Olive Wilson Heritage interview

Olive Wilson Heritage interview

[Judith Windle interviewing Olive Wilson Heritage in 1978]

Olive Wilson Heritage: Of course, there was the principal, ah, Dr. MacLaurin, and he was my favourite. He was a
remarkably, ah, conscientious and, ah, uhm, very fine man. I just adored him. Ah, this one, I detested [laughs]
but he was a great [crosstalk]

Judith Windle: Dr. Denton

OWH: Yes, he was a great favourite of, ah, the athletically inclined because, ah, he, ah, I don't, he, know
whether he'd be the coach or not. I should think the physical ed. teacher would be and I've forgotten the name
here of this, Sergeant Bain and, ah, wait a minute, Sergeant Bain and this other one was, ah, Sergeant Frost.
Whether we had two in the same year or not I don't remember. And then, ah, these two women weren't actually
on the Normal staff but it says so, the Faculty,

JW: It's Miss Scanlan,

OWH: Miss Scanlan. She was absolutely superb and, ah, taught, ah, ah, grades, ah, oh, I suppose six, seven
and eight. And Miss Barron was a dear. She taught the primary children. But I wasn't, ah, so interested in the
primary children as I was in the others, ah, and it was, ah, quite ironic. My first job, [laughs], was to teach grades
one, two and three out in North Saanich [laughs], and, ah, this was the primary instructor,

JW: Miss Riddell,

OWH: Yes, but as far as I was concerned she was feeble and, [laughs], 

JW: She was also your music instructor, wasn't she?

OWH: Yes, music instructor and I, ah, wasn't musical. I love music but, ah, ah, I didn't think I could, ah, perform
and, uhm, I, ah, you know, we just didn't click, nor did I click with this person [laughs]  

JW: Who is this person? Who [inaudible]

OWH: She taught Home Economics and I couldn't see any reason why we should be doing Home Economics,

JW: What did you do in that class?02:17

OWH: Well, ah, we cooked and, ah, I made a dress that did anything but fit me. Mother had to make it over. It
was rather nice material but it was, ah, certainly not fitted. Ah, this was, ah, ah, Mr. Freeman and he was an old
dear but we teased him a lot, you know, we'd all drop a ruler at the same time, or we'd all look in our desks, you
know. Budding teachers, and this is what we did.

This was my Home Room teacher, Mr. Dunnell. [High?] Dunnell, he was called. And his daughter, Betty, was
also at the, ah, school. He was my, did I say, Home Room teacher. And, ah, this was,

JW: Was she in the same year as you?

OWH: Who was that?

JW: His daughter? [crosstalk]

OWH: Betty. Yes, I think she was. We'll see if we can find her picture. And this was, ah, ah, May Lucas, the
secretary. She was a delightful person. And by the way, she was, ah, sister of Edith Lucas, who was a year or
two ahead of me at school. I have her picture in one of those Camosuns and, ah, she became, uhm, a great, ah,
scholar. She got her PhD in French at the Sorbonne. And, ah, she became, uhm, second in command of the, ah,
uhm, School of Correspondence at the Parliament Buildings. Ah, her predecessor was, ah, J.W. Gibson who, ah,
is the, was the father of, ah, ah, William Gibson and James Gibson of, ah, great fame. One at UBC and the
other, I don't know where, ah, James is now. He was at Carlton College but I couldn't tell you where he is now. 



And these, uhm, two men, I can't, ah, ... distinguish them. I liked physical ed. and so it was fun.

JW: They were the sergeants who came up from, ah, [Fort Plain?] weren't they? Across the [crosstalk]

OWH: Oh, I couldn't tell you where they came from, ah, they were just there [laughs]. Ahm, now, ah, that's the
staff. Is there, ah,

JW: I'm interested in the different, ah, societies. There's the Literary Society and, ah,

OWH: Yes, every Friday afternoon, I think it was, we put on, ah, I don't know whether, what I remember best
wasn't very literary. Ah, I was the tallest person at, ah, in my class, I'm sure. And there was a little girl who was
probably the shortest, ah, I mean I was taller than all the boys, you know, I was 'the tallest', probably taller than
the staff and, it was very embarrassing. But we put on a stunt. We sang, "Yes, we have no bananas."  I was
dressed up like Goliath or something. And I don't know how she was dressed. But you know, for the life of me, I
can't remember anything particularly literary that occurred during, ah, those Friday afternoons. But, ah, maybe I
wasn't at the perceptive stage and it's just left me [laughs]. I am sure that Max Mainard of whom I have told you,
here he is, would have, ah, played his flute [clears throat] and ah, probably, ah, recited poetry or done something
like that, I am not quite, quite sure.05:56 

And this was Dorothy [Hartree?]. She had a very beautiful voice and used to sing. Uhm, and this was Miss, ah,
Scanlan's niece. And Betty Savana, these are all on the Literary executive. Betty Savana was daughter of the,
ah, uhm, photographer Savan, Savana, and sister of Ed Savana who, ah, became, ah, I believe he was in the
Chemistry department or, at the, ah,  University of Victoria. He, ah, he had something to do with science up
there, at any rate. And, of course, this is Dorothy Gop who was Dorothy Martin and was an excellent musician
and adorable per, person. And this was, ah, somebody Charlebois. Now, what does, Agnes Charlebois. She,
uhm, hmm, I, I've forgotten what she was famous for, but she was a very clever girl.

