if he gets it, you know, but I don't think that some of this
would come out. [?: Oh.]
LORNA Tell him to send us a disk.
[off-mic discussion]
Beep. Slate no: 259
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SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED LORNA ...mandated by the ...to return to the traditional one, called family head,
family head system [?: Uh huh.] but it's, and I think that, that it's important also to point
out that this was abandoned. This system was abandoned [?: Uh huh.] in our lifetime.
[?: Uh huh.]
? That's when . Was it then?
LORNA It was e- after that. It was - [?: Is it?] Yeah, we were already here, you
know, long [?: Oh.] after the Indian Act [?: Uh huh.] was put into place. Here, it's, it has
been in our lifetime [?: Yeah.] so it's not that long, so it doesn't, so that people then,
don't get the idea that um, we're going to something that we've lost [?: Uh huh.]
because we haven't, see? [?: Uh huh.]
? Yeah, this one was written -
Beep. Slate no: 260
...up for the council, aye -
? The whole thing.
LORNA ...I know, but that, no. But then, see, but then, see, here, he says more
than a hundred unarmed young men stood up in front of the R.C.M.P. guns, well, um,
that, like there weren't [?: Uh huh.] all, it wasn't only young men who were there.
[?: ...everybody.]
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The Mind of a Child Face to Face Media Ltd.
SR 51 - LORNA OUTSIDE OF OLD MISSION SCHOOL CONTINUED ? Well, I was even standing there.
LORNA So, and it - not only young men were a part of the -
Beep. Slate no: 263
LORNA ...there were older -
[banging sounds, then off-mic discussions]
Beep. Slate no: 264
[off-mic discussions]
Beep. Slate no: 265
[off-mic discussions]
Beep. Slate no: 266
[off-mic discussions]
SR 51 - PAGE
Production material centres around an interview conducted with Lorna Wanosts’a7 Williams at the site of Creekside Elementary School, a former federal day school. The school later became the band-controlled Ts̓zil Community School until Xet̓ólacw Community School was built.
In video part 1, Wanosts’a7 outlines the history of the school; her experiences at St. Joseph's Residential School and Indian Day School; how the inappropriate cognitive testing methods performed on her and other Indigenous students at the time led her to the work of Reuven Feuerstein; and the need to train teachers in the community.
In video part 2, Wanosts’a7 talks about negotiating a teacher training program; developing an orthography and curriculum materials for the Lil̓wat language, Ucwalmícwts; and how the trauma of the residential school system created barriers for language revitalization outside the classroom.
The filmed segments of the interview run from 12:00 on tape 1, and continue until 08:33 on tape 2.
Additional sequences can be found proceeding and following the interview, including scenes around the school site; scenes around the Nelson farm; and Wanosts’a7, the production crew, and others at the home of Tsínay̓a7 (Georgina Nelson) and Albert Nelson in Mount Currie. Some of this material does not have corresponding audio.
Originally recorded on 16 mm film and 1/4” reel-to-reel audio later transferred and synced to Betacam SP for use during post-production. Dates on cassettes are believed to reflect date of transfer.Transcripts of the 1/4” sound reels was created by Face to Face Media for use during post-production. These audio transcripts include additional interview segments not found on the videocassettes and have been provided unedited.Digitized by the The MediaPreserve. Access files created by University of Victoria Special Collections and University Archives. Metadata by Matt Innes.
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This material is made available on this site for research and private study only.