JW: Did you have to belong to, ah, at least one club within the school? Was that mandatory or did everybody just
fall into,

OWH: Well, we all belonged to that Literary Society. Here is an article which will tell you what happened there. I
should have read this book before you came. [laughs] Yes, that's ah, you should, you should read that then
you'd know what happened.

JW: Were you in athletics at all?

OWH: Not at all. Ah, I was very poorly coordinated. I think I told you the other day about Hilda Prideman. I know I
did and she was a very good athlete. So was, ah, Norm Forbes, of course. He was marvelous. And, ah, Ella
Lewis and Nellie Stein. These people are all available. Ahm, you've seen, ah, Jack Fouracre. Ah, let's see now,
ah, and I also told you about Blossom Johnson. She was called Blossom Barnette and she was a very good
basketball player. So was E, Elaine Fox. Here they are. 

JW: Did you go and watch the games?

OWH: Oh, yes. I always did that. I liked to watch the others very much [crosstalk]

JW: Who did they play against? Do you remember?

OWH: Oh, no, I can't tell you. Ah, you'd have to read this section on athletics to find that out.

JW: Did they have regular games down in the gym?

OWH: Well, the gym was very small. Ah, but I suppose that's where they played. As far as I can recall that was
where it was. But this, ah, gives a good account of the various athletics and the players. And there's Mr. Denton,
now let's see. He coached rugby, apparently. And I would like to say one thing about him. But since you're
recording this, I shall refrain.

JW: Well I've heard many things about Mr. Denton. He was a very colourful man,



OWH: A ca what?

JW: Colourful man.

OWH: Yes. And he was very crude. [laugh]

JW: Uhm, a lot of the women I have interviewed have said that, ah, he didn't really get along well with the
women. He was a favourite with the boys.

OWH: Well, he got along very well with some of the, ah, women. Those that, ah, were athletes. Yes, he was, ah,
very fond of them. And, ah, it was just that, ah, I suppose, I [inaudible], we simply didn't click. He lived near us.
Dr. MacLaurin lived near where we lived, too. Ah, Dr. Denton lived on, ah, at the corner of Belmont and Begbie,
in that big cor house on the, ah, northeast corner and, ah,10:08  Dr. MacLaurin lived in the one on the southwest
corner. So I was in good company. [laughs] Ah, I usually walked to school. It took me about, I suppose, about 25
minutes from our place near St. Barnabas Church, ah, out to the Normal School. It was, ah, less trouble than
going for the streetcar that we used to have in those days.

JW: Would it take about the same time to take the streetcar into town and back out?

OWH: Oh, you didn't take it into town. You got it up at the corner of Fort and Belmont. It was called the Mt.
Tolmie streetcar. Of course, in bad weather I took it. But I liked to walk. If that's an, an athletic activity I really
enjoyed it. And swimming. But I don't [crosstalk]

JW: Where did you do the swimming?

OWH: I don't think we did any swimming. I learned at the Y when I was 10 years old but I can't remember,

JW: Do you remember the little plunge pools, little small swimming pools up at the Normal School?

OWH: Yes, I think I do but I was never in one of them.

JW: They were very small.

OWH: Uh, hmm. Yes, the gym was very small, too. I suppose people were supposed to come in small packages
in those days [laughs]. This boy must have been, ah, uhm, coach, for the girls basketball and I've forgotten his
name but he was a very nice chap. Uhm, hmm, what was his name?

JW: Would it be down in here?

OWH: No, those are the, ah, ah, players. Uhm, let's see. They used to play, according to this, the, ah, Church
teams, the Fidel, the Fidelist Girls team was, ah, at First United. There was a small gym at First United where I
used to try to play basketball, ah, under the, ah, coaching of, ah, Betty Hartness. Her father built the house that
Mr. Denton lived in, by the way. And she became ah, ah, Mrs. Honkin and Mr. Honkin was an Englishman who
became principal of the George J. School. And then when the Central Junior High School was formed he
became principal of that. And I worked under him for several years as vice principal. Ah, the poor man had
suffered a war injury in his ankle and he had to walk from the, ah, I, were you here in those days when the Junior
High was formed? You couldn't be, you're not old enough [laughs] Well, [laugh] 37\. [laughs] Well at any rate, he
had to walk from, ah, the, ah, building which was, ah, formerly Girls Central School down to the, ah, building
which had been the Boys Central School. Quite a distance, I imagine about three hundred yards on this bad
ankle. And, ah, many a time, I went into his office and he had his foot up on another chair. He must have
suffered terribly. And it was so sad in a way. When the new building was, ah, erected he had died. And he didn't
live to enjoy it. It would have been so much more comfortable for him then.

JW: Was there much of a social life the year you were out there? Did you get to [crosstalk]

OWH: Oh, no. Not in, just in the Literary Society.  Ah, there may have been privately amongst groups. Ahm, but
there certainly wasn't anything like a dance or anything like that.

JW: Did you have a picnic at the beginning of the year to get acquainted?



OWH: Ahh,

JW: For years the, the instructors put on this "Get acquainted picnic".

OWH: We did have a picnic. I can't remember at the beginning but I think there was one at the end. Now where
did we go? Oh, I've forgotten where that picnic was. But, ah, it certainly wasn't Butchart's. It was, ah, I think it
was out in the country somewhere. You should have told me to read my annual before you came [laughs]. Ah,
but the, the, ah, physical ed. teachers took charge of that.

JW: Did they?

OWH: Ah, we used to get, I used to get rather exasperated sometimes and I remember doing something that I
should never have done. But in the art room, there was a statue of Venus De Milo. And one day when just a few
of us were around I got hold of a flower pot and I put it on top of her head. That gave us a little bit of excitement
[laughs]. But we didn't, we had a banquet at the end of the year. And, ah, we had it in a very delightful place. It
was in the dining room at the Hudson's Bay store. In those days they had a beautiful dining room. You'd have
thought you were in the Empress. And, ah, ah, unfortunately for me, ah, I don't know how Norm Forbes thought
about it, but we were chosen as valedictorians. This was interesting to have two and I was just in a real tizzy. I
wasn't the kind of person who wanted to get up and talk in front of a group, but, you know, that you were
assigned that. So I went to my dear, ah, History teacher at Vic High, T. W. Cornett. Another person I just adored.
He was wonderful. Ah, see if I can find his picture. And, ah, I told him of this dreadful performance that I had to
go through and asked him what on earth I should say. I had some, ah, I kept the speech for a long time but I
don't have it now [laughs]. I, I compared our, uh, lives during our professional years as climbing a mountain, I
think, in a world of difficulties we have. I knew nothing of, ah, mountain climbing so I don't know, uhm. I think he
was a bit exasperated at me, you know. He, I can remember him saying distinctly when we were in, ah, high
school, that, ah, ah, for girls particularly, uhm, the system was all wrong. They went to, ah, high school and then
they went into the Normal School and then they went back to school, ah, teaching other youngsters and they
knew nothing about the world. But in those days it was hard for a girl to get a job. If you had real pull, you might,
ah, get a job as a waitress in, ah, Banff Springs Hotel or at Lake Louise or some place like that. But I didn't, ah,
have the pull although my father was a CPR employee. Ah, and so, and then of course our parents were much
stricter in those days. They, uhm, about where you went to work. And, ah, so it was almost, ah, 17:41 

JW: Was very limited,[crosstalk]

OWH: Impossible. It was very limited for a girl to get a job. I would never have chosen teaching because I
certainly didn't want to teach. And, ah, but, ah, ah, my father had a sister who was a teacher and a niece who
was a teacher and a, a male relative who was a superintendent of Education. So as I didn't want to be a nurse
and I didn't want to be a stenographer, the only thing I wanted to do was to go in for art. Uhm, and he couldn't
afford to have me sent where [laughs] I thought I should go. I just settled for teaching and, ah, I had such
wonderful teachers like, ah, Mr. Cornett, and Miss Adele McCloud, 18:32 

JW: These were your High School teachers,

OWH: Yes, and Mr. Armstrong. They were marvelous teachers and, ah, I knew I could never come up to them.
And I had Mr. Dilworth, too, who was superb. And, ah, so it really worried me but, ah, as you know, Normal's fit
students had to go out into the schools ah, to, ah, give practice lessons.  And I was fortunate enough to, ah,
teach a lesson for Miss McKillican. She was an outstanding teacher,

JW: Which school was that?

OWH: In the North Ward School. Ah, when, ah, I was appointed to, ah, Victoria, the, ah,  superintendent, we
called him the Inspector of Schools in Victoria, wanted me to go to the Girls Central School. And I said,
"Heavens forbid. That's where I went to school." And he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I said, "I want to
go to the best school you have in town."  And, ah, well, he said, "Which one is that?" And I said, "North Ward."
[laughs] Miss McKillican was there and Norman Forbes was there and, ah, Flori McNeill was there and I
regarded these as superb teachers. Of course, Norman Forbes wasn't a teacher there when I was at Normal
School. He was at Normal School, too. But this is later on and, ah, at any rate, I taught this lesson for Miss
McKillican. And she gave me an excellent crit. And I thought, [inaudible] maybe I can teach. And then Miss



Scanlan, ah, who, ah, taught this, ah, senior half of the Model School, ah, also, ah, was very kind to me. And, ah,
when, ah, Normal School was over, I don't know whether it was over in May or when, what, when the term
ended but she asked me to go and, ah, help her with her class in the Model School. And, ah, after these two
people, uh, had helped me and after having, ah, Mist, Dr., ah, Mr. MacLaurin as he was then, ah, for my
principal, and he taught, ah, Psychology, and Class Management, and Arithmetic and that sort of thing, ah, I
thought, well, maybe there'd be some hope. But imagine my dilemma when out of, ah, seventy candidates I was
selected to teach the primary grades, one, two and three in North Saanich. I thought I know nothing about
primary. This Miss Riddell had taught us how to make plasticine figures and what not. Well, any goose could do
that. And she tried her best to, ah, teach us to sing but I never learned and, ah, those poor children in grades
one, two and three suffered a great deal because of my incapacity to sing. [laughs] And, ah, also, too, ah, oh, we
had to teach phonics and I knew absolutely nothing about phonics. But in the teacher's manual to the, ah, ah,
[pri, primmers?] or whatever the children had, there were three or four pages on phonics so I gobbled them up
and then did my best. But, of course, I think as was true in every class I taught, it was the children that really
buoyed you up. And I had a marvelous, ah, girl, she was older than the others. She was a, a half Belgian girl.
Her father, uhm, I've forgotten his name now but you'd know it as well as could be. He, he had, had gone to the
war, the first world war I guess it would be, and married a Belgian woman and they came out here and they had
this lovely girl, Joyce, ah, rather, ah, Georgette. Georgette, ah, [Lenorax?] I think she was called. And she had a
younger sister, Joyce and, ah, Georgette was most artistic and did the most wonderful posters, ah, and, ah, was
just a thoroughly delightful child. And ah, well, they all were. I, I can remember the Gibsons boys, [laughs], and
they were just young devils with lots of fun. And I had one in my class and I can remember one morning, ah,
when I was there writing on the black board before the children came. I didn't hear him come in but he came in
and tickled me [laughs] And I said, I don't know what I said, and I turned around and here was ah, uhm, he
wasn't Jimmy, he was, ah, oh, one of the younger ones, anyway, and, uhm, so we chatted a bit. And he said,
"Do you know what the kids call you?" And, ah, I had a hunch because I had seen written on a telephone pole
"Old Lady Heritage" [laughs]  But he said, "They call you, "[Louch Hag?]" [laughs]

And then there was another boy, Freddie Clark, and they did, they did the funniest things. One, ah, evening, I
guess it was or afternoon, everybody had gone home as I thought, I heard a barking in my room, and here under
my desk was Freddie pretending he was a dog [laughs]  And, ah, but the amazing thing about these children in,
ah, the primary grades, ah, particularly with the beginners, was, ah, the way in which they caught on to reading
and number work. You could just see their development from day to day. It was thrilling.  24:51 

JW: When you were at the Normal School were you allowed, ah, later on you said you were invited to help in the
Model School but earlier were you allowed to teach in the Model Schools or did you just observe?  

OWH: Well, ah, we never taught, I don't think we taught lessons in the Model School. Later on after I taught quite
a while I was invited to become a teacher at the, ah, Normal School but I, ah, didn't accept the offer.

JW: That was, ah, quite, ah, an achievement to be invited back,

OWH: Well, ah, I always thought, you know, ah, when I, in the early part of my teaching career that I'd like to be
a teacher there. But then, ah, when they asked me I had just begun training in counselling. They appointed me
as a, a, the girls counsellor at Central Junior High and I didn't know anything more about girls counselling than
the man on the moon. So I began to, ah, read about it and I'd taken, ah, some courses at Teacher's College at
Columbia and, ah, over at, ah, I think the University of Washington, I took a course or two there. And so, ah, I
said, well, I, I'm trying to train myself as a counsellor and, ah, I think that's what I should probably, ah, be. I was
vice principal and girls counsellor and head of the English Department and Drama coach, etc., etc., etc,. [laughs]
at Central Junior High but it was a great deal of fun, particularly the Drama Club.

JW: Was there a Drama Club at the Normal School when you were up there?

OWH: Ah, not that I remember. If there had been I'd have, I'd, would have belonged to it. No, I don't remember
that. This Literary Society looked after all that sort of thing.

JW: Did you have the morning assemblies?

OWH: Yes, we had morning assemblies.

JW: What went on in those assemblies [crosstalk]



OWH: Oh, there was singing and, ah, I suppose the Lord's Prayer and, I don't remember saluting the flag
[laughs]. But, ah, Dr. MacLaurin, I think took charge of that.

JW: Was each class, uhm, to do something each week or each day? Was that in effect when you were up there?

OWH: Ah, not that I recall. [crosstalk] No,

JW: At one point some of the students each got up and told a little bit about their home town,

OWH: Well, that might have been. Now, Mr. Denton, ah, with all due respect to him, ah, was a teacher of
Geography and he, ah, ah, did his best to, ah, acquaint us with the various, ah, types of, ah, Geography in
British Columbia. And I think I can remember, I remember him saying something about Bench Labs., and I
wouldn't be at all surprised about his having, ah, ah, the people from the Interior give talks about that. But I don't
remember their actual talking. I don't, ah, remember much about, ah, our, ah, lessons. Uhm, I can remember Dr.
MacLaurin in the, ah, auditorium one day. Maybe, I think it was in a class on Psychology and, ah, he asked how
many windows or how many panes or window panes or how many something were on the side of the north side
of the room. And, ah, so for some reason or other I chose a number and put up my hand and he, ah, said,
"You're right!"  So I was quite overwhelmed [laughs] Uhm, in, ah, the art room, I think was above the auditorium
and that's where Mr. Dunnell took, ah, charge. And, ah, I can't remember anything that I produced except, ah, I
can remember him coming along to me one day and telling me to "hurry up", that I was taking too long to do
whatever the assignment was and, uhm, I guess the creative urge wasn't in me. I just couldn't hurry up. I thought
my, ah, one of my masterpieces was a cartoon of girls in the gym class but Max Mainard, ah, was of, apparently,
of another opinion so it never appeared [laughs] in the Annual. Ah, we used to, in Mr. Freeman's class, ah, we
had to make a bird book, and a flower book and an animal book.  And I just loved doing that. I was looking
through some old pictures the other day and I found, ah, several of my birds. I don't know why I didn't keep the
books. And I found one page from the flower book and a few from the animal book. But the birds I, ah, ah, drew
from, ah, specimens down in the museum. So they encouraged us to go out and the flowers, the wild flowers of
course I got, ah, from around the district. But the animals, I don't know why I didn't, ah, draw them from the
specimens in the museum. But there was a very good book which I can show you called, ah, I think it was the
History of the Hudson's Bay Company and it had excellent drawings of, ah, animals. So I copied the animals for
my, ah, animal book. [pause] 30:45 

JW: About the year you were at the Normal School, it was a very big class.

OWH: Wasn't it?

JW: Yeah, [crosstalk]

OWH: I don't know how many were in, ah, the group. But you can see from that picture that there, ah, it was a
very large group. And as I looked at it the other day I thought, "Well, how did those few teachers look after such
a large group?" See,

JW: You must have had a very long day, did you, taking, or, ah, big classes?

OWH: Oh, I can't, ah, remember that, particularly, except for, ah, Dr. MacLaurin in the, ah, auditorium for Psy,
Psychology and Class Management. And then Miss Riddell who taught the, ah, singing had us in the auditorium.
... Look at the airplane out there, isn't that pretty? Ahm, and, ah, who else?  31:46 Of course our literary, ah,
afternoon, I think it was always on Friday afternoon, met in the auditorium.

JW: And you'd all fit in there wouldn't you?

OWH: We'd all sit in there, yes. There was a gallery. Yes, there probably still is, and, ah, the students had to
occupy that, too. Uhm,

JW: Did you get to know many of the students from out of town?

OWH: Well, Hilda was from out of town and, ah, well, ah, let's see. Ah, I had a, a friend called Nanc Gracie.
Where she is now or what's happened to her I don't know. She was from out of town. A great many of them were



from out of town. I would say a minority were from, ah, in town.

JW: Oh,

OWH: Yes, ... a great many were from out of town.

JW: Because the out-of-towners had to board.

OWH: Yes.

JW: And they, ah, those who I have spoken to from out of town said they really didn't get much of a chance to
meet too many of the locals because, [crosstalk]

OWH: Well, you see we didn't have, ah, social activities. Of course, some of them had. You know, there were
some, ah. There was one girl, [laughs] there, I, I don't, I don't remember seeing her picture. Ah, Hilda Cody
Johnson, and she was quite the, ah, jazzy lady. She, but she was a very, ah, very nice companion. But I can't
imagine her not having a social life. And of course the basketball teams, too, would have. And it was only old
stiffs like me that, ah, that didn't have much of a social life. But I was so embarrassed at my height that, ah, you
know, I, I, just didn't like to be in, ah, too large a group. Ah, Mary [Fritz?], I think her name was [inaudible, the
girl] Now, it may not have been. She looks, thought, something like one I had as a friend at, ah, University, ah,
was from out of town. Well the ones that were from town would be the graduates of, ah, 1923, at Victoria High
School and Oak Bay High School.

JW: Did you go straight from High School into the Normal School?

OWH: No, I went, ah, to, ah, Victoria College and, ah, in 1921, ah, to 1923\. And, ah, we had a lot of fun there.
Actually, going to Normal School after Victoria College was a real let down. You know, we felt as though we
were treated like children and really we were somebody, we were second year graduates. [laughs] One was a
fourth year graduate and he was a very fine lad. That was Claude Campbell. Here is a picture of him. [crosstalk]
And he was the brother of Herald Campbell who is still living and, ah, who was, ah, ah, Superintendent of
Education in the, ah, Department of Education, eventually. One time before that he was, ah, now I don't recall
whether he was principal of the Normal School at one time. I think he was. And he became, ah, a
Superintendent of Education in Victoria District. It wasn't called District 61 then, or I don't imagine what, that's
what, ah, it was. And but Claude left us at Christmas time.

JW: Well you were able to do that, weren't you, if you had a degree,

OWH: Well he was a graduate, you see, but, uhm, we, ah, superior sixth year graduates had to stay a long time
[laughs]

JW: What certificate did you get when you finished your Normal School?35:46 

OWH: Uhm, oh, I'll have that certificate rolled up somewhere. I guess it's in my safety deposit box or
somewhere. I'm not quite sure. Maybe here with another, with my, ah, uhm, ... college certificates.

JW: The students who left as Christmas had a different certificate, did they not, than the [crosstalk, inaudible]

OWH: Well I can't remember many living, leaving at Christmas but maybe they did. Ah, if you wait just a moment
I'll look in that roll I have, and I may have the certificate that I, that I got.

JW: When you were at the Normal School did you ever have the little garden plots?

OWH: Oh, yes! We each had a garden plot of all the stupid things. [laughs]

JW: What did you grow? Do you remember? [crosstalk]

OWH: I think we grew vegetables. See, this would be, I went in 1923, and war had been over about five years.
Oh, no, that wouldn't be the reason. The reason would be, I think, that a number of us would be going out into
the country to teach and probably [laughs] they didn't have vegetables there, I don't know, and we would



probably, ah, teach gardening to the children. But there were very good farms around North Saanich so I never, I
couldn't teach those children anything. They could [crosstalk]

JW: Did you enjoy doing that gardening?

OWH: No! Not a bit. And, ah, when time went on, ah, I made a vow when I was 9 years old that I would have our
home garden look as good as the garden at Government House. And so, ah, ah, later on, many years later on,
well, I was employed at home at 9 years of age at 50 cents a month to do the gardening. But there, [laughs]
there was a Chinaman that helped me out and, ah, then eventually, uhm, chiefly because of the war, and the
expense of going, ah, back to, ah, New York for Summer School, I was going to get my Master's there, you see.
But I had two more years to go and, ah, well I simply couldn't afford it. And, ah, so I started in on our garden.
And it became a delightful spot. Not to work in but to go out and sit in and to mosey around in early in the
morning or in the evening but I loathed the work. [laughs]

JW: Hmm, I've heard a lot of those little gardens up at the, the Normal School. Do you remember what area, was
it in front of the school? [crosstalk]

OWH: The, ah, area was on the west side of the school, ... along Richmond Road, that area, and ah, how far
down, whether it came down to, ah, Lansdowne Road, I'm not quite sure. But it was in that vicinity.

JW: Did everybody have their own plot or did you go together?

OWH: Yes, what I recall are small plots. Now whether, ah, oh surely, when you look at the number of students
we must have shared them. And as far as hoes and rakes and what not are concerned I haven't a clue where
they came from. I know I didn't take them from home. [laughs] And I can't remember any produce.

JW: No, I guess it would all come about after you had left.

OWH: That, there used to be, I think, in some of the public schools in Victoria, probably about that time, gardens
in which the children worked. But, ah, we didn't have any at North Ward, and, ah, nor did we have any at, ah,
Girls Central.

JW: Your first school after you graduated was, ah,

OWH: At North Saanich, uh, huh, [crosstalk]

JW: That was classed as country, almost, wasn't it?

OWH: It was what?

JW: Classed as a country school out there,

OWH: Oh, very definitely. And it was on the site, uhm, it was on Centre Road which ran halfway between the
East Road and the West Road, ah, from now what is now known as Mills Cross Road and MacTavish Cross
Road. And, ah, it was on the site of the present, ah, uhm, airport.

JW: You were lucky to get a job, weren't you, cause you [crosstalk]

OWH: I was very lucky, I told you, there were seventy applied for this little job of primary class, and, ah, so I was
very, very fortunate.  And I got a most delightful, ah, ah, report from the secretary of the School Board when I left
to go back to university. And then when I completed university, ah, that would be April, May, sometime like that
when I graduated, ah, this Miss Scanlan was so adorable, she, ah, no! no! Not Miss Scanlan. It was the North
Saanich School Board asked me if I'd come back and teach for two months because the, ah, teacher who had
had the primary grades, ah, had been appointed in Victoria. And, ah, so I went out and I went back to my old one
room school. [laughs] It was very nice. I was very lucky. It was a one room school but it was brand new when I
went into it. So new that the varnish wasn't quite dry on some of the shelves and some of our things got a bit
marked but, ah, course, it was very primitive, you know, it didn't have any water or anything like that. But they
had delightful children and that's what matters. I was scared stiff of the inspector! I saw him coming down, a car
coming down the road one day. And this tall man got out of the car and I thought, "Oh, [yee gods], it's the



inspector. So he came in, Mr. Stewart was his name, and, ah, he, uh, I suppose he sat at the back of the room
and watched me teach. And, ah, after he had, ah, after the children went, I asked him if could ask him some
questions. [laughs] And so I proceeded to pelt him with questions and he [laughs] I think he pretty well said, "Lay
off." [laughs] He said, "If I had, I don't know many, how many other schools to inspect, then, ah, that he would
probably like, he could stay longer and answer the questions. [laughs] He's quite different to, ah, the inspector I
had at Langley Prairie where I went after I graduated. And, ah, I was principal of a four room school, elementary
school and it was in poor shape. The furnace shot sparks out of the back into the little furnace room. It was quite
cold there, you see, being just, ah, west of Mt. Baker. And, ah, the, ah, cement slab at the front door used to
heave up so the door wouldn't open. And I was just terrified that there'd be a fire. So I used to go to every School
Board meeting and clamour for some, ah, correction of this defect of the furnace and something to do about the
slab at the door, and, ah, finally, a man came to, ah, the school and, ah, I thought, ah, that he'd come from the
School Board. I never dreamt that he was an inspector. So as soon as he came, I escorted him to the furnace
room [laughs] and to the front door and so on. So we looked around and then when we had finished he said,
"Well, may I sit at the back of your room?" [laughs] Oh, wow! [laughs] I realized he was the inspector. [laughs]
However, I went on, ah, and he was more patient than Mr. Stewart. He did stay quite a while after school and
listen to questions [laughs]. And somebody said after, "Oh, well, he was a lady's man [laughs] That's why he
stayed." [laughs] 44:27 

JW: Do you think you were really well prepared for all your experiences when you went to Normal School? Or
did you, they prepare you for what was going to happen?

OWH: Well you see I was going into a primary class and I certainly wasn't prepared for that. But, uhm, I was, ah,
when I got into the, ah, grades, ah, I felt, seven and eight, ah, I was better prepared for them. And, ah, I, ah,
although, I, I was thrilled with the way in which little children learned. I was far too tall and all the floors were
oiled. And if they hadn't been oiled I could have sat on the floor and I'd have been their height. As it was, I had to
sit at my desk or on a chair and, ah, listening to umpteen children do their oral reading simply made it so difficult.
I had to prop my eyes open to keep awake. [laughs] But, ah, in other activities, it was, ah, it was, wherever I had
to be at the board, and have them at the blackboard, it was alright. But some activities you like to do, well,
reading, for example, you like to sit in a circle or something like that new, it was, ah, it was just impossible. I was
far too tall. Although I have a second cousin who's 6'4 and he trained for teaching primary classes. [laughs]
However he's given it up for construction work, I think. [laughs]

JW: Did you ever have a chance or did you often use the library up at the Normal School? It was quite a small
little place.

OWH: I can't remember the library. I can remember the library at Victoria College in the Craigdaroch Castle but I
never used it once. [laughs] Whereas when I got to UBC and to the University of Washington and Columbia, I, I
was in the library all the time. I don't know, ah, I don't think we were nearly as well educated although we had
excellent teachers. But, ah, I don't know how we prepared papers and that sort of thing.

JW: You had to prepare the whole lesson then take it out to the school for your practice teaching.

OWH: Oh, in, ah, the lesson, we had to, ah, prepare a lesson plan, and this plan, I believe was checked over by,
ah, probably our home room teacher or maybe the teacher of that particular subject. Ah, probably the teacher of
the particular subject. I can remember going to Mr. Denton once for a piece of paper on which I was to, ah, draw
a map, I suppose. And, ah, you know those sheets of manila drawing paper that the schools used to have. Well,
he got, gave me a piece that was torn right across the half. So, ah, I didn't take very kindly toward that attitude.
But maybe because I went to him it was because I was having a Geography lesson and he was the, ah,
Geography instructor. Uhm,

JW: Did he ever [crosstalk]

OWH: And then ah, that good lesson I guess it was the most good lesson [laughs] I taught on the Northern
Andean States for Miss MacKillican. Ah, he helped, may have helped me with that. I can't remember. [crosstalk]

JW: Did he ever come and, ah, observe you or give you a criticism? [crosstalk]

OWH: Well, often, I, I think that's what they did. Ah, I, ah, I cannot remember a single occasion on seeing one of
them sitting in the room. But they must have been there. I can remember the Home Room teacher of the class I



was teaching. Or the teacher of that particular subject because even in those days, ah, in the, ah, in the
elementary school, I think they had in the school like North Ward, anyway, they'd, ah, rotate amongst teachers.
For instance, ah, but I taught there after I had my degree. Ah, I taught English and Art and History and Health
and, ah, whether I taught Nature Study or not, and I was the teacher responsible for the School Annual. And, ah,
or it was an annual but it was just a mimeographed deal, you know.

JW: I, ah, I was reading in your yearbook, ah, '24 yearbook that there was a paper put out called "Five to One."

OWH: Oh, I can't remember. [crosstalk]

JW: It came about it says in here because there was five girls to every one boy.

OWH: Oh, it looks like it from the, ah, picture, doesn't it? Ah, I can't remember it, but maybe there was.

JW: Did you ever have any contact with, uhm, any of the workers like the janitors or the gardeners up at the
Normal School?

OWH: I, ah, loved the janitor. His name was, ah, Mr. McMichael. And, ah, he was father of, ah, Bill McMichael
who after Mr. Honkin became my principal, and he, ah, he was just a marvelous person and I liked so much
working with him. Uhm, the children loved him, too. This summer there was a, uhm, a, a lady in the elevator who
game me a, oh, who said oh, there was a very handsome Chinese gentleman looking for you today but you were
out. And she had written his name down on a piece of paper. And this was Lim Lee. And, ah, he, he thought he'd
been at the Central Junior, ah, High School when it was started. But he wasn't quite correct on that but, ah, I
wanted to write to thank him for looking me up and so I had to get in touch with some difficulty with, ah, a brother
and, ah, the brother's wife, ah, gave me the information and gave me his address and she said, ah, he wanted to
see his two favorite teachers. And, uhm, so I said, "Who was the other one? Did he see the other one?" [laughs]
And she said, "No," and, ah, she couldn't quite get the name and I said, "Oh, that was Mr. McMichael" and then
she said, "Yes." So, uhm, and I tried to get Mr. McMichael on the phone to tell him but I wasn't lucky and I let
things slip by but I'll have to put it on his Christmas card [laughs]

JW: How, did you often see the janitor? Did you go down to see him? Or was it, he seemed to be quite helpful to
all the students.51:37 

OWH: Oh, I guess he was just about! I can never remember going to him for any particular help. But I liked him
very much. Ah, I can't remember any particular incident but it might have been more of the boys that would go
down to his particular quarters. I don't know. But I, I remember him very distinctly and I liked him very much.

JW: Did you ever see many gardeners around because the grounds were [crosstalk]

OWH: The grounds were beautiful, weren't they? No, I don't remember ever seeing the gardeners but they were
probably there all the time. I can remember sitting on the grass and  just joying, enjoying it very much.

JW: You'd often eat your lunch outside.

OWH: Oh, yes.

JW: Was there a lunch room [inaudible]?

OWH: I can't remember a lunch room in the place.

JW: Where would you eat your lunch [crosstalk, inaudible]?

OWH: I suppose we ate in our classrooms. I, I really don't remember. But, ah, being me, I know I ate [laughs]

JW: That building is so beautiful.

OWH: It really is.

JW: It, ah, they changed it quite a bit recently but, ah, when I was up there they had the, the glass in the doors



and,

OWH: Yes,

JW: You could see in the classrooms,

OWH: Yes, that's right. Ah, beautifully constructed just like the Victoria High School and all that was beautifully
constructed. And, ah, ah, it was used, this Normal School, as a hospital during the war.

JW: Oh,

OWH: I remember, ah, one of my doctors was up there, Dr. Norman Cook. Ear, nose and throat man. And, ah, I
needed his help and I had to go up to the Normal School to get it. Ah,... [pause] 53:24 

JW: Has there been a reunion of, of your class?

OWH: No. Now this is what Hilda Pri, Prideman wrote to me about on her Christmas card last year. Why didn't I
get cracking on organizing a group? Well, I was feeling so much, ah, like anything but organizing a group that I
didn't do it. But I told Blossom Johnson about it and, ah, I think we'll really have to do it. Now, do you get the, ah,
you would get the, ah, UVic, ah,  Alumni Quarterly. Well, you can see in this last number how quite a few
schools, ah, quite a few years have got busy. But I'm sure if I just had the, ah, initiative I would get, ah, some of
these people who I've recommended you're seeing, ah, together and, ah, we could get something going. I think
we should. I did get a group together one time at summer school up at UVic, ah, up at Victoria High when they
put the Provincial Summer School on there. I got a group of girls together and I said, "Now, I want you to come
up and we'll have a party in our, my back garden. And [laughs] when I got up there I thought, "Huh! I don't see
some of the people I expected to be there. And here I'd invited the people of the year after [laughs] my year
[laughs] so it shows you I have rather short memory. [laughs]

JW: I was looking in your annual and it's got a, a Bessy Ibister,

OWH: Isbister.

JW: Isbister. Is that any relation to your [crosstalk]

OWH: It might have been.

JW: Home Ec. instructor?

OWH: She might have been. I don't know, what does it say? No, it doesn't say so. And I can't remember what
she looked like but we could find that out very easily, couldn't we? She was in, ah, class, which was this? Well,
she was in, ah, Dorothy Hargreaves class. She must have been in my class. And she ... was from Victoria. And
these aren't numbered. Now how the dickens am I going to know her? They, uh, the, uh, annuals from Victoria
High always had the pictures numbered. And this girl was Mary Hall and, ah, she married an expert cabinet
maker who did some, ah, cabinet making for me and I can't remember his last name. And, ah, not, well, it was
this year but, ah, a few months ago that a very attractive paper boy came to collect the money and, ah, he was
going to Camosun College and taking Fine Arts. And I said, "Well, why didn't you go out to UVic?" And he said,
"Well, I couldn't afford it." And, ah, "Oh", I said, "would you like to see some of my pictures?" So he came in and
he was looking at them and, ah, I don't know, we got onto the subject of sailing, oh, boats, I guess it was in that
picture of Brian Travers Smith. And he said, "Oh, my grandfather, ah, has a boat, and he said, "We go out on it
all the time." And I said, "Well, who's your grandfather?" And he told me. And here he was this girl's husband,
you see, and my cabinet maker. And I said, "Oh, I'll show you something he made for me." And he said, "Well,
ah, is his name on the bottom of it?" And [laughs] I said, "I don't know, I never, never turned it up." But, ah, I was
going out to have a reunion with this Mary and her husband but never did. Now, let's see, Isbister. I couldn't tell
you which one she was. I see I have very few of them marked.

JW: A lot of people used their, their year at Normal School and their teacher training as a stepping stone to
something else. I'm just wondering if, if you found that the majority of, of your classmates or, or of that year
stayed in teaching.



OWH: Well, you see people from the interior I would loose track. Now I was a great friend of Nanc Gracey and I
just lost track of her. I mean you, I went into my job and are so busy at it and that sort of thing. That was one
thing that I had against teaching and Mr. Cornett was right. Uhm, he didn't, ah, ah, it's not from probably the
same. He, he was right in that we should have been out in the world and doing things before we taught children.
But, ah, I found it very restricting. We were so busy. Of course, out at North Saanich I had a whale of a time.
They had dances out there in the Community Hall and they were very kind to me. Uhm, very kind. And we had a
camp out a Deep Cove. At the time I was about 15 and, ah, I'd take the kids down to the camp and we'd have
fun there, you know, on a Saturday or something like that. Ah, but when I got into grades seven and eight at
Langley Prairie, oh, I had to work like the mischief 'cause I didn't know anything really. [laughs] And the woman I
had lived with was so distressed she said, "Ah, I did go, I, I did go out to the Community Hall. I played badminton
and I used to play [Whist?] and the principal, at least the super, ah, the chairman of the School Board insisted
that I go and play bridge. And, ah, was it bridge or 500, ah, I, it was something I knew nothing about and, ah, the,
ah, there was another girl that I lived with, a Lillian Reid who taught in the High School when we belonged to the
same sorority at UBC. But, ah, ah, I didn't do much else. I was going back the next year and I was going to run a
program in the Community Hall for the kids because I thought they should be there playing badminton and
volleyball and that sort of thing but I didn't go back for the second year. I, I got a job in Victoria quite
unexpectedly.  

[The End]